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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    I think you are misunderstanding Galadriel's mirror and her passing of the test.


    Galadriel is directly referencing the temptation of the ring, and subsequently talks about how her intentions might start as pure, they'd quickly lead elsewhere:


    It then goes to describe how her visage changes:


    And finally when talking to Sam who says that he wishes she'd take it as she'd 'put things to rights', she simply says:


    Galadriel, like Gandalf, is fully aware of how corrupting the Ring would be and rejects it absolutely because of that fact.

    You're severely underestimating Sauron, even if you only consider his Ring-less form in the Lord of the Rings timeline he's still a force of malice and pure will that is simply beyond that of The Lich King.
    And all it would took was one touch.

  2. #102
    Sauron can call down meteors, passively curse people from very far away, switch between corporeal and incorporeal form, has faster teleportation traveling and some low level reality warping, his basic attacks cause explosive shockwaves and he has many other stuff if we count all the lore asides from the movies, he does not really depend on minions to defeat Arthas.

    I dont think that the Lich King can even handle the Balrog who is weaker than Sauron, and it does not matter if they fought at the top of Icecrown Citadel since ice does not affect them in a bad way anyway. THe Witch King would have been a better opponent.

    Last edited by Elfezen; 2022-11-18 at 06:43 AM.

  3. #103
    Sauron didn't have a corporeal form after a mere human cut his finger off.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    The Lich King is small beans in warcraft because the magic and combat in Warcraft's setting is on an entirely different level. I think you are vastly overselling Sauron, Gandalf and the Witch King here. Even as Gandalf (the White) his powers are really basic magic like being able to do room-sized blasts of force, rays of scorching light, or darkness spells and then being a well trained and proficient melee combatant. They are overpowering abilities to the regular human fighters, or a Tolkien orc (which is basically just a more resilient and stronger normal real life human), they are sort of nothing in the context of Warcraft--a regular Kirin Tor mage can do all of those things, and also summon blizzards, throw fire, teleport people across continents, freeze people solid, throw shards of ice, etc. etc.

    The same is true of Sauron. He beat but was severely weakened by fighting Elendil and Gil-galad, two people who, even with the rings taken into account, are probably weaker than more notable warcraft named NPC fighters like Nazgrim, or Taylor, let alone people like pre-corruption Garrosh, Saurfang or Varian. Sauron basically barely scraped through regular combat against two people.

    I don't really see how he'd win against someone who can casually create ice storms, send out waves of disease and plague that can kill people in a matter of seconds, throw out blasts and bolts of shadow energy or summon pools of deadly shadow magic, call forth dozens of attacking spritis with the flick of a wrist, etc. Who is, on top of that, probably also significantly stronger and more resilient to damage.

    Honestly Sauron would probably struggle against most high end NPCs, like Tyrande, non-Jailer Syvlanas or Thrall. We won't even talk about higher-tier characters like Jaina, who would probably absolutely shred him.

    The base power scaling of the two universes are just too different on a fundamental level. Sargeras is not "in line" with Morgoth, Morgoth was, per the wiki, able to summon massive storms of fire, create huge craters, and destroy mountain ranges or fuck up oceans. Sargeras cut an entire planet in half with a sword swing.
    yeah this is probably right, I keep thinking of each of them within their own universes and the magic rules of those universes. I suppose then it would matter ho0w they face off against eachother. IE: with all of the power of their respective universes? Or if one faction "invades" the other and is subject to the rules of that universe in doing so.

    That's what I was thinking when I put Morgoth and Sargeras next to eachother anyway. Like, I imagine if Sargeras exists in middle earth and is subject to the rules of that universe that he would be on the level of Morgoth and vice versa. I sort of started applying some level of automatic scaling to account for the vast difference in magic/rules systems of the two universes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    You are kinda joe Roganing this topic. Hardly have any actual knowledge other than what people have told you, and jumping into a discussion with people who have direct experience with it. Don't be Joe Rogan.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfezen View Post
    Sauron can call down meteors, passively curse people from very far away, switch between corporeal and incorporeal form, has faster teleportation traveling and some low level reality warping, his basic attacks cause explosive shockwaves and he has many other stuff if we count all the lore asides from the movies, he does not really depend on minions to defeat Arthas.

