2023-2024 NBA Thread

[xskarma]

"NBA has suspended Suns owner Robert Sarver for one year from the Suns and Mercury organization based on league investigation. Sarver has also been fined $10 million and complete training program focused on respect and appropriate workplace conduct."

https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/st...18124177391617

Get rekt Sarver.

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Robert Williams is getting arthroscopic surgery on his repaired left knee to clean it up. Out several weeks. Training camp starts next week, so this means he'll miss the start of the regular season too.

Hospital Celtics...

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lol Sarver is taking his ball and going home. (ie Selling both his teams)

Good riddance.

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I waited till this press conference so we knew what the Celtics response was in more detail.

To me, in short, it;s just fuck Ime for what he did, and fuck him a second time for fucking up what should have been an amazing season. He the world in his hands with everything open to him for him, his career and his team, and he fucked it all up by being a mysogynist dick to people he worked with.

The fact it took time for his all to come out and people having been under the impression it was all consensual means Ime used his position to influence someone lower on the totempole than him and I'm VERY glad that person had the strength of character to come forward and that the Celtics not only believed her, but made sure it was properly punished.

As to the season and how the team will fare with a last minute Interim Coach having to take the reigns, we'll see. I'm expecting there to be breakdowns and a feeling out period early in the season as the coaches and team get to grips with the new situation, but I fully expect the Celtics to be in the mix in the post season again. Our guys are too good not to be.

So, yeah, fuck Ime a third time, for letting his players and team down too. I don't think he can realistically be back in a year to coach again. How can you stand infront of those guys and be a leader of them with that hanging over every interaction.

There would have to be some kind of rehabilitation process first, where Ime does actual work to show he understands his mistakes and has learned from them. Even then it;s hard to move on again together after this.

[StillMcfuu]

I waited till this press conference so we knew what the Celtics response was in more detail.

To me, in short, it;s just fuck Ime for what he did, and fuck him a second time for fucking up what should have been an amazing season. He the world in his hands with everything open to him for him, his career and his team, and he fucked it all up by being a mysogynist dick to people he worked with.

The fact it took time for his all to come out and people having been under the impression it was all consensual means Ime used his position to influence someone lower on the totempole than him and I'm VERY glad that person had the strength of character to come forward and that the Celtics not only believed her, but made sure it was properly punished.

As to the season and how the team will fare with a last minute Interim Coach having to take the reigns, we'll see. I'm expecting there to be breakdowns and a feeling out period early in the season as the coaches and team get to grips with the new situation, but I fully expect the Celtics to be in the mix in the post season again. Our guys are too good not to be.

So, yeah, fuck Ime a third time, for letting his players and team down too. I don't think he can realistically be back in a year to coach again. How can you stand infront of those guys and be a leader of them with that hanging over every interaction.

There would have to be some kind of rehabilitation process first, where Ime does actual work to show he understands his mistakes and has learned from them. Even then it;s hard to move on again together after this.

Does anyone know what he did?
There is zero congruence between reporting, only saying it's an "inappropriate relationship" and I've seen a few saying affair which made me think he was banging a players wife. You make it sound like he raped someone, but I haven't seen any reporting that says anything nonconsensual happened.

I legit have no idea what happened and to me if he was just having a relationship in the organization (another employee) other than breaking team guidelines, this all seems overblown. Like he could have assaulted someone and gotten less of a punishment.

[Espo]

Does anyone know what he did?
There is zero congruence between reporting, only saying it's an "inappropriate relationship" and I've seen a few saying affair which made me think he was banging a players wife. You make it sound like he raped someone, but I haven't seen any reporting that says nothing nonconsensual happened.

I legit have no idea what happened and to me if he was just having a relationship in the organization (another employee) other than breaking team guidelines, this all seems overblown. Like he could have assaulted someone and gotten less of a punishment.

I believe the only firm information to come out is that he was in an intimate relationship with a woman, who was a subordinate, in the Celtic's organization. Grousbeck said he committed "multiple violations", but didn't say anything else.

