Loot Distribution Holy Wars, Wrath Edition

[garicasha]

Ah, caster jewelry, cloth as BiS for non-cloth wearers, and the infamous "gun as stat stick" debate, we meet again.

In your opinion should a MS/OS pug give priority on MP5 items to healers? For example Sarth 25 drops Wyrmrest Band https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/item=40433/wyrmrest-band

41 stam
40 int
32 haste
67 spellpower
20 MP5

Now this first few weeks that's probably a legit upgrade for most any caster. However, if I'm trying to pug in to a run and see that +hit items are going to DPS as a priority, and that spirit items aren't being prioritized to anyone, then if I also see MP5 items going to DPS...I'm joining a different run.

But I definitely see the DPS' point of view as that item has pretty good stats and not a lot of its allocation is spent on MP5. Nor is MP5 worthless to caster DPS.

It makes a difference what question we're asking. If the question is "Is this an upgrade" the answer would be to let everyone roll. But if the question is "Looking at the Tier 7 loot overall, is letting DPS go after +hit and +spirit and +MP5 the best way?" at this time I think the answer is no. As someone that pugs a lot the question I usually ask myself is "Are these loot rules going to make it tough to find good applicants of every role?" which in this case I feel means MP5 to healers.

But if for example there was a gap in itemization and the ring above was one of the only options to caster DPS, I'd feel differently about the situation. Maybe Trial and its 5 bosses has that issue, but the loot table for Naxx is enormous.

Also I'm not gonna sift through 30 specs worth of BiS lists, but if people want to summarize how good spirit is for the different casters I'm willing to listen.

[kranur]

It's up to whoever organizes the group to decide how to handle it since there is no specific "this is a healer item first and a dps item second".
For warlocks for example 1 spirit = 0.5 to 0.59 spell and many of spirit items become their bis once they are hit capped, simply because other items in the slot have hit on them which is useless.
There was also the case in t6 where the +healing cloak was also bis for caster dps because of the haste on it.

[Kralljin]

It's up to whoever organizes the group to decide how to handle it since there is no specific "this is a healer item first and a dps item second".

This.

While i would generally argue for common sense and say that an Item with Mp5 is a healer item, but then you also open pandora's box and find yourself explaining why SP, Balance and Ele should pass on Torch of Holy Fire (KT Spellpower mace), despite being BiS for them.

Leader makes the group, leader makes the rules.

[garicasha]

Ok so looking at KT's loot, Torch of Holy Fire, a mace, and The Turning Tide, a sword, have very very similar stats (spellpower and haste) where the torch has 20ish mp5 and the sword has 37 crit.

So that issue is mostly solved just by weapon skills, shadow priest, moonkin, and elemental can't equip swords and I don't think mages and warlocks can equip maces. So basically it comes down to what can holy pallies roll on?

Also is spirit good for all 3 warlock specs?

[Athorha]

I'd subtract 15 from dps who roll on mp5 and leave it at that. If anyone complains tell them to not pug and find a guild that has a leader who cares to know bis lists.

[Mendzia]

If i was the leader i would definitely prio healers to MP5 item as i would prio dpsers to hit items.
Haste/crit are for both - simple as that.
Other leaders can have their own idea tho - that is why ML is such good loot distribution system - it gives people choice how to do it.

[Squigglyo]

So as a hit capped caster dps.

+Hit is useless to me.

+spirit items can actually be upgrades, and sometimes even BIS.
With proper research, I know which items arent, and which ones are.

In a guild, this sorta stuff should solve itself.
But in a pug, like your scenario, if any healer is in the group and its an upgrade, not even BIS... screw me? Why am I even there then




The issue isnt
'dps are rolling on healer items'
its
'I dont know what healer items or dps items really are'

+mp5 may be a healer stat, so may spirit. But that doesnt exclude the other stats.
One of my pally's BIS is a leather item... items arent black/white in regards to who 'needs' them based on a single stat

[Natureseer]

This is something I have been wrestling with too as I play a healer and it seems like most groups want to give healers the short end of the stick (i.e. healers can't roll on hit gear, casters can roll on whatever they please.) However I think this may be solely a phase 1 issue, particularly on my realm (I play on the fresh realm Skyfury) so many people are trying to get upgrades wherever possible. Moving into Ulduar, people will likely have the majority of their "final BIS" items and will no longer be interested in minor upgrades that include spirit or especially mp5 (this is a wasted stat for casters, period) and will go almost purely for items that have a combination of crit, hit and haste.

