Federalist Admits Fascism; "Stop Calling Us Conservatives"

[Endus]

No twisting into knots required to answer the questions that really do need answers, such as "Who gets to decide?"

Decide what, exactly?

Sex education curricula? That's school boards, and often Departments of Education whether State-level or federal.

Denying kids proper education can be a form of intentional neglect and abuse.

This is such a simple question to answer, when the answer is "the same people who make the other decisions about educational curricula".

If you, as a parent, have an issue with your kid learning that gay and trans people exist, you're just a bigot and you don't have a valid position. The same class of parents who whipped rocks at Ruby Bridges' head. They didn't have an argument, either, they were just hateful bigots who didn't have a problem assaulting a child.

The deeper fundamentals are banned topics, so we can't explore the (likely) several ways that your hatred towards and projection onto conservative ideology relies on labeling and dismissing real topics of debate in gender identity, sexual preference, and LGBTQ issues. But nice all-caps closer for what it's worth.

This is essentially just an admission that your point of view is fundamentally hateful bullshit, and you know it. On most of these topics, there really aren't any legitimate "debates". They're bigots screaming that representation and support for people of differing identities exist, and everyone else telling them to stuff their hate, because hate is never a basis for debate.

I really don't care why you would want to exclude LGBT materials from classrooms. That you would want to is bigotry, based on nothing but hate and fear. There isn't another source for such views.

But, in the interest of fairness, I'm willing to entertain it. Make your case. As long as you're ready for me to break it down once you do. I'll take a refusal to do so as an admission that you know what you're doing.

[Dontrike]

No twisting into knots required to answer the questions that really do need answers, such as "Who gets to decide?"

How about folks with knowledge on how to better children's minds, rather than people who think 5G turns you gay and believe drinking a gallon of sheeple dewormer kills a virus. More sealioning from the resident "Not all Republicans are like that."

The deeper fundamentals are banned topics, so we can't explore the (likely) several ways that your hatred towards and projection onto conservative ideology relies on labeling and dismissing real topics of debate in gender identity, sexual preference, and LGBTQ issues. But nice all-caps closer for what it's worth.

Your assertion to the contrary is noted.

"If I got to talk about what my party was actually like I'd get banned," isn't the argument you think it is. That just means the values you worship is monstrous at best and the bad guys kids learn about 50 years later in history class, at worst

You've yet to explain what the "proper conservative" policies and stances are, just that somehow they're both not part of the "not mainstream" mainstream republicans and also the actual mainstream. Explain it, or shut it.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Farther right and more authoritarian? To a bunch of people sickened by the bailouts and stimulus? You're just dumping all your cultural grievance on the nearest target you can find.

But yeah, good luck connecting militias and militia violence to the mainstream conservative movement. You make no attempt here.

Government takeovers. Attempting to install Trump through violence even though he lost the election. Trying to force the US into a theocracy where religious based laws are forced on others.

"Ah but they hate bailouts" NO THEY DON'T ROFLMAO HAHAHAHAHAHA

They cry about the bailouts then stretch their hands out for handouts. They're all too willing to lie and shill to further their cause.

Seems your idea of authoritarianism is warped too. Government handouts are not authoritarian. I realize you think wealth redistribution is some kind of authoritarian dystopia, but you've demonstrated your idea of civics are warped vastly from reality.

- - - Updated - - -

"If I got to talk about what my party was actually like I'd get banned," isn't the argument you think it is. That just means the values you worship is monstrous at best and the bad guys kids learn about 50 years later in history class, at worst

You've yet to explain what the "proper conservative" policies and stances are, just that somehow they're both not part of the "not mainstream" mainstream republicans and also the actual mainstream. Explain it, or shut it.

Also this. The mere fact that tehdang believes that the "true beliefs" of the Republican party are bannable (mostly citing religion) is all the proof we need that tehdang knows just how bad Republican policies are. Either they're morally abhorrent, or they're entirely based in religion. The right's religious theocracy is authoritarian in nature.

[tehdang]

Government takeovers. Attempting to install Trump through violence even though he lost the election. Trying to force the US into a theocracy where religious based laws are forced on others.

Uhh none of that was Tea Party, and theocracy is like dumb far-left twitter nonsense.