While I agree that punishments are inconsistent for a variety of things (e.g. the assault scenario you mentioned may have gotten someone less)--I'd encourage folks to look at this situation independently. Udoka is in a position of power over everyone in that organization who aren't part of Boston Basketball Partners or Brad Stevens and that creates an incredibly uncomfortable position for anyone to be in whom he is pushing sexual advances toward. Almost every respectable company has rules governing this type of behavior and they largely all would have said to fire him. The fact that the Celtics went heavy-handed with a punishment (sort of, and based on what we know), shouldn't be considered overblown just because other organizations (the NBA and the NFL) get it wrong.

That said--It's hard not to think there's some rough details that aren't out yet (some speculation is that it was with multiple women and/or some were unwanted advances, etc) given some of the cryptic tweets from "insiders" and/or former players who are closer to this. I do agree that that PR around this seems really high if he was in a "consensual" (if that's possible) relationship with a staffer and it was nothing more. But if any of the previous is true, why wouldn't they just fire him? Who knows? (well, someone does). I'm guessing he does get fired and/or resigns once the dust settles though.

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But if any of the previous is true, why wouldn't they just fire him? Who knows? (well, someone does). I'm guessing he does get fired and/or resigns once the dust settles though.

The first, written public statement of the Celtics said that he was suspended for now, but that this might not be the end of it. My guess given this and the rest of the situation and the fact Udoka has already said that he;s not resigning is that the Celtics are actually looking to fire him with cause so they are not out multiple million dollars for firing him.

Not sure how much more time and research and lawyer conference they might need to confirm that, but that's my guess.

There's also a chance they don't want to fire him and have him sign up with some other team with everything he knows about installed systems and plans.

There's ALSO a chance that they really haven't decided if they want him back next year or not and are just playing to the widest range of possible outcomes for themselves. Maybe Udoka shows real contrition and works on his flaws and makes it doable to bring him back. Maybe the interim is not good enough and they are nto happy with the coaching candidates next offseason and decide that Udoka back even with baggage is better than whatever is out there.

There's also the chance they are just being maximum dicks and string him along this season and then let him go next offseason just to make sure he wasted a whole year just like the organization did.

Who knows, really?

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This Wembanyama stuff is ridiculous. I was like "sure, just another tall prospect that teams are going to tank for, nbd" but seeing him in action against the Ignite, holy hell.

Now I can kind of see what the hype around Lebron must have been, and from what I have seen so far, Wembanyama might have a similar impact.

Just ridiculous moves and shooting touch, for a guy that is taller than most centers in the league. How the hell do you defend against that?!

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I think it's fairly safe to think that if Charlotte doesn't get their act together very very quickly that Lamelo Ball is just going to get out of there first chance he gets.

They weren't very good last year and seem worse this year. They seem to have blown their draft, cause both guys looked lost out there tonight. They STILL have a disgruntled Gordon Heyward on the roster, who wanted out, but who obv. has no value with his current contract. They brought back Clifford as a coach who's already proven to be middling at best. Just bad, bad, bad, off season.

Their lone brightspot is Ball, and I can't imagine he's happy with the way things have gone so far in his career.

[StillMcfuu]

I think it's fairly safe to think that if Charlotte doesn't get their act together very very quickly that Lamelo Ball is just going to get out of there first chance he gets.

They weren't very good last year and seem worse this year. They seem to have blown their draft, cause both guys looked lost out there tonight. They STILL have a disgruntled Gordon Heyward on the roster, who wanted out, but who obv. has no value with his current contract. They brought back Clifford as a coach who's already proven to be middling at best. Just bad, bad, bad, off season.

Their lone brightspot is Ball, and I can't imagine he's happy with the way things have gone so far in his career.

I swear Jordan just let talent walk this off-season because he didn't want to pay them, saying something to the effect of "win with less." I find that ironic coming from a guy who spent his whole career with another player who is also arguably top 5 all time, and had a manager who had a really good eye for talent and made great moves. I love Jordan, I do think he is probably the goat, but he takes entirely too much credit for the Bulls. They were a title contender without Jordan.

