Who do you think will the the End Game Boss for Dragonflight?

[Niwes]

That sounds an awful lot like a "LFR bad" post with not much else of substance. You don't even explain why LFR existing is a negative result of this, and other than that just say "lot of problems" with no clear indication of what you're talking about.

Not like having completely disconnected raids would be better.

naaaah. i even was feared to add that, just for EXACT that post you wrote. i KNEW such a post will come up then. it was just the next best example i found. i do NOT say: „LFR just exists cause of cinema-mode and could be removed if there is no story in raids“. exactly the opposite. there should be something to raid also for ppls liking the difficulty level of LFR. but JUST for that reason. and for NO other reasons.

all the „other problems“ you can read in many many threads (just search mmoc). i am way too lazy to list them all. but LFR coupled to that „it’s just a cinema-version“ thing argument, was just the next best in my mind. if there is no story coupled to raids, you wouldn’t even heard the term cinema-mode once in life. which had been a good thing imo. but it’s not the case. so there you see negative effect1 of coupling raids and story: it gives LFR haters a stupid argument.

oh, and just to clarify: i am not a LFR raider. i just solely not care about it at all tbh. but i think options are always good and there should also be something for the LFR type players. i am wether „pro“ nor „contra“ LFR tbh. just saying this before someone derails this into some weird LFR discussion.

[Moose184]

I imagine of the three it will probably be Galakrond.

Chromatus never had a huge impact on WoW itself, since he was only ever in a book and I don't think he's ever been brought up in the game proper.

Murozond we know the circumstances of his death, so if he's the "final" boss of the expansion it would end with him escaping so we can kill him in the End Times later (earlier?), which wouldn't feel good to not get to bump off an expansion's main baddie (side-eyes Garrosh).

Galakrond is something that's known of in-game, talked about a fair deal, and is a thematic existential threat to everything, not just the dragons, so his return, however they do it, would set him up best as the final boss.

The End times fight was only a future where deathwing wins right? So his death isn't that future anymore.

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In raw power Chromatus easily beats the other two, in terms of cosmic implications Murozond is unmatched, while Galakrond is just a big dragon.
He's more fit for a background threat than as a boss, we're smaller than his toes, too big to really count as a contender for a straightforward bossfight, given Deathwing's reception.

Personally? I think it would be Y'shaarj.
The only truly destroyed old god, returning after millenia via the "long route" after regenerating from the void.

He knows Azeroth's location, the old gods are known to arrive as meteors slamming into planets, the red star above Darkshore has been expanding for a while now, and it would perfectly serve as an event to upend the current geography of Azeroth and allow them to convincingly refill the world again, one part at a time.

Additionally we've seen plenty of activity from the old gods after their deaths; C'thun warped Cho'gall and has been bathing in Azerite, Yogg-Saron's bodily extensions in the form of the faceless were out and about in Ulduar during Legion (and his body that extends through Northrend got a pretty nice azerite infusion thanks to the jailer using icecrown citadel, made of saronite, as a conduit to sap Azeroth), Xal'Atath (or perhaps just "Atath" as "Xal" means "tool" or "weapon" in Shathyar) is freely roaming, and of course everything points to N'zoth having contingency plans for contingency plans.

Oh and the elements can't exactly shake their ties to the old gods that easily, between decay magic rising up even for gnolls to use and crazy elemental dragon cults i'd say everything points towards an old god as the final boss.

Where do they ever say that old gods regenerate in the void? The other old gods didn't die. C'thun and Yogg-Saron never died they were just imprisoned.

