[TV] House of the Dragon

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You don't need to be a robot to do rational thinking after you cool off your anger, you just need to be normal person.

That's a cute notation and all but the real world doesn't reflect that at all people just don't function that way in the real world.

[Syegfryed]

That's a cute notation and all but the real world doesn't reflect that at all people just don't function that way in the real world.

Indeed, people in the real word don't do rational thinking

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Indeed, people in the real word don't do rational thinking

The child like understanding of rational thinking that you have? ya people in the real world don't reflect that, mabye in something like startrek they do but not in any thing resembling real life.

[Jastall]

Indeed, people in the real word don't do rational thinking

The "rational" thing to do is to assume that the party that has opposed you for more than a decade now RE the potential succession crisis is up to foul play when the king dies while you're away and they crown the guy that they support but who was very much not named heir by the king at any point in his life. And while there wasn't the exact foul play than Daemon thinks there was, foul play very much happened from the Black's perspective nevertheless. Logic in the real works based on you coming to conclusions based on what information you have, not having some perfect omniscient understanding of every possible situation. We have that as viewers, characters in the story don't.

Too much stock is put into the assassination thing. It's a grave accusation, and an untrue one, but the very existence of the accusation is a byproduct of Aegon being crowned a literal day after the king bites it. That's what looks incredibly suspicious from the onset.

[Varodoc]

There's little reason to fixate on what actually is true; from the outside the situation is immensely fishy. Aegon being crowned alone is very much a not OK situation that at best can be viewed as an unlawful provocation, at worst an invitation to war given that last time Viserys spoke in public he reaffirmed in no uncertain terms that Rhaenyra was his heir. Whenever he was then assassinated or not would merely be an offense in addition to this main one from the PoV of the Blacks. There's no way for the Greens to not come out of this one looking like shifty traitors from the moment Aegon is crowned.

No one denies that Otto staged a coup d'état and usurped the throne for his bloodline (whether this usurpation can be morally defended or not, is another matter entirely).

It's just funny how Daemon instantly accused Alicent of murder; when, in the end, the truth was something else entirely; as Alicent not only didn't kill the kings, but she was actually comforting him in his last moments, and she even cried as they took his body away.

Again, it really is a shame that Daemon can't get over his decades-long rivalry with Hightower. If he did, he would be able to see that Otto genuinely loved Viserys as a friend, and that Alicent sincerely felt affection for Viserys.

Also, Vaemond lost his head because he accused the king's heir in front of said king and her uncle. That the accusation was true changes nothing about the fact that it was very foolish indeed to say it at that moment and to those people. Daemon is in a position that he can say what he likes. Is it fair of Daemon to say that about a woman that in fact remained faithful to her husband despite their terrible marriage, certainly not, but this is Westeros, things not being fair and your birthright protecting your ass in most situations is not only standard operating procedure but the very bedrock of their society.

The point is not that Daemon should have lost his head... neither should have Vaemond, if you ask me, but I digress (imprisoned? sure. Disinherited? sure. Sent to the Wall? Sure. Executed on the spot? Nope, that was some Joffrey Baratheon shit). The point is that "whore" is a very serious and grave insult to use against a woman, especially against the widowed queen. Daemon should really learn to curb his tongue. After all, he incurred the king's wrath in the very first episode of the show and was almost executed on the spot by the kingsguard, all because he didn't know how to curb his tongue and avoid being so insulting and vulgar.

As Viserys told Daemon in the first episode, Daemon doesn't know how to control myself, and he can easily cut people deeply with just his insults. This last episode proves it as Daemon was even more unstable and crazed than usual.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Indeed, people in the real word don't do rational thinking

People in the real world don't think like robots. ignoring all emotional input is not "rational thinking"

Here's the facts that Daemon had

1) The very day his brother died, he got out of bed and foiled the Green's attempt to deny one of Rhaenyra's children his position as the Lord of Driftmark.

2) His brother died. This, by itself, is not a surprise. His brother had been dying for a very long time. And everyone knew that his death was going to be sooner than later. But the timing of this happening right after he had foiled this attempt by the Greens is suspicious. But, if that had been the only thing out of place, it could easily be ignored.

