Do you think Sylvanas was a good character for "female empowerment"?

[geco]

Sylvanas from W3 and start of WoW. Yes
The garbage they write now. Nope

[SoundOfGuns]

Original Sylvanas? Probably. The absurd iteration we got since BFA that escalated during Shadowlands? Probably not. Im not a women, but i think horribly written garbage characters do not work for anything, no matter the point they try to make. If you want to make her a role model for anything at all she already fails, since she neither takes responsibility for her actions nor does she seem particularly sorry.

She does not seem to actually feel like what she did was wrong, brushes the responsibility off very very easily and does not seem to experience any guilt either. "Just the Jailor, yo." Even after she went through all this stuff (as she claims, and while i know the writers think she did, its so badly written that i still cant buy she ACTUALLY was controlled by anyone but her own Ego) she does not forgive Arthas who was, ya know, ACTUALLY a victim of having his mind twisted before all the crimes he did, nor does she have any sympathy for the tragedy that is his life. No, even after all the crimes she committed she still acts arrogant, even though she should have been thrown into the maw like he was and deserved it more.

She is a horrible person and has little todo with the Ranger General who stood up against the Scourge and cared for her people then and later no matter who they were, because they all shared a similar curse. Who did not forget the Elves even when she wasn't one of them anymore and who felt burdened by Vol'Jins last words when he died in Legion.

This current Sylvanas is just a shitty, power-hungry, opportunistic and arrogant jerk who cares for nothing but herself. I don't think that is empowering to anyone.

[Grazrug]

Original Sylvanas? Probably. The absurd iteration we got since BFA that escalated during Shadowlands? Probably not. Im not a women, but i think horribly written garbage characters do not work for anything, no matter the point they try to make. If you want to make her a role model for anything at all she already fails, since she neither takes responsibility for her actions nor does she seem particularly sorry.

She does not seem to actually feel like what she did was wrong, brushes the responsibility off very very easily and does not seem to experience any guilt either. "Just the Jailor, yo." Even after she went through all this stuff (as she claims, and while i know the writers think she did, its so badly written that i still cant buy she ACTUALLY was controlled by anyone but her own Ego) she does not forgive Arthas who was, ya know, ACTUALLY a victim of having his mind twisted before all the crimes he did, nor does she have any sympathy for the tragedy that is his life. No, even after all the crimes she committed she still acts arrogant, even though she should have been thrown into the maw like he was and deserved it more.

She is a horrible person and has little todo with the Ranger General who stood up against the Scourge and cared for her people then and later no matter who they were, because they all shared a similar curse. Who did not forget the Elves even when she wasn't one of them anymore and who felt burdened by Vol'Jins last words when he died in Legion.

This current Sylvanas is just a shitty, power-hungry, opportunistic and arrogant jerk who cares for nothing but herself. I don't think that is empowering to anyone.

Sylvanas always cared about her people. Even in undeath when she sent forces to help the blood elves take back the ghostlands. Unlike her sisters who thought getting a human husband and support a faction that always throws the elves under the bus for human exceptionism is the way to go.

[SoundOfGuns]

Sylvanas always cared about her people. Even in undeath when she sent forces to help the blood elves take back the ghostlands. Unlike her sisters who thought getting a human husband and support a faction that always throws the elves under the bus for human exceptionism is the way to go.

Yea. Like i said. The original Sylvanas. The one we had even in Legion. Everything after is just not the same character but a very despicable one.

[Grazrug]

Yea. Like i said. The original Sylvanas. The one we had even in Legion. Everything after is just not the same character but a very despicable one.

I am not making anything up. Read the new novel. Her mother picked her over Alleria because the oldest sister couldn't stop hanging out with humans while Sylvanas went to every nobility party with the royal family.

[Hambo94]

I mean yeah she lost her autonomy in the later stories, but I personally fail to see how making a female character like Sylvanas the ranger, hunter, archer of the entire series dosent show that shes empowered, to a large degree. I can see what people are saying about her autonomy too, I see it more along the lines of Blizzard showed that a female character can be incredibly important/lead stories, whether her character happens to be good/bad and the circumstances of that story are a different element.

[Maljinwo]

Sylvanas has been inconsistently written for years and people never really liked her. Only liked 'some' aspects of her character that they used headcanon to fit their views.