Thoughts from the preseason, a lot of teams look largely the same. Lakers will be a 39 win team, because they have 2 more guys to have random hero ball games and keep them in it, but they look bad. Minnesota is my current West dark horse to take a chunk out the division, Gobert gives them paint defense which they desperately needed and the rest of their guys are solid defenders both individually and as a team. GS will probably still be just as good, they are too well coached and outside of major injury and more Green-esque events causing big distractions, they will be quality. Chicago is dead in the water without Lonzo, they'll still be a playoff team, but with him they are top of the division and without him they are mid to bottom. Did Miluakee make any changes this off-season? My biggest issue with them is they always require one of their players to have a big game to win, they are still built that way. Nets are my biggest questionmark right now. Unless Nash really starts cracking as a coach, I expect a mid-season firing. Simmons is looking alright, but they need to make him primary Ball handler, what's the point of having a doppelganger of Magic Johnson and not using him in that manner? At least they don't have him just standing around in the dunkers spot anymore, Rivers is really showing his lack of flexibility with not being able to find anything for Simmons outside of standing on the low baseline. I have a few ideas for Simmons, but I doubt Nash or a Rivers would ever use him in the manner I imagine, more of a Kerr style coach would be best.

Everyone else looks similar, Denver is a danger with Porter, Heat are still the Heat, Clips are dangerous with Kawhi. Grizzles will continue being the Grizzles. Don't think I'm really missing any major teams, maybe Cleveland might start making it ugly for other mid pack east teams.

[Espo]

I find that ironic coming from a guy who spent his whole career with another player who is also arguably top 5 all time.

I'm being a dick by picking one thing out of your post, but I can't help myself on this one: You surely aren't saying Scottie Pippen is even arguably top 5 all time, right?

For what it's worth--I do agree with you that Jordan definitely had good help: Pippen was great (top 30-40 great), Rodman was great, his overall role players were solid. But absolutely no one (well, one person maybe) thinks Scottie was top 5 all time.

Jordan, Lebron, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Oscar, Hakeem, Irving, Malone (both of em), Curry, Dirk, West, Baylor, Giannis, Wade, Stockton, Thomas, Robinson, Garnett--not actually in order, just throwing out the fastest list of guys I could think of, off the top of my head, that are absolutely without-a-doubt better than Pippen.

Again though--absolutely agree with the spirit of your comment! (Jordan had help). I'm just being feisty!

[StillMcfuu]

I'm being a dick by picking one thing out of your post, but I can't help myself on this one: You surely aren't saying Scottie Pippen is even arguably top 5 all time, right?

For what it's worth--I do agree with you that Jordan definitely had good help: Pippen was great (top 30-40 great), Rodman was great, his overall role players were solid. But absolutely no one (well, one person maybe) thinks Scottie was top 5 all time.

Jordan, Lebron, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Oscar, Hakeem, Irving, Malone (both of em), Curry, Dirk, West, Baylor, Giannis, Wade, Stockton, Thomas, Robinson, Garnett--not actually in order, just throwing out the fastest list of guys I could think of, off the top of my head, that are absolutely without-a-doubt better than Pippen.

Again though--absolutely agree with the spirit of your comment! (Jordan had help). I'm just being feisty!

I feel Pippen is definitely in the top 20. I could make the argument that he is top 5 from his resume. Fantastic player, both offense and defense. In many ways he is the first big/slashing wing we had in the league. Definitely a predecessor to guys like KD who can score at will and defend his ass off. The man has 6 championships, and he isn't just a vital part of those teams, he is one of the 2 reasons they have 2 3-peats.
Like I said, I can make a compelling argument for him to be in the pantheon of all-time greats. There are only 2 goats, LeBron and Jordan, but on the next step down you will find Pippen with probably about 20 other guys. And while I would put the Shaqs, Kobe, Bird, Magic ahead of him personally, I look upon him as favorably as I would Curry, Wade, West, Russell, Kareem, Duncan, Robinson, etc... it's a fight in that ranking and Pippen's resume shines above pretty much all others.

