The Emerald Dream: an Expansion or a Patch?

[Flaks]

Patch, please, please, patch and not expansion. Going to the Shadowlands should've been 1-2 patches in my opinion..

I'm not sure what the WoW team has been smoking when they've been making Naz'jatar and N'zoth into patch content and the stupidity of Shadowlands into an expansion.

Shadowlands should have been a super slow build up like N'zoth was and should have been expanded over multiple expansions OR just dealt with a tip of the iceberg scenario in a patch. Not the in between we got.

Emerald Dream honestly was perfectly dealt with in Legion where it created as many questions as answers and didn't just start and end an entire massive world on it's own like Nya'lotha or Naz'jatar.

[Maljinwo]

Patch at most

Expect to have yet another night elf nature themed zone tho

[Caiphon]

That's a really curious bit of reasoning right there.

Y'shaarj was killed by the full power of the titan of time, Aman'thul, who intervened because his minions could neither kill nor subdue the old god.
The others too had been defeated though, by the titanforged.

C'Thun, Yogg-Saron and N'Zoth were described to be 'imprisoned', Y'Shaarj was 'killed'. The former three returned, the last one didn't. Blizzard has directly stated that C'Thun and Yogg-Saron were 'dead' for all intents and purposes. Yes that is a retcon of previous lore stating they can't be killed without gravely injuring Azeroth, but then this is Blizzard and retcons aren't anything to write home about. Perhaps Azeroth recovered a bit during the tens of thousands of years between then and now and can take the abuse, it's up to the writers as usual. I think Blizzard's direct statements take priority over speculation regarding how Y'Shaarj was somehow killed differently from the other two.

And that's the whole thing, they literally told us time and time again that they do not even care about death because it is nothing to them; we may have even released them by killing them in the sense that they have now had the time to freely regenerate, or at least C'thun and Yogg-Saron.

They may be able to return from death, it's not exactly an uncommon feat at this point anyway with demons being reborn in the Nether, wild gods being reborn in Ardenweald etc. The point is that Y'Shaarj was killed a while ago and has not yet returned after tens of thousands of years. Unless he's a particularly lazy bum it's not unreasonable to speculate that the other dead old gods won't be returning for a long time.

It's also curious that you do not seem to realise that the void, as a representation of entropy is literally the definition of a so called Xanatos' gambit (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p.../XanatosGambit), a.k.a. a force that will, regardless of the way his plans can possibly go, always win.
Now the joke is of course that so long as Warcraft goes on we will defy them, but it doesn't matter how long because eventually it will always die anyway and thus the void will always win. This also means that they can always return, they are literally undefeatable. We can only postpone the ineviteble until it no longer matters to us.

Many works of fantasy/science fiction have some form of 'void' lurking in the corners of the universe but they differ in scope and power depending on the setting. In WoW the void is one of six fundamental forces shaped by the First Ones at the beginning of the universe. And as far as we know it is not superior to the other five forces, nor was it granted inevitable victory over the others. The fact that it was shaped by the First Ones shows that WoW's void is not the single, absolute and inevitable force destined to consume all creation like in some other settings - there is at least one faction (First Ones) out there that exist above its level.

There is also one other aspect, and that is that the old gods may be more than just void creatures, as they readily employ plenty of other magic, primarily death magic in the form of plagues and "the curse of flesh", but also have no trouble subverting holy, fel (Xavius), nature (the emerald dream), order (see the many corrupted titanforged constructs) and perhaps even holy (we already know of the Naaru - void god interaction).
Which brings us to another trope that may explain the old gods better to you: Evil may have evil intentions, but in the process of pursueing them may create an evil greater than they can handle or intended.
Frankenstein is something of a classical take on this.
As such it may be interesting to note that the old gods may be more than just void, and that the void may not be entirely in control of them.

Many cosmic entities have already demonstrated they could wield forces other than that of their home realm. Eonar is a member of the Order Pantheon that nevertheless has great powers over life. Elune is presumed to be of the Life Pantheon yet grants arcane and shadow abilities to her followers. Even the Titanforged Freya, Odyn and Helya wield the powers of Life, Light and Death respectively. The old gods using powers outside the void does not make them all that special at this point. By canon the old gods are creations of the Void Lords so they are very much of the void, and are an order of magnitude below Pantheon-level as they were created by (presumed) members of the Void Pantheon. In terms of hierarchy they're roughly equivalent to the Titanforged and the Naaru (direct creations of a Pantheon), though that doesn't necessarily mean the power level is the same.