3) After his brother died, instead of sending Ravens (Dark Wings, Dark Words) throughout the kingdom to announce the death of the king... The Greens decided to hide the Kings death. This is suspicious behaviour.

4) During this time, the Greens moved forward with crowning Aegon...who, despite what Alicent thinks she heard, was not the chosen heir of the King. Anyone that would not swear featly to Aegon was arrested and/or killed. This is not just suspicious...it's treason. It's a fucking coup. And if you are willing to attempt a coup...regicide is not a far leap....after all, in either case if you get caught doing it...it means you die.

5) He knows that Otto, at the very least, wants to keep him as far away from the Iron Throne as humanly possible.

Add all of these things together, Daemon, and anyone else with a fucking brain in their head, would naturally be suspicious. Daemon is a hot tempered person...so he shouts out the very first thing that comes to mind... that Alicent murdered his brother and pushed forward with a coup to put her son on the Iron Throne. He also suspects that the greens will move to have all of them assassinated. The fact that's he's wrong (about the murder at least) does not, in any way, mean that his suspicion is irrational. After all, the Greens did go forward with a coup and Otto had planned to assassinate Rhaenyra and her entire family (only to somehow be thwarted by Alicent getting to Aegon first).

Also, if you go back to the council meeting...the very first thing Beesbury thinks upon learning that most of the rest of the council had been planning to Usurp the throne for Aegon is that one or more of them conspired to kill the King and place Aegon on the iron Throne. And he promptly get "accidentally" killed. So, it's not just Daemon that's suspicious here. Rhanys is also openly suspicious at the rather convenient timing of Viserys naming Aegon as his heir and being held captive in her chambers does nothing to alleviate her suspicion. She doesn't go so far as to say "you and/or your father killed your husband to make your son King" but it's not hard to believe that she's at least thinking that as a possibility. It's just not wise to do to accuse your captor of regicide.

People need to get their tongues out of the greens collective assholes.

[Syegfryed]

The child like understanding of rational thinking that you have? ya people in the real world don't reflect that, mabye in something like startrek they do but not in any thing resembling real life.

Ah yes, its too child-like to think the enemy would not shot themselves in the foot by killing someone who is basically dead when there was no need to, in the worst possible time to raise up suspect ions.

Yes, very child-like, what a joke

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The "rational" thing to do is to assume that the party that has opposed you for more than a decade now RE the potential succession crisis is up to foul play when the king dies while you're away and they crown the guy that they support but who was very much not named heir by the king at any point in his life.

Again, the greens were already ruling the kingdom for six years, killing viserys was straight up counterproductive to their plans, killing him means political dispute over Rhaenyra succession

If he died before or way later, then it would make sense to assume it was murder, again, tis an assumption from anger, emotion, once they put pieces together they would know it didn't make any sense

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People in the real world don't think like robots. ignoring all emotional input is not "rational thinking"

Now you are just regurgitating what the other dude said, you don't need to be a robot to do rational thinking.

You can assume something first on emotion, but again, once you cool off and have time to THINK, and put the pieces together, you know it make no fucking sense, and if you still believe you do then this is in your own limitation.

Imagine someone in a hospital, family see him fine, then one day later he died, you can assume it was medic negligence, but then, you see facts, and see the patient had a serious thing that just became worse overnight

[Jastall]

No one denies that Otto staged a coup d'état and usurped the throne for his bloodline (whether this usurpation can be morally defended or not, is another matter entirely).

It's just funny how Daemon instantly accused Alicent of murder; when, in the end, the truth was something else entirely; as Alicent not only didn't kill the kings, but she was actually comforting him in his last moments, and she even cried as they took his body away.

Again, it really is a shame that Daemon can't get over his decades-long rivalry with Hightower. If he did, he would be able to see that Otto genuinely loved Viserys as a friend, and that Alicent sincerely felt affection for Viserys.


