Avaloren

[Cheezits]

Revealed in the prepatch Uldaman books, there is a place called "Avaloren" where heretics that have attacked the Keepers in the past are holed up.




What do we think this location is, and where? The name is definitely related to Avalon from Arthurian legend, and the only time that has ever been used is in Wrath... at the Scarlet fortress of New Avalon.

Heretics + Avalon theme + its off a shoreline + New Avalon is on the west coast of EK = new continent or island east of EK?

[Al Gorefiend]

My best guess is they are laying the breadcrumbs for new continents so they don't instigate lore hounds upset of an entire continent appearing out of nowhere in the lore.

Maybe next expansion we will get a little more tidbits about it before it is used as a location for an expansion later down the line. Pandaria needed very little setup in Warcraft lore to become an entire continent itself, so little bits of info like this may be all we're given before seeing Avaloren as a setting.

[ModernImbecile]

Sounds like something original and fun for once, as far as originality goes in Warcraft in the past decade, as long as it's not inhabited by yet another fucking furry race whose name is the same as the animal it represents but distorted to sound "original".

Personally i'd rather have Pandyr zone in Northrend or another northern zone in order to redeem the clusterfuck that was pandaria, but a man can dream.

[Explorer]

Well if they're planning to give a completely new continent filled with Arthurian lore, celtic theme and stuff, that has some potential.
And it seems that at last it's the other side of Azeroth.

[Vonazak]

That could be fun, but Blizzard will make it a boring island with 4-5 zones like all expansions since bc.

[Aucald]

Avaloren is likely unrelated to the former Scarlet stronghold of New Avalon, although it is interesting that New Avalon is presumed to be near the location of Tyr's Bay from the old WC2 map, possibly the location of King's Harbor in New Avalon - and, of course, named for Keeper Tyr just like Tyr's Hand is.

[Cheezits]

Avaloren is likely unrelated to the former Scarlet stronghold of New Avalon, although it is interesting that New Avalon is presumed to be near the location of Tyr's Bay from the old WC2 map, possibly the location of King's Harbor in New Avalon - and, of course, named for Keeper Tyr just like Tyr's Hand is.

Maybe not at the time of Wrath, but a retroactive lore thing may be very possible. Avaloren "filled with heretics" (Keepers/keeper servants that turned to the Light?) sounds very possibly a Light-based area where the Scarlets are a major force, which pairs with how they are seemingly rebuilding as of BFA but not actually on EK.

If there is "New Avalon", where is the old one?

[Aucald]

Maybe not at the time of Wrath, but a retroactive lore thing may be very possible. Avaloren "filled with heretics" (Keepers/keeper servants that turned to the Light?) sounds very possibly a Light-based area where the Scarlets are a major force, which pairs with how they are seemingly rebuilding as of BFA but not actually on EK.

If there is "New Avalon", where is the old one?

At the time the missive to Odyn was made, the Scarlets wouldn't have existed yet, and we're likely talking pre-Sundering making any guess of where Avaloren actually is difficult if not impossible due to the rearrangement of Azeroth's continents. That being said, would be an interesting coincidence if Tyr later journeyed to the Eastern Kingdoms after breaking away from pre-Sundering Kalimdor, only to arrive in the location where Avaloren once was, unbeknownst to him.

As for New Avalon, the word "Avalon" is generally taken to mean paradise, which would make New Avalon essentially a "new paradise" where the Scarlets hoped to live in peace away from the desolation of the Plaguelands.

[Cheezits]

At the time the missive to Odyn was made, the Scarlets wouldn't have existed yet, and we're likely talking pre-Sundering making any guess of where Avaloren actually is difficult if not impossible due to the rearrangement of Azeroth's continents. That being said, would be an interesting coincidence if Tyr later journeyed to the Eastern Kingdoms after breaking away from pre-Sundering Kalimdor, only to arrive in the location where Avaloren once was, unbeknownst to him.

As for New Avalon, the word "Avalon" is generally taken to mean paradise, which would make New Avalon essentially a "new paradise" where the Scarlets hoped to live in peace away from the desolation of the Plaguelands.

I know that these heretics aren't the Scarlets, but I think they really could be the ancestors of the more Light-based human cultures. So maybe Light worship originated from that place. Do we have concrete origins of the Light worship in some Humans?

As for what you mentioned about Tyr's/King's Bay, maybe they see Tyr as a king?

[Aucald]

I know that these heretics aren't the Scarlets, but I think they really could be the ancestors of the more Light-based human cultures. So maybe Light worship originated from that place. Do we have concrete origins of the Light worship in some Humans?