[Espo]

I feel Pippen is definitely in the top 20. I could make the argument that he is top 5 from his resume. Fantastic player, both offense and defense. In many ways he is the first big/slashing wing we had in the league. Definitely a predecessor to guys like KD who can score at will and defend his ass off. The man has 6 championships, and he isn't just a vital part of those teams, he is one of the 2 reasons they have 2 3-peats.
Like I said, I can make a compelling argument for him to be in the pantheon of all-time greats. There are only 2 goats, LeBron and Jordan, but on the next step down you will find Pippen with probably about 20 other guys. And while I would put the Shaqs, Kobe, Bird, Magic ahead of him personally, I look upon him as favorably as I would Curry, Wade, West, Russell, Kareem, Duncan, Robinson, etc... it's a fight in that ranking and Pippen's resume shines above pretty much all others.

I think he's closer to top 30 than top 20, but top 20 is certainly a fair discussion--a hill I wouldn't die on for sure.

I get the argument of his resume looking good (compared to those latter guys), but that's a little misleading. Bob Cousy's resume (anyone on those Celtics teams) looks good too (about the same as Pippen's, funny enough), but folks know he isn't in the same conversation as Bill Russell. As Shaq and Chuck would put it--Pippen was a bus rider, not a bus driver. He was one hell of a rider, but he wasn't driving the bus like those guys you mentioned did. He had 2 shots at it--he did an admirable job the 1st year (though ran out of steam in the playoffs), and had the team struggling mightily in the 2nd, before Jordan came back.

So I have to hard disagree on him looking as favorable as Russell, Kareem, Duncan, Curry, etc (those latter folks you mentioned). I don't think you'll find any list, from respectable basketball writers/historians, who put Pippen in that category. Even his on-paper resume does not stack up against those guys. Comparing Pippen to Russell, Kareem, Duncan--that's straight up disrespectful to those guys.

After that though? Yea, I think you can debate it; so once you get into the 20ish range you've got some good arguments. I may not agree, but that doesn't really matter anyway!

[StillMcfuu]

I think he's closer to top 30 than top 20, but top 20 is certainly a fair discussion--a hill I wouldn't die on for sure.

I get the argument of his resume looking good (compared to those latter guys), but that's a little misleading. Bob Cousy's resume (anyone on those Celtics teams) looks good too (about the same as Pippen's, funny enough), but folks know he isn't in the same conversation as Bill Russell. As Shaq and Chuck would put it--Pippen was a bus rider, not a bus driver. He was one hell of a rider, but he wasn't driving the bus like those guys you mentioned did. He had 2 shots at it--he did an admirable job the 1st year (though ran out of steam in the playoffs), and had the team struggling mightily in the 2nd, before Jordan came back.

So I have to hard disagree on him looking as favorable as Russell, Kareem, Duncan, Curry, etc (those latter folks you mentioned). I don't think you'll find any list, from respectable basketball writers/historians, who put Pippen in that category. Even his on-paper resume does not stack up against those guys. Comparing Pippen to Russell, Kareem, Duncan--that's straight up disrespectful to those guys.

After that though? Yea, I think you can debate it; so once you get into the 20ish range you've got some good arguments. I may not agree, but that doesn't really matter anyway!

I don't really like pulling in any pre 80s players in the Goat discussion. While I don't blame them for their Era, I also stand by JJ Reddick saying there were an awful lot of Plumbers and Firemen out there playing. My inclusion of many of them is a pure sign of respect. That 70s to 80s window is my limit.

I feel we aren't really that far apart on opinion of Pippen. I think it all depends on how much you want to penalize him for who he played with. Replace Jordan with another talent and Bulls are still winning championships, same as replacing Pippen, Jordan would still win championships, most likely more than Pip, but that's because Jordan is Jordan and stands alone but right near LeBron.

Sometimes I wish basketball were more like baseball. Baseball is barely different from its itself 150 years ago. Many of those old stats, players, and feats are relevant to today's game. Basketball has changed so much, 3pt line, dribbling, plays, defenses, rules, etc... it's hard for me to quantify pulling a player from a bygone Era and dropping him in with current talent. It's not even about generational improvement of players, it's the raw game and skills. I could see guys like West being just as good, I wonder about Russell, I wonder if Gobert is a more modern equivalent to him. I like Rudy, but I don't think we will be putting him in any top 100 players lists anytime soon.