The point is not that Daemon should have lost his head... neither should have Vaemond, if you ask me, but I digress (imprisoned? sure. Disinherited? sure. Sent to the Wall? Sure. Executed on the spot? Nope, that was some Joffrey Baratheon shit). The point is that "whore" is a very serious and grave insult to use against a woman, especially against the widowed queen. Daemon should really learn to curb his tongue. After all, he incurred the king's wrath in the very first episode of the show and was almost executed on the spot by the kingsguard, all because he didn't know how to curb his tongue and avoid being so insulting and vulgar.

As Viserys told Daemon in the first episode, Daemon doesn't know how to control myself, and he can easily cut people deeply with just his insults. This last episode proves it as Daemon was even more unstable and crazed than usual.

What would Daemon getting over it or not change, exactly? The succession crisis is far bigger than his feelings towards anyone. He's not even in the top 5 of people who contribute to it (those being Otto, Larys, Rhaenyra, Viserys and Criston). He was harsh, sure, too harsh, but it doesn't change shit. The moment Aegon is crowned Rhaenyra is out for blood, and war becomes extremely likely, and he'd have followed her into it regardless due to how tied he is to her.

He's also not the only one to think that. Beesbury also accuses the Small Council, to his detriment. That they're both wrong does not matter much; the fact is, the course of events looks extremely suspicious. Hand-wringing about the exact reactions to the coup seems like missing the forest for the trees as far as I'm concerned. The Blacks have been given absolutely no reason to trust the Greens (and vice versa, of course, Daemon would scare the shit out of anyone sane) and from this total lack of trust arises suspicions that are if you ask me rather prudent.

Also, no, the execution isn't Joffrey Baratheon or Aerys level shit. They went around killing important people on whims. A second son levying a very serious public accusation at the king's heir in his own throne room is something no sovereign will leave unpunished. Now Viserys himself would likely have settled for taking his tongue and/or exiling him rather than actual execution which would have been more proportionate and in line with conventional mores. But really not very many people protested because everyone knew it was deeply, deeply stupid of Vaemond to say that no matter how true it was. This is far away from Joffrey deciding to single-handedly incite war by executing a Lord Paramount out of sadistic glee and need to feel his dick was bigger than it was.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Ah yes, its too child-like to think the enemy would not shot themselves in the foot by killing someone who is basically dead when there was no need to, in the worst possible time to raise up suspect ions.

Yes, very child-like, what a joke

Yes its incredibly child like to think normal humans work like robots or Vulcan's and would parse out that a murder is unlikely because it doesn't fit optimal parameters for a coup to maximize efficacy.

[Syegfryed]

Yes its incredibly child like to think normal humans work like robots or Vulcan's and would parse out that a murder is unlikely because it doesn't fit optimal parameters for a coup to maximize efficacy.

Don't put the ability you don't have -as something so fantastical that only robots or other species could have.

But i see what you did here, trying to change goalposts, nobody said it was unlikely to think it was murder, Its completely fair to think that, at first, but its dumb and child-like is to keep going in that idea, knowing the facts of it.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Now you are just regurgitating what the other dude said, you don't need to be a robot to do rational thinking.

You can assume something first on emotion, but again, once you cool off and have time to THINK, and put the pieces together, you know it make no fucking sense, and if you still believe you do then this is in your own limitation.

Except it does make sense. Viserys had just fucked up their plan by showing up to Court... and then he dies that same night. It's not weird to think he may have been killed to prevent him from fucking up their next plan.

And, as you just said, "cool off and have time to THINK"... Daemon didn't have time to cool off and think... his accusation was in the moment he learned of his brothher's death and that Aegon had ALREADY been crowned. And nothing else he learned afterwards would make him think "Oh, it's all just a weird coincidence". The very fact that they were ready to crown Aegon immediately makes it more suspicious. Hiding the King's death...more suspicious.

Imagine someone in a hospital, family see him fine, then one day later he died, you can assume it was medic negligence, but then, you see facts, and see the patient had a serious thing that just became worse overnight

Again, it's not his death itself that's suspicious...it's the exact timing. He thwarts their plan, he dies that night, the next day the Greens are putting their chosen King on the throne. All of that together is suspicious. Again, Beesbury thinks the exact same thing when he learns that the Greens had ALREADY been planning to supplant Rhaenyra with Aegon.