    I dont think that the Lich King can even handle the Balrog who is weaker than Sauron, and it does not matter if they fought at the top of Icecrown Citadel since ice does not affect them in a bad way anyway.
    What's the source for him calling down meteors?

    At any rate, the fact remains that Sauron was beaten several times by mortals in the lore, including times when he had his ring available to him. His latest defeat was at the hands of mere two champions. Lich King has been far more robust and resilient than that in direct combat.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by lazypeon100 View Post
    The problem though is that Arthas has shown he is very susceptible to outside influence. From more straight forward manipulation (Malganis goading him to chase him to Northrend) to the influence of Frostmourne (before he even picked it up). His own ego helped ensure his own downfall as he wanted to corrupt the world's champion's as well. At every turn where he could have resisted corruption, he delved right into further corruption instead.

    Even if Sauron isn't at his full might due to the location, I really doubt Arthas is going to resist the chance for more power, honestly.
    How is any of this relevant? The Lich King and his minions are shown resisting the control of the Old Gods, even going so far as to use Saronite for their armor with no consequences, and actively imprisoning faceless ones they find in Icecrown. Moreover, one of the things we learn in Shadowlands is that Arthas was able to actively fight off the influence of Zovaal - a being who was above even the other members of the Pantheon of Death - while being powered by implements he had created. Clearly the notion of the Lich King being "susceptible to outside influence" is BS.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerule View Post
    It feels like people are underestimating the Lich King because they don't really understand his fight.

    25 of Azeroth's most powerful heroes didn't defeat the Lich King. He was testing us, and when he was done, he unleashed his true power and snuffed out our life.

    It took Tirion resurrecting us, and shattering his primary source of power and rendering him helpless in the flow of souls, for us to win that fight.
    Let's not undersell this, Tirion was able to stop the Lich King because of the Ashbringer. This is a weapon which is in a similar category to those like the Dreadwind Harvester - a weapon with drained an area of land the size of a small kingdom of life - and the Fist of Ra-den - a weapon that Lei Shen, a guy who blanket kingdoms in storms, could not wield. It's so blatantly clear that we're comparing a low fantasy and high fantasy setting that it's a bad comparison, even moreso when you consider the feats of either combatant.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    Again, I think it'd be pretty close but I still reckon Sargeras just about nabs it. While Tulkas is obviously a very good fighter it isn't clear that he has the capability to strategise and manipulate in the way that either Morgoth or Sargeras could. I think it would certainly be a closer fight than Morgoth vs Sargeras though and could easily go either way.

    I think the only Ea character that would 100% defeat Sargeras is Eru. Morgoth, Tulkas, and Manwe would each probably be able to compete somewhat with Sargeras with Manwe being the 'weakest' so to speak, but their fights would most likely sway a little more to his side than to any of theirs. You can probably throw Ulmo in there having a chance too with the whole Water vs Fire thing.
    I've written this earlier, but Sargeras is a dumb character that feels like he was made by a 4 year old - "I'm gonna make a guy that's the size of a whole planet, and he just floats around in space holding a big sword cutting planets in half!"

    Just cause a character is more powerful doesn't mean he's a good character.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfezen View Post
    Sauron can call down meteors, passively curse people from very far away, switch between corporeal and incorporeal form, has faster teleportation traveling and some low level reality warping, his basic attacks cause explosive shockwaves and he has many other stuff if we count all the lore asides from the movies, he does not really depend on minions to defeat Arthas.