[Rtrain]

i would go even a slight bit further (and i say this as a hc/m raider for 10+ years): one of the biggest errors Blizz ever did, was starting to link an xpac‘s story to raids. telling the overall arch of an xpacs story is a job of quests, cinematics and open world / character content. not of raids. ofc should raids have some (side) story. but the general story (incl. the major threads and iconic characters) should imo never been told in raids.

just solely think about LFR. you can argue about LFR whatever you want. good or bad. but Blizz created 1 more constraint for themselves, with linking raids and story. regardless what you think about LFR, they have added a constraint: „when we tell a story in raids, there has to be a way so everyone can see the story, so there must be a way everyone can raid“. and this is just 1 example of many many previously discussed problems, or problematic constraints Blizz created, in older threads.

imo this leaded, over more than the last decade now, to a LOT of problems, wow would not have, if they had not linked story and raids in the first place.

if i had been Blizz, i had never did this, from day1, or at least after WotLK. imo this did nothing good to the evolution of the game.

The raids have been the main story line of every wow expansion. I’m not sure what you’re talking about.

Aq and naxx were the major stories of their patch. Illidan was the major story of the entirety of bc, the majority of the raids are centered around weakening his grasp on Outland by attacking his Allies. Wrath was all about fight lich king.

Raid content has always been either the major story of each patch or the main arc of an expansion. Once in awhile we get side raid stories but they’re much less common.

[Niwes]

The raids have been the main story line of every wow expansion. I’m not sure what you’re talking about.

Aq and naxx were the major stories of their patch. Illidan was the major story of the entirety of bc, the majority of the raids are centered around weakening his grasp on Outland by attacking his Allies. Wrath was all about fight lich king.

Raid content has always been either the major story of each patch or the main arc of an expansion. Once in awhile we get side raid stories but they’re much less common.

yes, that’s what happened so far, the last 17 years. but why you tell me that? maybe you misinterpreted my post?

[loras]

The End times fight was only a future where deathwing wins right? So his death isn't that future anymore.

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Where do they ever say that old gods regenerate in the void? The other old gods didn't die. C'thun and Yogg-Saron never died they were just imprisoned.

All other creatures with strong cosmic allignments regenerate in their "home" dimension; elementals, demons, creatures of death have all been shown and mentioned. The player demon hunter technically returns to the twisting nether because the fel infusion linked him to it, giving him an "immortal soul", as per their starting areas.

Even Argus, death-aligned through his torture, returned to his new "home" dimension.

Why would the old gods be any different if they are mostly superpowered fleshy amalgamations of void stuff?

And that is presumably part the reason they imprisoned them; their removal was hugely destructive and their return virtually guaranteed. Ironically this may have meant that Y'shaarj suffered the least bad fate at the hands of the titans, as he would simply return and knew this.

[Nymrohd]

The raids have been the main story line of every wow expansion. I’m not sure what you’re talking about.

Aq and naxx were the major stories of their patch. Illidan was the major story of the entirety of bc, the majority of the raids are centered around weakening his grasp on Outland by attacking his Allies. Wrath was all about fight lich king.

Raid content has always been either the major story of each patch or the main arc of an expansion. Once in awhile we get side raid stories but they’re much less common.

The idea is, maybe it shouldn't be how it works. Sometimes it should be a climactic solo fight instead. They build the story around the raids which is fine. But imo there is at least one exception. In 6.0 the endboss was NOT Mar'gok (or Cho'gall); they were incidental fights. No, the storyline's end boss was Garrosh and Azuka, both fought after story scenarios. Thrall stole our kill for the first one ofc . . . but that's where the story culminated. Highmaul was a side mission.

So why not do that more often? Let's have storylines finish at the end of a questline, not have the boss promise to get us and our little dogs and then move into a dungeon/raid. Then make the scenarios repeatable content you can do three man like back in MoP, maybe give a HC version that is somewhat challenging and possibly once or twice per xpac give a solo version that is Mage Tower level of challenging.

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All other creatures with strong cosmic allignments regenerate in their "home" dimension; elementals, demons, creatures of death have all been shown and mentioned. The player demon hunter technically returns to the twisting nether because the fel infusion linked him to it, giving him an "immortal soul", as per their starting areas.

Even Argus, death-aligned through his torture, returned to his new "home" dimension.

Why would the old gods be any different if they are mostly superpowered fleshy amalgamations of void stuff?