Itemization also improves throughout the expansion, which will also help resolve this issue in future tiers. So for this reason I'm just biting my tongue in most cases, after all tier 7 is by far the easiest tier and gear is plentiful. I say just wait it out and don't throw a fit over any particular item during this phase.

[anveena]

In your opinion should a MS/OS pug give priority on MP5 items to healers?

No. See Torch of Holy Fire. It's bis for moonkins, ele and possibly shadow priest.

[God Save The King]

Also is spirit good for all 3 warlock specs?

Yep, Glyph of Life Tap is used in all three specs, giving spell power based on spirit. All mage specialisations will also use Molten Armour when they dps in a PvE environment, giving them value from spirit as well. Moonkins have Improved Moonkin Form, also giving spellpower from spirit. Finally shadow priests get two talents, Improve Spirit Tap and Twisted Faith, giving power from spirit.

The only caster dps that does not gain value from spirit are shamans. Paladin and shaman healers also gain essentially nothing from spirit as well.

Mp5 isn't really even a 'healer' stat specifically. Druids and Holy Priests get talents that convert spirit to bonus healing, so they will almost always prefer spirit over mp5 if given the choice. Disc/Shaman/Paladin do not have such talents so tend to stack more intellect/mp5 as their talents tend to prefer large mana pools for regen (mainly percent based mana regen, e.g. rapture giving 2.5% mana for each broken shield to disc).

In T7, no healer should be looking to stack Mp5. They might build an endurance set for longer Ulduar fights, but I don't think even Yogg0 will take long enough to value mp5 over crit/haste, though that remains to be seen. My healers personally will pick up whatever mp5 is passed just in case, but I'm not prioritising it, nor are any of my friends/peers. We currently 1-3 heal all t7 fights on 25man, and solo heal our 10 man raids. We can easily go up to 5 healers if needed in Ulduar. I'd prefer to 3-4 heal it and stack crit/haste as healers and finish fights faster than rely on 6 healers will regen stats like we did in original LK.

Mp5 is towards the bottom of all healer's stat priorities unless you actually need it. It's one of those weird stats when the second you have too much, all excess is completed wasted.

[garicasha]

Well if you’re hit capped I wouldn’t say items with hit are useless, although the item might have to sit in the bank for a bit until a different +hit piece can be replaced.

Now I forget, does ICC and other gear late in the expansion have less hit on it?

In regards to Holy Torch, yah gotta let Elemental, Boomkin, and Shadow roll on it because KT doesn’t appear to drop a caster staff. (On my phone, does Sarth or Malygos drop a 226 caster staff?). But yah the mp5 isn’t what’s making that BiS, the lack of a better 226 is.

Geez 1-3 healing sounds a little intense, the two pugs I’ve been in so far were running far more than that. Although I’m guessing the DPS is so much higher.

Good point that mp5 is worthless if finishing the fight with mana, but for casual end raiding I’ve definitely had a few fights where it’s tight, particularly Patchwerk.

[Twdft]

Now I forget, does ICC and other gear late in the expansion have less hit on it?

It's been more than ten years but I remember that you were hitcapped with 4 or 5 ICC items, even with reforging. T10 had almost twice as much secondary stats as T7. I think it started in T9 when your main concern for reforging was to get down to all your caps.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

We had a mage officer get all super heated over the order his name was put in during the awarding of dying curse. This is not a joke. We had 3 in one raid. The master looted said, "Grats player a, player b, and player c" and this mage got mad. That his name. Was where player c was. He was.. heavily disrespected being listed third. When the truth is the addon just kind of shelled them out in from what I can tell was alphabetical order.

Cannot wait to see what happens with this guy once something real happens.

[anon5123]

Spirit is decent for mage/warlock, but mp5 is pretty useless for them. mp5 gear should only go to healers.

[varren]

This is one of the bad parts of Wrath, Spell Power gear is extremely over crowded, especially the lower you go down the armor types. Somewhat remedied in Cata where they more or less force everyone to wear their proper armor type.

[Kikazz]

Ah, caster jewelry, cloth as BiS for non-cloth wearers, and the infamous "gun as stat stick" debate, we meet again.

In your opinion should a MS/OS pug give priority on MP5 items to healers? For example Sarth 25 drops Wyrmrest Band https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/item=40433/wyrmrest-band

41 stam
40 int
32 haste
67 spellpower
20 MP5

Now this first few weeks that's probably a legit upgrade for most any caster. However, if I'm trying to pug in to a run and see that +hit items are going to DPS as a priority, and that spirit items aren't being prioritized to anyone, then if I also see MP5 items going to DPS...I'm joining a different run.