    I dont think that the Lich King can even handle the Balrog who is weaker than Sauron, and it does not matter if they fought at the top of Icecrown Citadel since ice does not affect them in a bad way anyway.
    And yet one elfi boi and one human boi beat him, on melee combat, lmao

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirtyrock View Post
    If you're trying to get into actual lore, I don't see how Arthas could hold a candle against Sauron. Arthas is more like one of the Ring Wraiths in lore, whereas Sauron is a literal fallen angel. A better comparison would be Sauron vs the Jailer.
    Sauron got beat by a dog. Then one time by a man and elf. He has trouble with mortals and slightly magical beings a Demigod like the Lich King would crush him.

    The magic scaling of Lord of the Rings is far weaker than Warcraft. The Lich King could create continent sized blizzards, Frostmourne was designed to defeat death titans. Even the feat of shattering Frostmourne is beyond Sauron as the Light itself intervened to break the sword it wasn't Tiron or even Ashbringer but an act of divine intervention.

    Also they scale Sauron terribly here because they take from the non canon Shadow of Mordor game nothing in that is canon and nothing should be used. Tolkin did not make him into a super strong evil bad guy he is more of a force of evil corrupting and manipulating until all serve him. When ever faced with a stronger opponent he tends to flee and this nonsense of just making bodies constantly is foolish. If his physical form is destroyed he is basically helpless for a long long time the two times it happens he takes thousands of years off to recover.

  10. #110
    Sauron calls down meteors...when did that happen? Because I'm reasonably certain that should have happened before Isildur gave Sauron a manicure.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Sauron calls down meteors...when did that happen? Because I'm reasonably certain that should have happened before Isildur gave Sauron a manicure.
    Its in Shadows of Mordor its not canon.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    You're severely underestimating Sauron, even if you only consider his Ring-less form in the Lord of the Rings timeline he's still a force of malice and pure will that is simply beyond that of The Lich King.
    His disembodied form is a near impotent force that relies fully on the subservience of others to maintain his influence. It took him thousands of years to even create an environment where summoning a semi-corporeal form as the Necromancer of Dol Guldur was feasible and was able to try to search for the Ring again through the Nazgul. Clearly this ideation of Sauron's disembodied form being some super powerful, undefeatable being is nonsense. His incorporeal form is impotent and always has been, even being described as such in the books once his ability to regain a corporeal body is lost. That is, the eventual destruction of the ring did not diminish the power of his incorporeal form, but made it so that he could never regain the strength (i.e.: wield the power he had put into it) to become corporeal again and made the power he did expend wasted effort. This is because of one of the incontrovertible truths of power in Middle Earth: once you use power, it's gone. Every action Sauron takes in his incorporeal form irreversibly diminishes him, and he would simply get weaker and weaker until he was in the same state he was in at the end of the LotR series: a disembodied soul, unable to act but bound forever to Middle Earth until the end of time.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    I've written this earlier, but Sargeras is a dumb character that feels like he was made by a 4 year old - "I'm gonna make a guy that's the size of a whole planet, and he just floats around in space holding a big sword cutting planets in half!"

    Just cause a character is more powerful doesn't mean he's a good character.
    And I never suggested this. He's more powerful than the Valar, that's all. It says nothing about his story, his character, or his alignment in any universe. I don't know what the issue is.

    Superman is a more powerful character than Batman, it doesn't mean that his origin story isn't stupid as fuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    Sauron got beat by a dog
    *A dog that was rendered magic and poison immune by the Valar themselves and made immortal by prophecy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    unable to act but bound forever to Middle Earth until the end of time.
    Correction: Bound to the void.

    Regardless, Sauron's folly was the cause of his defeat against the last alliance and putting so much of his power into the ring is WHY it took him so long to regain any of his strength. You are misunderstanding the universe and what is meant by corporeal form, and particularly 'spirits', they are not the same as 'just a ghost' that we'd say for other universes.

    Sauron is Maia, a spirit of pure power that was corrupted by Melkor. When he travelled to Middle Earth he took physical form and eventually encapsulates much of his power into the Ring as a way to control others (via the rings of power.) The Ring works by connecting Sauron's power directly to things he has made which turns them into beacons so to speak where his power of control and corruption can work itself more easily.