As for what you mentioned about Tyr's/King's Bay, maybe they see Tyr as a king?

It's entirely possible, and Tyr does have a lot of thus-far unexplained connections to the Light and so forth. It's possible Tyr brought a sect of the early Vrykul with him, who became humans due to the Curse of Flesh but retained their worship of him, which either transformed into worship connecting Tyr and the Light, or else Tyr has some association with the Light. There's no known origin of the Church of the Holy Light which is the main religion of Stormwind and formerly Lordaeron, but the fact that its iconography and things like the Order of the Silver Hand strongly connect it to the legend of Tyr.

I'd say they would probably be more inclined to see Tyr as a god or demigod as opposed to a king, the Scarlets probably named the bay near New Avalon in memoriam for Terenas, the former king of Lordaeron.

[SovietBabeyyy]

My best guess is they are laying the breadcrumbs for new continents so they don't instigate lore hounds upset of an entire continent appearing out of nowhere in the lore.

Maybe next expansion we will get a little more tidbits about it before it is used as a location for an expansion later down the line. Pandaria needed very little setup in Warcraft lore to become an entire continent itself, so little bits of info like this may be all we're given before seeing Avaloren as a setting.

That is there Gold standard. A quest or NPC mentioning a Location never heared or seen before, or a 7th Force, and a Force outside the pattern.

So we have potential 2 additional forces, new places continents.

And than when they feel the need they use it, in a future expansion or patch, depends.

Hell it was mentioned 1,2,3 expansions ago, giving it the „lore approval „.

Option 2

You never hear it again

I am 100% sure when Void/Light stuff is burned, the other „forces“ will appear.

The 7th Force hidden and part of the cosmology or caged or vanished who the hell knows

And the additional force outside the pattern whatever it Is

First ones show up or Dark First one.

This is the story for the next 10 years

Void-Light
Additional Forces mentioned in the expedition report
First Ones

I am convinced Xalatath show up in the end of dragonflight causing nozdormu=murozond

Opening the Void Expansion

Something like that.

[Nymrohd]

I have always wondered what happened to the Naaru that appeared before Mereldar. Maybe they are in Avaloren.

- - - Updated - - -

There's no known origin of the Church of the Holy Light

The church of the Holy Light was founded by Mereldar (the Lake in EPL is named after her) sister to Lordain (for whom Lordaeron was born). The people of the region did remember Tyr's sacrifice and those stories were formative of the ethos of Lordaeron. After Lordain's sacrifice and the end of the Troll Wars, Mereldar had a vision/dream of five luminous inhuman figures that extolled the virtues of holiness, protection, justice, retribution, and compassion. Upon waking Mereldar could use the Light to heal. Others also shared her vision and together they created the Church of the Holy Light.

My assumption had been that those naaru may be sleeping beneath the Lake and that it is their power that makes Light's hope chapel such a powerful sanctified zone. But it could be that the area is indeed sanctified simply by the sacrifice of the many martyrs of the Light there. Which then begs the question where are those Naaru? K'ure appeared before Velen on Argus so he was close when he guided Velen's sight.

[Aucald]

The church of the Holy Light was founded by Mereldar (the Lake in EPL is named after her) sister to Lordain (for whom Lordaeron was born). The people of the region did remember Tyr's sacrifice and those stories were formative of the ethos of Lordaeron. After Lordain's sacrifice and the end of the Troll Wars, Mereldar had a vision/dream of five luminous inhuman figures that extolled the virtues of holiness, protection, justice, retribution, and compassion. Upon waking Mereldar could use the Light to heal. Others also shared her vision and together they created the Church of the Holy Light.

My assumption had been that those naaru may be sleeping beneath the Lake and that it is their power that makes Light's hope chapel such a powerful sanctified zone. But it could be that the area is indeed sanctified simply by the sacrifice of the many martyrs of the Light there. Which then begs the question where are those Naaru? K'ure appeared before Velen on Argus so he was close when he guided Velen's sight.

That's basically what I mean by no known origin - Mereldar beheld some figures and had some visions, but it's an open question as to who those figures actually were. Naaru is the default supposition, but the possibility of other entities remains open. Naaru have never been cagey about openly revealing themselves, nor is their typical MO to appear in visions of religious ecstasy and then disappear, they often stay around societies and civilizations that accept them, guiding and teaching in a more direct manner than with Mereldar's story. K'ure, A'dal, Xe'ra, Tu'ure, and O'ros all have demonstrated this tendency.