And that is presumably part the reason they imprisoned them; their removal was hugely destructive and their return virtually guaranteed. Ironically this may have meant that Y'shaarj suffered the least bad fate at the hands of the titans, as he would simply return and knew this.

I have this theory that could work (and make the Void enemies more interesting later on).
The Old Gods are effectively outgrowths of the Void Lords. They tore pieces of themselves and chucked them across the cosmos. So what if the Old God Y'shaarj is just part of the Void Lord Y'shaarj. It's the part that landed in Azeroth but it is not separate to the Lord but just an expression of it and there may be dozens of Y'shaarj's out there enveloping different worlds (or just still traveling through the cosmos trying to hit a planet). This would make the Void Lords more interesting since they'd be tied to what we have already experienced.

[Moose184]

All other creatures with strong cosmic allignments regenerate in their "home" dimension; elementals, demons, creatures of death have all been shown and mentioned. The player demon hunter technically returns to the twisting nether because the fel infusion linked him to it, giving him an "immortal soul", as per their starting areas.

Even Argus, death-aligned through his torture, returned to his new "home" dimension.

Why would the old gods be any different if they are mostly superpowered fleshy amalgamations of void stuff?

And that is presumably part the reason they imprisoned them; their removal was hugely destructive and their return virtually guaranteed. Ironically this may have meant that Y'shaarj suffered the least bad fate at the hands of the titans, as he would simply return and knew this.

So they never said it then? You're just assuming. Also yes they imprisoned them because of the destruction Y'shaarj caused with his death but where in the lore does it ever say they knew he could one day return?

[Berkilak]

Would be cool if the final encounter wasn't a boss fight.

In another game, maybe something a little more artsy... perhaps. But in WoW?

[Maljinwo]

If we fight Galakrond, all we need to do is throw rocks at its mouth until he chokes on one again

[Berkilak]

My money is on an OC that was really behind Galakrond and Deathwing and all the draconic big bads all along.

[huth]

My money is on an OC that was really behind Galakrond and Deathwing and all the draconic big bads all along.

New Blacksmithing material: Donut Steel.


More seriously, though, the term is generally applied to fan creations, not those of the authors themself. Mostly because it is rather meaningless in that context; Every character in game would be an OC in that case.

[loras]

So they never said it then? You're just assuming. Also yes they imprisoned them because of the destruction Y'shaarj caused with his death but where in the lore does it ever say they knew he could one day return?

They don't say a lot of shit, calling this "assuming" is just willful ignorance.
In Uldir they were quite clear that they were fervently looking for a cure for the old god affliction, while ambiguous it does show that they were aware of its persistence; if simply killing them worked they could have just kept spamming titanforged to finish off the remaining old gods in a more surgical manner.
And seeing as Sargeras had created Marduum by then they evidently already knew by then that various cosmic aligned creatures will simply return, even if killed by a titan.

And it's not like they haven't shown us and even told us time and again that they do not die at all; Y'shaarj's disembodied heart happily started beating again, il'gynoth was thrilled to see us again after regenerating in N'zoth's realm (itself an example of void creatures regenerating in another realm), Yogg-Saron blatantly manifesting his extensions during Legion in spite of his physical death, C'thun's corpse actively talking to and corrupting Cho'gall.

To quote Yogg-Saron's herald: "They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle.".

And by now we know that in spite of all the ifs and buts he was not lying.

[Berkilak]

New Blacksmithing material: Donut Steel.


More seriously, though, the term is generally applied to fan creations, not those of the authors themself. Mostly because it is rather meaningless in that context; Every character in game would be an OC in that case.

I am aware. It's just that many new characters being introduced have that fan-made OC feel, if you catch my drift. Rather than emerging naturally from the setting and narrative, they feel like a character that was created only with the loosest connections in mind requiring only the most superficial of understanding of the lore (like most fan fiction), then shoehorned in. The lore of the game is then bent to accommodate them. Calia is the most glaring example.