All in all I think you're overestimating the void and its spawn based on other games or stories (where they are the one absolute force in the universe) when Blizzard has roughly dictated where it sits in terms of power and influence.

[Deferionus]

Should've been an expansion but Blizzard decided to throw away all of the expansion ideas people cared about in Legion and BFA.

Spot on. In these two expansions, we burned through

Emerald Night/Dream - original topic.
Argus - this should have been an exansion in itself following Legion where Sargeras was the final boss.
Azshara - should have been a naga expansion. There were tons of potential storylines around the night elves/naga that could have been explored.
Ny'alotha - Should have been an outland/draenor sized expansion dealing with the old gods, their corruption, and ending those storylines.

The fact these were not expansions is just absolutely shocking and poor planning for Blizzard far as potential existing storylines that had draw for players. Can't help but feel they were just trying to close out plots in the WoW storyline for some reason.

[username993720]

Regardless, whetever the Dream as an area may be, expect it to be like Ardenweald AKA a zone.

Why would the Dream be a single zone when it has so many aspects?

The problem isn't the theme or the setting.

The problem is the team has lack of resources to create sufficient content to make the setting feel worth-while.

Such things like Shadowlands (or any expansion for that matter) feeling stretched out is usually because of content being stretched thin and them not having resources to maneuver to expand on new content, since they also have to be gearing towards the next expansion as well.

Cataclysm, WoD, BFA, Shadowlands could have all done with some extra love.

Cata was supposed to have War of the Ancients and Abyssal Maw raids. There was plenty cut here.
WoD was completely revamped from the original Mongrel Horde idea, and they cut out the entire Shattrath raid, Faralohn, and the Ogre Isles
Shadowlands was rumored to have its story completely revamped 6 months before release. The rumors of Thros raid would have been welcome.

What wouldn't it happen in Dragonflight but inevitably will happen in an Emerald Dream one?

Helheim is literally described as separate from the realm of the living, and where souls of "unworthy" vrykul go. As far as we knew at the time, that is one afterlife. Valhalla is literally described as where the souls of the worthy vrykul go. Again, as far as we knew at the time, that is another afterlife.

You're trying to assert knowledge you couldn't have at the time.

Yes, it's the Vrykul afterlife. An artificial one made by a Titan keeper.

No, it doesn't:
"[The Emerald Dream] is the verdant realm of the Dragon Aspect Ysera."
"the Dream represents the spring and summer of the cycle of life"
"In this world of untamed nature, druids gain insight and oneness with the Great Cycle"
And more.

Yes, it was only described as green. Just like Shadowlands was only described as shadowy. That'd be old lore by the time we get there. Again, you are very conservative.

It's not a dream in its literal sense. It's just the name. Just like the Emerald Dream is not a dream of literal emeralds.

It is. That's where dreamers go to. That's why the Nightmare takes over it. The Emerald is just the color.

Oh please not... this will be just shadowlands in green again...

Stay. on. azeroth... please...

And if they ever do it ONLY make it like mechagon. An sidestory with no consequence. I am a bit filled with cosmic stuff for now.

There's so much you can do on Azeroth...

Patch at most

Expect to have yet another night elf nature themed zone tho

I don't believe they'll repeat that.

[Triceron]

What wouldn't it happen in Dragonflight but inevitably will happen in an Emerald Dream one?

I was talking about the problem that people are bringing up about previous expansions, and saying it's more about the content that was lacking making those expansions feel stretched thin.

Dragonflight isn't even out yet, we don't know what content it will have and whether it will feel lacking or not. Same with Emerald Dream. Not sure what you're asking here really.

[Ielenia]

Yes, it's the Vrykul afterlife. An artificial one made by a Titan keeper.

It is still an afterlife.

Yes, it was only described as green. Just like Shadowlands was only described as shadowy. That'd be old lore by the time we get there. Again, you are very conservative.

I'm not. We had hints that the Shadowlands were not just "shadowy". That "shadowy" thing we see when we die is literally just the in-between. Again, we had hints about afterlives for quite some time before Shadowlands.

It is. That's where dreamers go to. That's why the Nightmare takes over it. The Emerald is just the color.

It is not a literal dream. You're literally calling it a "dream" because the name of the place is "Emerald Dream". That is not a dream, that is literally a parallel dimension.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

If they wanted to I suppose but I wouldn't have any ideas. I see people plenty say Nyalotha could of been a whole expansion but...not a lot of........what it would be.

[Xilurm]

An expansion.

Also, it doesn't really matter if we've dealt with Xavius, Blizzard can write stories for the expansion from nothing. They are literally doing it for DF. Well they also did it for Shadowlands and while the main story was bad, the side quests and all the other stuff was decent.