But I definitely see the DPS' point of view as that item has pretty good stats and not a lot of its allocation is spent on MP5. Nor is MP5 worthless to caster DPS.

It makes a difference what question we're asking. If the question is "Is this an upgrade" the answer would be to let everyone roll. But if the question is "Looking at the Tier 7 loot overall, is letting DPS go after +hit and +spirit and +MP5 the best way?" at this time I think the answer is no. As someone that pugs a lot the question I usually ask myself is "Are these loot rules going to make it tough to find good applicants of every role?" which in this case I feel means MP5 to healers.

But if for example there was a gap in itemization and the ring above was one of the only options to caster DPS, I'd feel differently about the situation. Maybe Trial and its 5 bosses has that issue, but the loot table for Naxx is enormous.

Also I'm not gonna sift through 30 specs worth of BiS lists, but if people want to summarize how good spirit is for the different casters I'm willing to listen.

the class has to be taken into consideration,

Mage:
Arcane Mage, they are using more mana than most classes a little MP5 goes a long way to the sustain in their burst window.

Warlock:
More mp5 means they life tap less, they need to life tap once every 30 seconds to get the buff, but Spirit is AMAZING for a warlock, as Spirit is passive mp5/hp5 and also equates to spellpower for warlocks.

Spriest:
The comparison between mp5 to crit/haste gear, if they are hit cap is very little, as they are generally there to buff bot at this stage.

the ring you linked is on NO ones BIS list as their number 1 anyway.

the way we do it:

MS BIS > MS Upgrade (dont care if its mp5 or not for caster healer or dps) > OS > PVP > Greed.

this way people can let you know if its BIS or not, if it isnt BIS for them and someone has marked it as BIS, GG it goes to the person who marked it as BIS.

if only MS Upgrades, everyone should be able to Roll.

only time you stop people rolling on just blind upgrades, is when it is actually BIS for someone in the group, id hate to lose Wraithstrike for instance on my Shaman when its P1 BIS to a balance druid when its not P1 BIS for them, the hammer from KT is.

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Ok so looking at KT's loot, Torch of Holy Fire, a mace, and The Turning Tide, a sword, have very very similar stats (spellpower and haste) where the torch has 20ish mp5 and the sword has 37 crit.

So that issue is mostly solved just by weapon skills, shadow priest, moonkin, and elemental can't equip swords and I don't think mages and warlocks can equip maces. So basically it comes down to what can holy pallies roll on?

Also is spirit good for all 3 warlock specs?

also the sword off KT, and mace isnt BIS for everyone.

Priest, Druid (balance/Resto), Shaman (ele/resto), for isntance use the mace for their DPS specs.
Mages/Warlocks use the Sword or the Staff from 10 Malygos

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No. See Torch of Holy Fire. It's bis for moonkins, ele and possibly shadow priest.

Correct, and Spriest Moonkin, and Ele its BIS for their Resto/heal Counterparts as well

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Well if you’re hit capped I wouldn’t say items with hit are useless, although the item might have to sit in the bank for a bit until a different +hit piece can be replaced.

Now I forget, does ICC and other gear late in the expansion have less hit on it?

In regards to Holy Torch, yah gotta let Elemental, Boomkin, and Shadow roll on it because KT doesn’t appear to drop a caster staff. (On my phone, does Sarth or Malygos drop a 226 caster staff?). But yah the mp5 isn’t what’s making that BiS, the lack of a better 226 is.

Geez 1-3 healing sounds a little intense, the two pugs I’ve been in so far were running far more than that. Although I’m guessing the DPS is so much higher.

Good point that mp5 is worthless if finishing the fight with mana, but for casual end raiding I’ve definitely had a few fights where it’s tight, particularly Patchwerk.

226 caster does exist, but it aint BIS, just because it exists, doesnt mean people want it.

the staff from Malygos 10 is BIS for casters wanting a Staff, the Mace/Sword from KT is BIS for caster dps for 1H/OH

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Spirit is decent for mage/warlock, but mp5 is pretty useless for them. mp5 gear should only go to healers.

this is wrong, some classes have BIS items, even with MP5, as its just the other stat makeups that come with the Mp5, that give people their thresholds, and break points.

Having MP5 on it and saying healer only is the same as saying "sorry your a ret paladin its agi crit/haste gloves no str not for you", even though they are a Rets BIS.

[Orange Joe]

Ah, caster jewelry, cloth as BiS for non-cloth wearers, and the infamous "gun as stat stick" debate, we meet again.