    Putting so much of his power into the Ring weakened him so that he could not take physical form BUT, he still has his innate corporeality which is power in and of itself.

    What we'd call a soul DOES exist in the universe, but they are explicitly separate spirits called fea which are connected to a physical body called a hroa. Sauron's situation is just himself taking forms however he wishes (which is also likely the reason he could transform at will.)
    Last edited by Lollis; 2022-11-17 at 10:15 AM.
    Speciation Is Gradual

  14. #114
    sauron is always winning man

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    Correction: Bound to the void.

    Regardless, Sauron's folly was the cause of his defeat against the last alliance and putting so much of his power into the ring is WHY it took him so long to regain any of his strength. You are misunderstanding the universe and what is meant by corporeal form, and particularly 'spirits', they are not the same as 'just a ghost' that we'd say for other universes.

    Sauron is Maia, a spirit of pure power that was corrupted by Melkor. When he travelled to Middle Earth he took physical form and eventually encapsulates much of his power into the Ring as a way to control others (via the rings of power.) The Ring works by connecting Sauron's power directly to things he has made which turns them into beacons so to speak where his power of control and corruption can work itself more easily.

    Putting so much of his power into the Ring weakened him so that he could not take physical form BUT, he still has his innate corporeality which is power in and of itself.

    What we'd call a soul DOES exist in the universe, but they are explicitly separate spirits called fea which are connected to a physical body called a hroa. Sauron's situation is just himself taking forms however he wishes (which is also likely the reason he could transform at will.)
    Sure, lets accept all of this. What does this change regarding the situation Sauron is in? Once he is separated from the ring, he's still not much more than a malicious presence who is described as impotent within the books once his prospects for regaining his power are dashed. This is still someone who is, at best, a slowly fading nuisance who will continue to irreversibly weaken the more power they expend, and is at worst just a presence - something you know is there but is unable to actually do anything.

    The point is that once Sauron is brought to this state, the fight is over. There is no meaningful recovery case to be made here for Sauron, especially given that regardless of whether the ring could be destroyed, Sauron will take thousands of years to recover to the extent that we see in the LotR series. This means he would take thousands of years to simply become a presence in the world again, whereas the Lich King would have thousands of years to expand his power. There is no realistic case in which Sauron turns things around if he is initially beaten.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  16. #116
    Fights like these,

    the author usually weaves a tale around their power, their birth, their growth, their peak, and their downfall.

    The unbeatable Lich King, beaten by a fluke during a moment of weakness.

    The unbeatable Sauron, beaten by a gamble during a moment of weakness.

    But, since the Lich King was designed newer, I'ma assume he'd win. Unless Tolkien wouldn't of died, and lived to this very day, and chisseled out Sauron's details even better but didn't.

    Will the Lich King chop off pieces of Sauron's soul and dominate it piece by piece?

    Will Sauron's temptation of the ring overpower the temptation of the Crown?

    All at the whim of the author's story direction.

    My take*

  17. #117
    Sauron's greatest trait was always his extraordinary manipulation capabilities.

    This is the entity who went from prisoner to chief priest and advisor of the greatest kingdom of men, turning it against their own Gods and convincing them to invade the Heavens.

    Sauron is definitely far more cunning, deceptive, and manipulative than a simple human like Arthas. Regardless, his main shtick is manipulation, not fighting.

    I can see Arthas win a direct brawl, but give Sauron some prep time to lay the seeds of influence in Arthas' mind, and he can 100% corrupt him. Arthas is a spoilt arrogant brat, like the King of Numenor, who Sauron also corrupted after some time.

    He is literally called "The Deceiver". I don't remember Arthas ever being called "Deceiver", which was a title used for Kil'jaeden in-universe. I don't see how Arthas resists manipulation if you give Sauron some time (months, years...) to orchestrate Arthas' fall into servitude.

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