Also, just because it's the emerald dream doesn't mean we will get 5 zones of pure green foresty design. Anyway things like the ED and Azshara should've been expansions. There's literally no reason why something so big should be just a patch. That argument makes no sense, especially since we're literally getting an expansion from what could've been a tiny island off the coast of Northrend.

[Kokolums]

i just want playable satyr.

[ManjiSanji]

The Emerald Dream should have been an expansion. There's so much opportunity to do interesting things with it.

But after Shadowlands...I don't think I want to see what Blizzard would do.

[Masternap]

Sorry to tell you, but I'm at almost 100% certain that in Blizzard's opinion Val'sharah + Emerald Nightmare + Druid order hall completely covered that already. There's nothing left to explore. I have no idea why you even think this would still be a unexplored content. It's not, it's already over.

[Iheartnathanos]

Spot on. In these two expansions, we burned through

Emerald Night/Dream - original topic.
Argus - this should have been an exansion in itself following Legion where Sargeras was the final boss.
Azshara - should have been a naga expansion. There were tons of potential storylines around the night elves/naga that could have been explored.
Ny'alotha - Should have been an outland/draenor sized expansion dealing with the old gods, their corruption, and ending those storylines.

The fact these were not expansions is just absolutely shocking and poor planning for Blizzard far as potential existing storylines that had draw for players. Can't help but feel they were just trying to close out plots in the WoW storyline for some reason.

I fully believe it is the hubris of Danuser, who thought people would accept the Jailer as the new big bad. He swept these plots away to clear the table for his boring nonsense. Looking back on BFA, its obvious now why the war campaign was so poor: it served only as an expedient prelude to Shadowlands.

[username993720]

I was talking about the problem that people are bringing up about previous expansions, and saying it's more about the content that was lacking making those expansions feel stretched thin.

Dragonflight isn't even out yet, we don't know what content it will have and whether it will feel lacking or not. Same with Emerald Dream. Not sure what you're asking here really.

It felt like you implied that only outer-azerothian expansions are doomed to be bad.

It is still an afterlife.

Is the Emerald Dream an afterlife too? It was said to be where Wild Gods go before Shadowlands came out. The Twisting Nether is where demon souls go when they die. Would you consider it an afterlife as well? You are aware that you didn't know anything about Halls of Valor and Helheim before Legion, right?

I'm not. We had hints that the Shadowlands were not just "shadowy". That "shadowy" thing we see when we die is literally just the in-between. Again, we had hints about afterlives for quite some time before Shadowlands.

Really? Did you know about Bastion, Ardenweald, Maldraxxus and Revendreth before Shadowlands?

It is not a literal dream. You're literally calling it a "dream" because the name of the place is "Emerald Dream". That is not a dream, that is literally a parallel dimension.

"The creatures of Azeroth can visit the Emerald Dream either physically or via dreams, as the realm's name indicates."

"The Dream can be affected by all dreamers to a minor and temporary extent."

"Others claim that this strange place had always existed in some form, a dream born from Azeroth’s slumbering world-soul."

"Since that time, all druids have periodically hibernated while their spirits wandered the dreamways. This hibernation is not some sort of physical requirement for druids, though; rather, the hibernation was a communion with the Emerald Dream."

"In the aftermath of the Second War, Krasus entered Ysera's domain of dreams using a poison that nearly killed him since death could be compared to the deepest sleep."

That argument makes no sense, especially since we're literally getting an expansion from what could've been a tiny island off the coast of Northrend.

Exactly.
Both were unfinished zones in vanilla alpha. Yet, here we are with a Dragon Isles expansion.

Sorry to tell you, but I'm at almost 100% certain that in Blizzard's opinion Val'sharah + Emerald Nightmare + Druid order hall completely covered that already. There's nothing left to explore. I have no idea why you even think this would still be a unexplored content. It's not, it's already over.

Do you really think that's all an entire dimension has to offer? I don't believe so. You've got Dragonflight as proof that they're continuing its storyline, disproving what you just said about Legion's content.

[LionSinMaikeru]

Did you miss the part of the video where Taliesin states that Shadowlands also should have been a Patch? His point is that the content was stretched too thin for an expansion, and that caused a lot of issues with Shadowlands.

I don't know this Taliensin person, but they don't sound too bright.

A concept cannot be "stretched too thin" it's the result of a lack of innovation behind the scenes.


Northrend & the Broken Shores were originally depicted as being much smaller than what we got in WoTLK & Legion respectively. But they literally expanded and gave us enough content that it didn't feel inorganic.