[StillMcfuu]

Steven A out here saying Kyrie for MVP. I think he's betting on Kyrie burning all his NBA bridges and has to have a huge season to sign for the money he makes now. We will see, but I'm not holding my breath on that one. I don't think he's ever had what I would call an MVP season.

If I had to make my predictions on day 1 of the NBA season.

Luka MVP
76ers and GS finals

It's real up in the air this year though.

I think Joker is going to have another season that will be unquantifiable but no way he is going 3 in a row on MVP. Although if he gets Denver through to the finals they will definitely give him MVP next season out of guilt.

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Celtics looking good, Tatum is absolutely lights out. Looks like old James Harden is back, but without the intentionally drawing fouls nonsense. I know he had 3 3pt fouls so far, but they were all legit contact/close out fouls.

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If I had to make my predictions on day 1 of the NBA season.

Luka MVP
76ers and GS finals

Embiid, in his best Professor Putricide voice: "Bad News Everyone, I Don't Think I'm Going To Make It".



I hate Miami, cause they frequently seem to have the Celtics number, and because their whole culture schtick is just absolute bullcrap, and because Miami fans leave the arena with their team down a couple of points in a PLAYOFF GAME, just because the vibes are bad and they THINK they are going to lose.

I hate the Raptors, cause they frequently seem to have the Celtics number, and because Nick Nurse is THE whiniest asshole hypocrite in a league filled with them (players and coaches).

But,

I hate the Sixers, even though they never seem to be able to do much against the Celtics, because Embiid especially (but Harden too), is just the softest flopping bullshit artist in the entire league.

He very nearly and on purpose injured Smart's arm, and then managed to flop on the ground for just the barest of graze on his ankle when Smart tried to get him to stop and face him him over what he did.

Of course the refs gave Smart a tech for it and the commentators WHILE THE REPLAY OF SMART'S ARM BEING PULLED ON PURPOSE WAS PLAYING were talking absolute nonsense and not even acknowledging what Embiid did. Stan Van Gundy especially just goes "STRONG MOVE" any time Embiid bulldozes someone in the face with his elbow and literally zero acknowledgement of the dangerous plays Embiid makes with regularity and gets away with.


Anyway,

Good win, hopefully more of this come Friday in and against Miami.

[SL1200]

I usually don't cheer for any non Chicago teams, but i sure do like the GSW. Glad they started the Lakers season off right.

[StillMcfuu]

Embiid, in his best Professor Putricide voice: "Bad News Everyone, I Don't Think I'm Going To Make It".



I hate Miami, cause they frequently seem to have the Celtics number, and because their whole culture schtick is just absolute bullcrap, and because Miami fans leave the arena with their team down a couple of points in a PLAYOFF GAME, just because the vibes are bad and they THINK they are going to lose.

I hate the Raptors, cause they frequently seem to have the Celtics number, and because Nick Nurse is THE whiniest asshole hypocrite in a league filled with them (players and coaches).

But,

I hate the Sixers, even though they never seem to be able to do much against the Celtics, because Embiid especially (but Harden too), is just the softest flopping bullshit artist in the entire league.

He very nearly and on purpose injured Smart's arm, and then managed to flop on the ground for just the barest of graze on his ankle when Smart tried to get him to stop and face him him over what he did.

Of course the refs gave Smart a tech for it and the commentators WHILE THE REPLAY OF SMART'S ARM BEING PULLED ON PURPOSE WAS PLAYING were talking absolute nonsense and not even acknowledging what Embiid did. Stan Van Gundy especially just goes "STRONG MOVE" any time Embiid bulldozes someone in the face with his elbow and literally zero acknowledgement of the dangerous plays Embiid makes with regularity and gets away with.


Anyway,

Good win, hopefully more of this come Friday in and against Miami.