If there's anyone being "irrational" here...it's you people here blinded by your Bumlicking devotion to the greens.

[Syegfryed]

Except it does make sense. Viserys had just fucked up their plan by showing up to Court... and then he dies that same night. It's not weird to think he may have been killed to prevent him from fucking up their next plan.

No its not, its dumb to think they would do that RIGHT AFTER he does that, when thier enemy Rhaenys was still there, when they could just give him the milk and rule when he sleeps when he was doing this whole time.

In fact, killing him, at that moment, go against their plans way too hard and the blacks can see they were not fully read and still had to get support from other houses

And, as you just said, "cool off and have time to THINK"... Daemon didn't have time to cool off and think... his accusation was in the moment he learned of his brothher's death and that Aegon had ALREADY been crowned. And nothing else he learned afterwards would make him think "Oh, it's all just a weird coincidence".

And im not saying in the moment he was wrong, it was something normal from an anger point of view, but they likely should drop this hypothesis because it make no sense.

If there's anyone being "irrational" here...it's you people here blinded by your Bumlicking devotion to the greens.

To bad for your little fallacy here, im not team anything, i just like Aemond and Daemon, and hope they fuck up in the civil war.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Don't put the ability you don't have -as something so fantastical that only robots or other species could have.

But i see what you did here, trying to change goalposts, nobody said it was unlikely to think it was murder, Its completely fair to think that, at first, but its dumb and child-like is to keep going in that idea, knowing the facts of it.

Not only robot's or other species there are plenty of autistic and other people who function that way as well but the average person doesn't and to think they do means you lack a basic understanding of how humans function and instead have a child like view of logic and rationality.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

No its not, its dumb to think they would do that RIGHT AFTER he does that, when thier enemy Rhaenys was still there, when they could just give him the milk and rule when he sleeps when he was doing this whole time.

Yes, up until that point, they had no reason to kill him. He was bedbound and drugged up on milk of the poppy. Except, what changed that day was that he didn't take the milk of the poppy...and he, in one day, destroyed their plans to take control of Driftmark...which denied them a very powerful ally. And that just happens to also be the day he died. The timing of that is suspicious when you consider everything that happens immediately after.

In fact, killing him, at that moment, go against their plans way too hard and the blacks can see they were not fully read and still had to get support from other houses

If their plans weren't ready aftere years of Otto running the Kingdom...then they're just bad at planning. Also, you're acting like Daemon would know exactly what their plans were.

And im not saying in the moment he was wrong, it was something normal from an anger point of view, but they likely should drop this hypothesis because it make no sense.

Again, it makes perfect sense...when you consider all the other facts. Again, Beesbury had the exact same thought. He was not suspicious of the King's death at all...until the Greens revealed they were already planning on going ahead with thier coup. It is enough to make anyone suspicious. And nothing they did afterwards makes it any less suspicious.


If the Greens didn't move forward with their coup, cover up the Kings death, and arrest anyone that didn't swear loyalty...then it would be childish for Daemon to continue with the assumption that Alicent murdered Viserys.

[Syegfryed]

Yes, up until that point, they had no reason to kill him. He was bedbound and drugged up on milk of the poppy. Except, what changed that day was that he didn't take the milk of the poppy...and he, in one day, destroyed their plans to take control of Driftmark...which denied them a very powerful ally. And that just happens to also be the day he died. The timing of that is suspicious when you consider everything that happens immediately after.

There still no reason to kill him m8, its not like he ruined their whole coup, its not like they can just feed him the milk again, its not like he was goin to do that the entire time

The timing of that is suspicious when you consider everything that happens immediately after.

The timing is what make this completely nonsensical, if it was months later, they it would be completely logical to do that.

If their plans weren't ready aftere years of Otto running the Kingdom...then they're just bad at planning. Also, you're acting like Daemon would know exactly what their plans were.