Sylvanas fans' enjoyed her undead form because "yas slay queen" but whenever she was called evil they defended her actions as 'she really cares for the Horde guys!'
Or when she left the Horde because she never really cared for it, they instead blamed the Horde as somehow being 'unworthy' of her
Or when she clearly was just Lich King 2.0 and people rushed to her defense because 'well Arthas basically raped her (????) by resurrecting her, so it's okay when she does it!" as if having something bad happen to you justified deplorable acts you commit later
Or that time she helped the Blood Elves retake the Ghostlands only to blackmail them later because apparently blackmailing is how you show people you still love them

And now? Sylvanas is not even the undead banshee people liked because she is now a 'complete' form of her.
Taking into account the Ranger General that no one cared about



No way she is empowering to women when she spent most of her whole characterization serving under someone (Arthas, The Jailer) or failing when trying to do stuff on her own.

[Feanoro]

Sylvanas always cared about her people.

Yes, that's why she threw their lives away for her ego when Arthas marched on the Sunwell. That's why she refers to everyone she ever leads as "arrows in her quiver". That's why she agreed to a plan to murder everyone and use their souls as fuel. She's just so caring.

Even in undeath when she sent forces to help the blood elves take back the ghostlands.

Definitely motivated by the caring that undead canonically were incapable of, and not a small piece of revenge against the Scourge.

Unlike her sisters who thought getting a human husband and support a faction that always throws the elves under the bus for human exceptionism is the way to go.

The same elves who withdrew from the Alliance, then were shocked that they weren't top priority while the Alliance members were fighting for their lives against the Old Horde?

[bloodmoth13]

The problem is her story concluded with Arthas' death. Revenge had been had against the oppressor.

She and the forsaken were fine up until that point, but without him all they've done is proven they're the monsters everyone feared they were.

Yes.
And that's the problem. Same with orcs, war3 built them up as noble savages which was the perfect transition from evil demonic warband but time and again they go back to their roots of genocidal maniacs.

Sylv from war3 would never serve the jailor, her whole arc was so contrived it's ridiculous. Honestly can't really say more, it is what it is ...

[El Gucaragua]

Sylvanas was, and perhaps still is, one of the most popular characters in the franchise, and this is a serious question. I've noticed in the past on the official forums and Reddit, that LOTS of active players, especially younger female players, seem to always defend and admire her, even after the Burning of Teldrassil.

Their reasoning was that she was a deeply traumatized female who was able to overcome and harden herself through her trials and become a strong individual with very great force of will - that she was able to assert her agency as a female character and leader, a hunter and a banshee, an undead elf and an iconic Horde character. She was extremely beautiful and deadly and graceful, and yet she had her nuanced moments, such as her famous Lament of the Highborne scene, a very complex and relatable character to lots of young women and female gamers who admired her in equal parts for her tenacity and ruthlessness.

Even Patty herself stated in the past that she faced significant domestic abuse when she was a young girl, and she channels some of her inner pain and anguish into her voice acting, which is perhaps what makes it so realistically engaging and potent for so many people.

Of course, those against that perspective would be that Sylvanas was a strong female character, but one who started Azeroth's fourth global war and committed what most Alliance and night elf players at least consider genocide. Although - she has been "redeemed" somewhat, and is now relatively "whole" and complete, and feels remorse for her actions - I recommend her novel to those who did not read it, it was not perfect, but much better than many other books today.
https://www.amazon.com/Sylvanas-Worl.../dp/B08ZXZDNVS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxWw-6Ipyuc

HAHAHAHAHAHA No.

[MsSideEye]

Here's the thing that a lot of people miss about 'Female Empowerment' or 'Repersentation of X Minority' or anything else like that is that the stories that go out of their way to do that aren't ever the ones that people remember, or the things that are talked about. It's about the ones who just decided 'Hey, let's make this character a girl or black or gay' and not let it be a big thing otherwise, letting their story be told out with just a different main character.

You want to know one of the moments that stands out the most for me when it came to Sylvanas? It was the moment in the story where she rightfully points out to Garrosh that without Val'kyr, the Forsaken as a race will die out. And through that lens, that statement and her actions in Legion, you can see that THIS is supposed to be her goal. It's not about serving the Jailer, it's not about being some woman who wants to rule all and rewrite the rules of life and death. It's about a single person who sees herself not as an elf or some undead abomination, but as FORSAKEN. She sees her and those like her as people who deserve life, happiness, and the ability to continue their lines just as any other living race on the planet.

The best question comes, one which has no right answer, one whether or not it's right to let the Forsaken procreate as they have, as it requires the dead of others to do so. This is a defining moment for Sylvanas and her character and, in my opinion, the true core of her character. Being a woman has nothing to do with it.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I don't consider Danuser's fanfic to be canon. To me, Sylvanas will always just be that evil despot of the Eastern Kingdoms who dug up graces, resurrected people, and then told them to "serve me or die" before she proceeded to enslave more people and conquer more kingdoms, all the while conducting horiffic Unit 731 experimentation upon captives within the bowels of the Undercity. She was always an mustache twirling evil character, and this post-modernist trend of trying to "humanize" and "redeem" villains is very tiresome. Villains can't just be irredeemably evil anymore.