No offense, but Smart is also one of the floppiest guys in the league. And the situation with Embiid is a perfect example of the hijinks Smart gets up to. I think Embiid wad a bit rough, maybe... it's hard to tell because he is pulling as he is falling backwards, and it's all because Smart is being a smartass by jamming his arms into another player and getting wrapped up, it's something he does quite often.

On the Celtics though, I'm torn between them and 76ers for finals. My issue is their size depth while having to encounter potentially Embiid or Giannis in the playoffs. But they still looked really good. Idk it's a tough call.

As for Embiid and MVP, with Harden looking very Hardenesque... well hard to argue for MVP when another player on the team is also playing at MVP levels. Giannis always has to carry, although gets bailed out occasionally, Joker always has to carry but should actually have real help this year, but Luka is just a hard carry period.

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Nets playing like a college team after the 2 guys who might have a chance at the NBA check out for the year.


Ayooo.... is anyone even coaching them? The only thing that impressed me is one defensive position they had excellent switching.

Nets offense:
Simmons bring the ball up, 5 out with Simmons handing off to Kyrie/Durant, Simmons sets screen and then goes in into a traditional 4 out and Kyrie/Durant iso weak side.

If Simmons doesn't bring the ball up(when he isn't on the floor) it's a 4 out with Claxton in, the ball gets first pass to Kyrie/Durant and everything breaks down into a, you guessed it, weak side iso.

Also this is a bull shit version of seven seconds or less Sun's except its just a rushed ISO.

[Pendulous]

Time to overreact! The Jazz look...balanced. In every aspect. They look bigger too. And I watched Denver start on a comeback early fourth quarter, and thought "ah shit, here we go again". But even that, they held the lead and kept it too far away. Weird having Clarkson starting, and I think he needs to stay coming off the bench. He didn't look great, and he's basically still doing the things he's always done. That said, Mike Conley was everywhere, doing everything. And all these names I don't know. This Lauri Markkanen guy, wow. I like big guys who can shoot in general. Rookie Kessler with a double double. Vanderbilt fouled out, and I believe Kelly Olynyk was in foul trouble too. So I don't know if the minutes played are something we'll see often. But getting the bench that much time really paid off. Beasley shined. Colin Sexton started off slow but did a lot of things later, including pissing off Jokic. Everyone kept saying this was a tank team. But I don't know. With Gay still around too, they feel pretty deep, and even with a new coach, they have potential.

[StillMcfuu]

Embiid went full passive tonight after getting blocked once by Giannis and Lopez pulled the chair out on him. Honestly has to be frustrating for Harden to have a roll partner that won't attack the basket in half their games. It frustrates the shit out of me that after mid 2nd quarter Embiid would work below the foul line.

[Espo]

Embiid went full passive tonight after getting blocked once by Giannis and Lopez pulled the chair out on him. Honestly has to be frustrating for Harden to have a roll partner that won't attack the basket in half their games. It frustrates the shit out of me that after mid 2nd quarter Embiid would work below the foul line.

I'll preface with...it's only two games. I don't want to overreact too much (positive or negative) based off of that.

But man, this is game #2 that Embiid was a direct contributor to them losing. His stats looked fine against the Celtics (padding at the end), but watching the game: he looked like dog shit, especially on defense. He was a little better on defense against the Bucks, but in general just looked lethargic out there---the Embiid we see at times that looks like he just doesn't want to be there. Overall though--that was maybe the worst half of basketball I've seen him play.

What kind of monkeypaw shit is going on that Harden looks back and Embiid now looks like a dumpster? That said--the Sixers have to clean up their rotations a ton (because they aren't working at all right now) and get value out of their bench--among quite a few other things that you hope get solved as they play more. I'll choose to be optimistic that this is the thing we've seen from Embiid before where he seems to play himself into shape (last season's start wasn't great, either).

And completely agree with the PNR. I cannot understand why Harden and Embiid aren't just nuking teams to death with it. It should be unstoppable. It was borderline unstoppable with Clint Capela. This is a bit if a rhetorical question as, to your point, it's an Embiid thing (but why the hell does he refuse to do it?).