Or, because a coup is not something easy and smooth, it take time and precautious to no fuck up?

Again, it makes perfect sense...when you consider all the other facts. Again, Beesbury had the exact same thought. He was not suspicious of the King's death at all...until the Greens revealed they were already planning on going ahead with thier coup. It is enough to make anyone suspicious. And nothing they did afterwards makes it any less suspicious.

He did supects of regicide, like i said, for emotions is obvious someone would think that, but see, he jus suspected

If the Greens didn't move forward with their coup, cover up the Kings death, and arrest anyone that didn't swear loyalty...then it would be childish for Daemon to continue with the assumption that Alicent murdered Viserys.

Or, he would just know he died by his illness and the greens seize the opportunity.

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Not only robot's or other species there are plenty of autistic and other people who function that way as well but the average person doesn't and to think they do means you lack a basic understanding of how humans function and instead have a child like view of logic and rationality.

Now you are saying people who don't work like you do are autistic? can't you stop so this don't get worse for yourself?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Now you are saying people who don't work like you do are autistic? can't you stop so this don't get worse for yourself?

That would be a double negative in my case, but yes what you describe is one of the traits of higher function Autism.

I can’t say I know we’re your child like view of logical and rationality comes from though, watching one to many episode of Star Trek or “fact and logic” videos on YouTube Mabye?

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Words

Listen, I'm just not going to go through this with you again. I've explained why it wasn't irrational. Other people have explained why it wasn't irtrational. Do you think you're so much better than everyone else to utterly dismiss the notion that it wasn't irrational?

So yeah, I'm done. Reply to this message if you want... but I will no longer respond on this particular topic. It's already just us repeating the same things back and forth at each other and it just clogs up the page. Take that as a "victory" if you want.

[Varodoc]

What would Daemon getting over it or not change, exactly?

I don't think it's ever explained how the rivalry between Daemon and Otto started, but if they were not rivals, everything would change lol. Otto wouldn't have convinced Viserys to replace Daemon with Rhaenyra as heir. Daemon would have remained heir, until Aegon the Elder's birth, at which point Aegon would be named heir by primogeniture law. And the whole mess would have been avoided.

The Dance of Dragons is a complex civil war, there are many reasons and causes behind it, and the decades-long rivalry between Otto and Daemon is definitely one of them.

The moment Aegon is crowned Rhaenyra is out for blood, and war becomes extremely likely, and he'd have followed her into it regardless due to how tied he is to her.

This is not the message of the episode at all. Rhaenyra and her council were willing to pursue peace and were considering Aegon the Elder's terms of peace. As per Rhaenyra's own admission, King Aegon the Elder would have received her response at King's Landing very soon. As Rhaenyra states, her main concern was preparing the kingdom for the White Walkers, not the throne.

Daemon was the only on who was out for blood and wanted war (before Lucerys died ofc).

He's also not the only one to think that. Beesbury also accuses the Small Council, to his detriment. That they're both wrong does not matter much;

Yeah, and Beesbury was also dumb. The dude said that this guy was "well last night":




I don't know what kind of strong drug Beesbury was smoking to think that Viserys was "well" the night before. Considering how he was 1) missing half his face 2) couldn't walk anymore 3) had to be taken back to his chambers urgently because he was suddenly in pain.

Honsetly, I can't decide who was more senile between Viserys and Beesbury.

They went around killing important people on whims.

And Daemon didn't? Daemon killed Lady Rhea Royce, the Lady of Runestone and Head of House Royce, the second strongest house in the Vale, to pursue an illegal relationship with his niece.

[Jastall]

I don't think it's ever explained how the rivalry between Daemon and Otto started, but if they were not rivals, everything would change lol. Otto wouldn't have convinced Viserys to replace Daemon with Rhaenyra as heir. Daemon would have remained heir, until Aegon the Elder's birth, at which point Aegon would be named heir by primogeniture law. And the whole mess would have been avoided.

The Dance of Dragons is a complex civil war, there are many reasons and causes behind it, and the decades-long rivalry between Otto and Daemon is definitely one of them.