In your opinion should a MS/OS pug give priority on MP5 items to healers? For example Sarth 25 drops Wyrmrest Band https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/item=40433/wyrmrest-band

41 stam
40 int
32 haste
67 spellpower
20 MP5

Now this first few weeks that's probably a legit upgrade for most any caster. However, if I'm trying to pug in to a run and see that +hit items are going to DPS as a priority, and that spirit items aren't being prioritized to anyone, then if I also see MP5 items going to DPS...I'm joining a different run.

But I definitely see the DPS' point of view as that item has pretty good stats and not a lot of its allocation is spent on MP5. Nor is MP5 worthless to caster DPS.

It makes a difference what question we're asking. If the question is "Is this an upgrade" the answer would be to let everyone roll. But if the question is "Looking at the Tier 7 loot overall, is letting DPS go after +hit and +spirit and +MP5 the best way?" at this time I think the answer is no. As someone that pugs a lot the question I usually ask myself is "Are these loot rules going to make it tough to find good applicants of every role?" which in this case I feel means MP5 to healers.

But if for example there was a gap in itemization and the ring above was one of the only options to caster DPS, I'd feel differently about the situation. Maybe Trial and its 5 bosses has that issue, but the loot table for Naxx is enormous.

Also I'm not gonna sift through 30 specs worth of BiS lists, but if people want to summarize how good spirit is for the different casters I'm willing to listen.

Spirit is huge for walocks.

[kranur]

Well if you’re hit capped I wouldn’t say items with hit are useless, although the item might have to sit in the bank for a bit until a different +hit piece can be replaced.

It doesn't matter how you do it, when you get to the point of hit cap, some slots will have the spirit items as bis because there are no haste+crit alternatives. Also the support demo lock will just want almost all the spirit gear.

[Djuntas]

Man I hope no casters rolls on mp5 items. Unless it really is only BIS option.

Anyway didnt read all of OP etc, is this more a talk about how say ele shamans, holy paladins etcs also needs cloth gear for BIS?

[Dalinos]

the class has to be taken into consideration,

Mage:
Arcane Mage, they are using more mana than most classes a little MP5 goes a long way to the sustain in their burst window.

Warlock:
More mp5 means they life tap less, they need to life tap once every 30 seconds to get the buff, but Spirit is AMAZING for a warlock, as Spirit is passive mp5/hp5 and also equates to spellpower for warlocks.

Spriest:
The comparison between mp5 to crit/haste gear, if they are hit cap is very little, as they are generally there to buff bot at this stage.

the ring you linked is on NO ones BIS list as their number 1 anyway.

the way we do it:

MS BIS > MS Upgrade (dont care if its mp5 or not for caster healer or dps) > OS > PVP > Greed.

this way people can let you know if its BIS or not, if it isnt BIS for them and someone has marked it as BIS, GG it goes to the person who marked it as BIS.

if only MS Upgrades, everyone should be able to Roll.

only time you stop people rolling on just blind upgrades, is when it is actually BIS for someone in the group, id hate to lose Wraithstrike for instance on my Shaman when its P1 BIS to a balance druid when its not P1 BIS for them, the hammer from KT is.

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also the sword off KT, and mace isnt BIS for everyone.

Priest, Druid (balance/Resto), Shaman (ele/resto), for isntance use the mace for their DPS specs.
Mages/Warlocks use the Sword or the Staff from 10 Malygos

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Correct, and Spriest Moonkin, and Ele its BIS for their Resto/heal Counterparts as well

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226 caster does exist, but it aint BIS, just because it exists, doesnt mean people want it.

the staff from Malygos 10 is BIS for casters wanting a Staff, the Mace/Sword from KT is BIS for caster dps for 1H/OH

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this is wrong, some classes have BIS items, even with MP5, as its just the other stat makeups that come with the Mp5, that give people their thresholds, and break points.

Having MP5 on it and saying healer only is the same as saying "sorry your a ret paladin its agi crit/haste gloves no str not for you", even though they are a Rets BIS.

Points such as these (although correct in every shape and form) are the reason Cataclysm added Armour Specializations. In Cataclysm, as a Plate-wearer, you get 5% extra Strength from level 40 onwards if all your item slots are of the preferred armour class. Leather gets 5% Agi or 5% Intellect depending on spec, Cloth gets 5% intellect, Mail gets 5% Agi/Int/Str depending on class/spec. That instantly put an end to retri palas using Rogue/Feral druid leather drops, holy paladins using cloth for healing etc and so forth. Those 5% stat modifiers were the nail in the coffin for this gearing strategy, effectively removing it as a viable strategy.