[Myradin]

I am aware. It's just that many new characters being introduced have that fan-made OC feel, if you catch my drift. Rather than emerging naturally from the setting and narrative, they feel like a character that was created only with the loosest connections in mind requiring only the most superficial of understanding of the lore (like most fan fiction), then shoehorned in. The lore of the game is then bent to accommodate them. Calia is the most glaring example.

What? Calia's been around in the lore for ages. She didn't do much, but she existed.

Now her randomly becoming undead so she can more easily become their leader is a bit sketchy, but adding Calia to the game is actually a more natural addition.

[Berkilak]

What? Calia's been around in the lore for ages. She didn't do much, but she existed.

Now her randomly becoming undead so she can more easily become their leader is a bit sketchy, but adding Calia to the game is actually a more natural addition.

As you say, her worst elements were revealed as soon as they actually gave her character a modicum of focus. Her being a stub on the wiki prior to that is immaterial.

[Moose184]

They don't say a lot of shit, calling this "assuming" is just willful ignorance.
In Uldir they were quite clear that they were fervently looking for a cure for the old god affliction, while ambiguous it does show that they were aware of its persistence; if simply killing them worked they could have just kept spamming titanforged to finish off the remaining old gods in a more surgical manner.
And seeing as Sargeras had created Marduum by then they evidently already knew by then that various cosmic aligned creatures will simply return, even if killed by a titan.

And it's not like they haven't shown us and even told us time and again that they do not die at all; Y'shaarj's disembodied heart happily started beating again, il'gynoth was thrilled to see us again after regenerating in N'zoth's realm (itself an example of void creatures regenerating in another realm), Yogg-Saron blatantly manifesting his extensions during Legion in spite of his physical death, C'thun's corpse actively talking to and corrupting Cho'gall.

To quote Yogg-Saron's herald: "They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle.".

And by now we know that in spite of all the ifs and buts he was not lying.

Again assumptions. They didn't kill them because they were afraid of the damage it would cause to Azeroth not because they knew they could regenerate. C'thun and Yogg aren't dead just defeated and sleeping.

[loras]

Again assumptions. They didn't kill them because they were afraid of the damage it would cause to Azeroth not because they knew they could regenerate. C'thun and Yogg aren't dead just defeated and sleeping.

Now there is an assumption if ever i saw one, Magni, as speaker for Azeroth, said that he believes that Azeroth is now be free of the influence of the old gods after N'zoth's demise.
That does not imply sleeping at all.

And that guy gets his info directly from Azeroth and numerous titanic machines and creatures, it's pretty much the best we've got.


Additionally, and this is a contentious dource imo, the devs themselves commented on there being "no consequences" for their deaths that Deathwing's cataclysm as well as various other events implied otherwise. This can be taken to imply that it was an intended mistake on our part to kill them, and that the reason for the absurd turmoil Azeroth has bern going through in the years preceding Azeroth are partially as a result of our mistakes, and that more may be yet to come should they return somehow.

[huth]

Again assumptions. They didn't kill them because they were afraid of the damage it would cause to Azeroth not because they knew they could regenerate. C'thun and Yogg aren't dead just defeated and sleeping.

They were most certainly killed. That just doesn't mean they're gone forever, but they have to come back the long way.

[Moose184]

Nowhere does it say they died. It only says they were defeated and we've been told all along that we couldn't kill them. When we beat C'thun in vanilla he wasn't dead.

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They were most certainly killed. That just doesn't mean they're gone forever, but they have to come back the long way.

What long way? You're making the assumption that they can regenerate like demons can. No where in the lore does it say that. It never says we killed them only defeated them. We beat C'thun in vanilla but we didn't kill him.

[Cynical Asshole]

What would be really original is to have either Sabelian or Wrathion as last boss. Basically the one who didn't get to be the leader of the black dragonflight becomes the end boss, but with a twist.

Players who sided with Sabellian will see Wrathion, and players who sided with Wrathion will see Sabellian. The boss will have the same mechanics regardless, but the players in the raid will see and hear the opposite character, depending on who they sided with.