This is not the message of the episode at all. Rhaenyra and her council were willing to pursue peace and were considering Aegon the Elder's terms of peace. As per Rhaenyra's own admission, King Aegon the Elder would have received her response at King's Landing very soon. As Rhaenyra states, her main concern was preparing the kingdom for the White Walkers, not the throne.

Daemon was the only on who was out for blood and wanted war (before Lucerys died ofc).



Yeah, and Beesbury was also dumb. The dude said that this guy was "well last night":




I don't know what kind of strong drug Beesbury was smoking to think that Viserys was "well" the night before. Considering how he was 1) missing half his face 2) couldn't walk anymore 3) had to be taken back to his chambers urgently because he was suddenly in pain.

Honsetly, I can't decide who was more senile between Viserys and Beesbury.



And Daemon didn't? Daemon killed Lady Rhea Royce, the Lady of Runestone and Head of House Royce, the second strongest house in the Vale, to pursue an illegal relationship with his niece.

What? The rivalry (more like intense dislike) between Otto and Daemon didn't change shit. Viserys defended his brother from Otto's accusations and only exiled and replaced him after Daemon insulted Emma and Baelon's memory. Viserys chose Rhaenyra in large part because of Daemon's failings for sure, as he admits, but it's one conclusion to which he came by mostly by himself. Otto certainly was pleased but Daemon also had nothing to do with his subsequent maneuvering to ensure Alicent married Viserys and then have her son be under his wing and placed on the throne. Daemon is an obstacle to Otto, but he certainly isn't part and parcel of his motivations and goals which he explicitly outlines among others in Ep. 3.

You're right in that I mixed up my timelines and war was only inevitable after Lucerys died, but the fact that Rhaenyra considered peace and called the shots still kinda shows Daemon wasn't the one who would decide on war or not, no matter how much he shouts he's not the one with the pants and power in the Blacks, Rhaenyra is.

Call the guy senile if you want, he certainly lays it on thick by saying Viserys is well, but the point is that the situation still doesn't look legit no matter how one twists the pretzels. Loads of people in-universe won't care if they stand to gain from it obviously, and in the end Viserys did die well enough by himself without requiring encouragement, but the whole thing still smells like BS nevertheless.

Daemon didn't execute her. He murdered her, and sure the coverup was about as farcical as Rhaenyra's coverup of her first 3 kids being bastards, but he didn't execute her in plain view of everyone just because. Yes, in the end she's still dead but the appearances are again not the same and it wasn't out of sadism or paranoia like Joffrey, Ramsay, Aerys II or Maegor I did. Daemon isn't much better than those guys, mind, but he's not quite alike. And of course he's not the ruler so his misdeeds have less dramatic consequences.

[TirielWoW]

In the end it doesn't actually matter. With or without actually killing Jace...what he did was foolish. Had Jace gotten away...he'd still report to his mother that he was attacked by Aemond after delivering his message to the Baratheons. Going after Jace in the first place was a foolish act... that it lead to Jace's death just compounds it.

Nothing I said in any way contradicts that. *shrug*

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Gonna answer both cause its basically the same, I'm just giving maybe one of the reasons of why Arax was so rebel, maybe was this or, my first point, and i think it is the truth, just his personality, as animals they are. and can't be fully controlled, regardless of who mount then.

On top of pure-blood, at least to me, the show implies who have more "strong" blood based on their features, Aemond and Aegon by example would be more "pure-blood" than Jacerys and Lucerys, just by the fact of having the dominant genes of the targeryan.

Since both Ranehyra children where from Lord Strong, his gene is dominant, his features are more preeminent, we can make a claim that they are more "strong" than Targeryan.

In contrast, Rhaenyra and Daemon son would be more "pureblood" than all of the four.

Like...this makes no sense. Rhaenys having silver hair is a show-ism. She had black, Baratheon hair. There were plenty of dark-haired Targaryens, and their physical features absolutely played no part in their ability to bond with a dragon or control it.

This was literally a situation of inexperienced riders who lost control in the heat of the moment. It has nothing to do with their "blood purity." Ugh.