She had a decent character design back then.

[Romanthony]

she might of been before the BFA storyline. Like legion showed her as a Leader showed her sounding the horn to retreat to protect the family she has grown to respect. the sart of bFA i sitll get chills from the "For the horde" butafter that intro it all went down hill and she became a pawn for the jailer.

[VladlTutushkin]

I don't consider Danuser's fanfic to be canon. To me, Sylvanas will always just be that evil despot of the Eastern Kingdoms who dug up graces, resurrected people, and then told them to "serve me or die" before she proceeded to enslave more people and conquer more kingdoms, all the while conducting horiffic Unit 731 experimentation upon captives within the bowels of the Undercity. She was always an mustache twirling evil character, and this post-modernist trend of trying to "humanize" and "redeem" villains is very tiresome. Villains can't just be irredeemably evil anymore.

She had a decent character design back then.

Thats the problem though. If you have an unapologetic , over the top villain in one faction and no counterpart for her in other faction you have to either “redeem” her or axe her.

Cause villain cannot exist without a victim, and nobody wants to play a victim especially without any kind of revenge or retribution.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I am not making anything up. Read the new novel. Her mother picked her over Alleria because the oldest sister couldn't stop hanging out with humans while Sylvanas went to every nobility party with the royal family.

Ya this didn’t happen there mother resisted sylvanas becoming ranger general at Alleria’s request until Alleria flat out said she’d never do the job and was planning on leaving, there mother never wanted sylvanas to have the roll and didn’t even train her for the roll until she was forced to.

[AcidicSyn]

Can't comment on empowerment, but as a character in general? Started off cool, then got dumb, then cool for a second, then bad again.

I liked WC3 Sylvanas, vengeful, vindictive, pragmatic. I liked a character that, so long as you were aligned with her, wasn't so obviously evil, but was vicious, dark, and merciless. "Evil to the Alliance, but not the Forsaken" was how I classified her, and I liked her in that role.

I especially liked her absolute hard line stance on never, ever using domination or enslavement. But then cata happened and that business in Andorhal, while neat, went against the character I was sold before, with seemingly no explanation, and later none I found satisfactory.

Then Legion and the beginning of BFA happened, and I was willing to overlook those flaws because I absolutely loved the "For the Horde Sylvanas" we got in that intro cinematic for BFA. I never cared about what she did to the Alliance, her enemies, she could be categorically evil as far as they were concerned and that never bothered me, she'd always been evil to them, par for the course, no big deal as far as characterization goes.

Now? ugh is where I'm at.

I can enjoy evil characters, as I've already said; but she's so inconsistent, it sucks. There were so many chances to make her very interesting. We were all afraid of them "Kerriganing" her. I'm not so sure that would have been much worse than we got. By the time Shadowlands came I just wanted to put her out of her misery.

[NoiseTank13]

Helya was a far better figure for 'female empowerment'.

Was given a shit offer, refused, was forced on and spent every minute after fighting back.

Shame they portrayed her as a villain.

[Shaltharian]

I'm not sure if sex nor gender have any particular importance to the quality of a character. That is to say, I don't much care for "female empowement" or "male empowerment" make or female agency, and so on. Rather, I care more about just character agency. Character empowerment. If the character is written well, I will show appreciation and enjoyment for the character.
That isn't to say "I don't think the genders are written unequally." They are, they absolutely are. But making a female character powerful just for being a female character, does not actually empower them.

I enjoyed Sylvanas' character from a distance, back in WCIII, and through Wrath. I was very curious where she would go with the whole "holy shit. I don't wanna die. I don't wanna die. I gotta use the Forsaken as my bulwark so I don't ever die again." Motovation in Cata+. She dumped off Icecrown after Wrath ended. And she did not like what was waiting for her on the other side.

This curiosity of mine continued up until BFA. Whereupon I just started rolling my eyes over and over every time it felt like Sylvanas was handed a "I win. c:" card. Consequences for her various actions either coming too late, or not at all. I became very disinterested woth how her advancements felt like they happened "because."

[Nerovar]

She used to be a sort of empowered figure back when she embodied the platonic ideal of the toxic girlboss building her empire. Then the BfA characterization transformed her from ruthless to psychopathic only for Shadowlands to revert that characterization by taking away her agency and making her the mere stooge of a man with exposed nipples.

[mickybrighteyes]

Helya was a far better figure for 'female empowerment'.

Was given a shit offer, refused, was forced on and spent every minute after fighting back.

Shame they portrayed her as a villain.

There seems to be a gross lack of details for that pantheon set. She turned into a loot pinata because we were slated to side with Odyn for... reasons...