The issue is not that Shadowlands as a concept was limited to where it would be stretched thin. It was that the developers / powers that be didn't fully flesh it out and create enough content.

The same could apply to just about any expansion location.

[SoundOfGuns]

Do people still watch Taliesin, that absolutely useless fanboy, who somehow manages to be the second coming of the poggers-soy meme?

Im not sure we will see much of the Emerald Dream anymore. Blizzard made it a Raid with the Emerald Nightmare, and if anything Blizzard ever did and does right now is any indication, they will not put effort in to give us more here. For them, this is handled. I gladly eat my shoe if its wrong, but ... like... so far, i don't see a single hint Blizzard got any less lazy or learned anything out of SL as far as listening to its users do, so i won't get my hopes up.

Unless we get the entire Alliance to pester them for 16 years like they did for Highelves.

[shoc]

There are no more rocks left to turn over in the Warcraft lore, find a different game to play.

[Ielenia]

Is the Emerald Dream an afterlife too? It was said to be where Wild Gods go before Shadowlands came out. The Twisting Nether is where demon souls go when they die. Would you consider it an afterlife as well? You are aware that you didn't know anything about Halls of Valor and Helheim before Legion, right?

Yes, the Emerald Dream is sort of an afterlife as well, considering that is where the wildlife of Azeroth go when they die, and so do the Wild Gods. Ursoc ended up in the Shadowlands because we had to kill him in the Emerald Dream, remember?

Really? Did you know about Bastion, Ardenweald, Maldraxxus and Revendreth before Shadowlands?

We didn't have to. All we needed to know that the Shadowlands was more than just "shadowy Azeroth". And we did know that. Even back in WotLK we had a big hint of that, through the quest chain in Icecrown that had you search around the world for a way to save a soldier from becoming undead, until eventually the Naaru comes to take his soul "to the Light".

"The creatures of Azeroth can visit the Emerald Dream either physically or via dreams, as the realm's name indicates."

That doesn't prove that the Emerald Dream is an actual dream.

"Others claim that this strange place had always existed in some form, a dream born from Azeroth’s slumbering world-soul."

This is disproven by the very first paragraph in that section:
"Freya, a creation of the benevolent titans, created the Emerald Dream[14] to serve as the underlying blueprint for the planet Azeroth."
How can it be an actual dream... if there was no one to dream? The simple fact your line starts with "others claim" should've clued you in that what you got there is not fact, just opinions from the denizens of Azeroth.

[Triceron]

It felt like you implied that only outer-azerothian expansions are doomed to be bad.

Even if that were your logic why would you apply that to Dragonflight?

[username993720]

Im not sure we will see much of the Emerald Dream anymore. Blizzard made it a Raid with the Emerald Nightmare, and if anything Blizzard ever did and does right now is any indication, they will not put effort in to give us more here. For them, this is handled.

Then, you miss the obvious hints.

There are no more rocks left to turn over in the Warcraft lore, find a different game to play.

Pretty sure there are.

Yes, the Emerald Dream is sort of an afterlife as well, considering that is where the wildlife of Azeroth go when they die, and so do the Wild Gods. Ursoc ended up in the Shadowlands because we had to kill him in the Emerald Dream, remember?

Why do we need 2 animal afterlives?

"An enchanted, mystical forest of rest and hibernation, Ardenweald is where Wild Gods and other spirits of nature travel upon death."

We didn't have to. All we needed to know that the Shadowlands was more than just "shadowy Azeroth". And we did know that. Even back in WotLK we had a big hint of that, through the quest chain in Icecrown that had you search around the world for a way to save a soldier from becoming undead, until eventually the Naaru comes to take his soul "to the Light".

How is that hinting at what we got in Shadowlands? Light is anothed dimension. The only thing it could hint at is the existence of a heavenly place. And, we already knew about the existence of angels through the faith in the Holy Light.

That doesn't prove that the Emerald Dream is an actual dream.


This is disproven by the very first paragraph in that section:
"Freya, a creation of the benevolent titans, created the Emerald Dream[14] to serve as the underlying blueprint for the planet Azeroth."
How can it be an actual dream... if there was no one to dream? The simple fact your line starts with "others claim" should've clued you in that what you got there is not fact, just opinions from the denizens of Azeroth.

The world-soul of Azeroth. Freya obviously didn't create the place. We were told how Titans often confuse "created" with "shaped".

Even if that were your logic why would you apply that to Dragonflight?

Why not? They have as much chance to fail as on other expansions. Like Cataclysm, for example. Or Battle for Azeroth. It doesn't mean all outer-azeroth expansions are prone to fail.