[Le Conceptuel]

That's basically what I mean by no known origin - Mereldar beheld some figures and had some visions, but it's an open question as to who those figures actually were. Naaru is the default supposition, but the possibility of other entities remains open. Naaru have never been cagey about openly revealing themselves, nor is their typical MO to appear in visions of religious ecstasy and then disappear, they often stay around societies and civilizations that accept them, guiding and teaching in a more direct manner than with Mereldar's story. K'ure, A'dal, Xe'ra, Tu'ure, and O'ros all have demonstrated this tendency.

To be fair, a Naaru did once appear to Turalyon and promptly pop out while he was in Outland, and the Naaru may broadly have a different approach to dealing with races that aren't in active danger—keep in mind they mainly lived around the Draenei, who were a highly advanced race in active and immediate danger, which may have warranted a more direct approach than they would usually prefer to take. Similarly, before the Draenei were in active danger, the Naaru generally worked behind-the-scenes by gifting them T'uure and the Ata'mal crystal.

[Aucald]

To be fair, a Naaru did once appear to Turalyon and promptly pop out while he was in Outland, and the Naaru may broadly have a different approach to dealing with races that aren't in active danger—keep in mind they mainly lived around the Draenei, who were a highly advanced race in active and immediate danger, which may have warranted a more direct approach than they would usually prefer to take.

It's quite possible, but again, there are a lot of unknown elements to the story. Mereldar could've beheld the spirits of Light-infused individuals, effectively ghosts, perhaps entombed below the lake and exhibiting the same power as seen at Light's Hope Chapel, where a ghostly echo of Alexandros Mograine appears before Darion and the rest of those assembled, apparently called into being by the Light saturating the grounds. Locations strong in the Light seem to have the power to manifest spirits, grant visions, and so forth of their own accord.

[Villager720]

I do like the notions folks are coming up with in this thread regarding Light-aligned Titanforged "heretics" + Avaloren. As noted by others, it'd potentially, finally, explain Tyr's connection to the Light and would make a good bit of sense from a motivational standpoint.

Most of the Titanforged/Watchers exist solely to protect Azeroth by containing Old God (void) contamination. If there were some that slowly recognize that Arcane/Order magic wasn't the best remedy for this (a reasonable thought considering the Titan's machinations to contain the Old Gods fail spectacularly over and over again), it wouldn't feel unreasonable to me.
So when these "heretics" turned their back on the magic of the Titan's (not the mission), Order-supremacists like Odyn (someone shown to not even tolerate peers talking about factual events) trying to assault and destroy them would also track.

What does give me pause though is that there's a belief that these heretics would fracture and turn to infighting - something not exactly common amongst Light-followers (there being just One Path and all that).

[Aucald]

What does give me pause though is that there's a belief that these heretics would fracture and turn to infighting - something not exactly common amongst Light-followers (there being just One Path and all that).

That was the passage in Tyr's missive that made me think that these "heretics" were the proto-Primalists, elemental worshippers who denied and actively tried to fight the Titans' vision of an ordered Azeroth and came into conflict with both the Keepers and the early Dragon Aspects as a result.

[Auxis]

I have always wondered what happened to the Naaru that appeared before Mereldar. Maybe they are in Avaloren.

Interesting. I never heard of how the Church of Holy Light began in the Human kingdoms.

But I wonder if the naaru contacted humanity to truly help them, or if it was the Light's way of putting their chess pieces onto Azeroth?

[Villager720]

That was the passage in Tyr's missive that made me think that these "heretics" were the proto-Primalists, elemental worshippers who denied and actively tried to fight the Titans' vision of an ordered Azeroth and came into conflict with both the Keepers and the early Dragon Aspects as a result.

Tyr mentioned trying to "bring the proto-dragons in line" with his mind-control juice, but I'm not sure how that'd have anything to do with the "heretics" on Avaloren. Why would proto-dragons that don't like the Titans be flagged as 'heretics'? Heretics, by definition, are adherents to contrary beliefs or thoughts within established customs/organizations - but these proto-dragons were never members of any Titan beliefs or organizations. As an illustrative example : plenty of other races continued having relationships with the elements for millennia following the Black Empire's downfall and we don't see Odyn trying to label or destroy them as 'heretics'.

Also worth noting is that within Wreckage Analysis Report, Perethales notes that these 'heretics' must be "made to answer for their crimes against Innaria and the other KEEPERS". Whoever these heretics are, they threatened beings such as Thor and Hodir - something I'm not sure our proto-dragon friends above would be capable of/interested in.

[shoc]

At least they are bothering to leave breadcrumbs to future content instead of pulling it out of their asses for once.