"Ah but they hate bailouts" NO THEY DON'T ROFLMAO HAHAHAHAHAHA

They cry about the bailouts then stretch their hands out for handouts. They're all too willing to lie and shill to further their cause.

Seems your idea of authoritarianism is warped too. Government handouts are not authoritarian. I realize you think wealth redistribution is some kind of authoritarian dystopia, but you've demonstrated your idea of civics are warped vastly from reality.

You were the one that called the Tea Party authoritarian. As expected, it was an empty charge.

The Tea Party failed to effectively mobilize to gain their policy desires. The most was some minor sequesters, and the obvious retaking of the House to stop stimulus and bailouts. I wish there was more diversity of thought on the right in these parts to share additional perspectives on it. That one's mine.

Also this. The mere fact that tehdang believes that the "true beliefs" of the Republican party are bannable (mostly citing religion) is all the proof we need that tehdang knows just how bad Republican policies are. Either they're morally abhorrent, or they're entirely based in religion. The right's religious theocracy is authoritarian in nature.

I can read the rules and discussions around gender identity and sexual preference are banned. So basically all the progressives can shout what they think constitutes hate, and no real deeper analysis can occur to dissect the "argument." It does bear mentioning, because people here tend to ignore the grounds on which these discussions take place. Since people have already heard it, and trolls have had their chance to mock and ridicule, I don't think I'll have to repeat it much more.

[Dontrike]

I can read the rules and discussions around gender identity and sexual preference are banned. So basically all the progressives can shout what they think constitutes hate, and no real deeper analysis can occur to dissect the "argument." It does bear mentioning, because people here tend to ignore the grounds on which these discussions take place. Since people have already heard it, and trolls have had their chance to mock and ridicule, I don't think I'll have to repeat it much more.

Once again we have "I'd tell you, but I'd get banned," just means your values and morals are in the shitter and that if you think yourself one of them then you're like a bad person for following such things.

If you think others are lying about what policies "actual" conservatives have then say it. You keep skirting around it and the only thing you're repeating is lame ass excuses how you don't have to actually define what the "proper" Republican views are.

It is adorable that you think others are "trolling" you because you say absolutely asinine bullshit and then people show how insane you and your viewpoint is.

[unfilteredJW]

I can read the rules and discussions around gender identity and sexual preference are banned. So basically all the progressives can shout what they think constitutes hate, and no real deeper analysis can occur to dissect the "argument." It does bear mentioning, because people here tend to ignore the grounds on which these discussions take place. Since people have already heard it, and trolls have had their chance to mock and ridicule, I don't think I'll have to repeat it much more.

"I'm upset that my thoughts and feelings are so fucking horrible that I can't discuss them and that's you guys fault." sure is a hell of a take.

[Milchshake]

Really tempted to start a thread, "Why is Conservatism so Uncool?"

But honestly, they already provided answers in their endless circle-jerks in every-other thread here.

[Edge-]

Uhh none of that was Tea Party, and theocracy is like dumb far-left twitter nonsense.

Didn't we literally just have this discussion earlier this thread on this?

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53948767
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53949457

Because again, yes, you may try to dismiss everything that's inconvenient to your fantasy of some "silent majority" of reasonable conservative Republicans who actually are going to be running things soon or something, but that's simply not what reality bears out.

Yes. Republicans do want a theocracy. And elected Republican politicians, including those who have somehow managed to gain some apparently notable influence within the party in a short two years, have repeated this kind of pro-theocracy rhetoric.

Unless you've got polling showing that the polls I linked above are all totally bogus or something the conclusion is that yes, even if that makes you uncomfortable, the majority of the Republican party is pro-theocracy.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Uhh none of that was Tea Party,

Every faction on the right, classic conservatives, TEA party, and the neo nazi GQP are all religious zealots.

and theocracy is like dumb far-left twitter nonsense.

The justification for anti abortion everywhere outside of these forums is all religious BS. And before discussion of religion was banned, it was a massive amount of the anti abortion stuff here. Religion is the justification for conservatives on a lot of issues. The mere fact that you don't think so shows just how little you know about the conservative movement. You're either lying about what the movement expresses as a whole, or you're ignorant.

The GOP is the most authoritarian party in a long time. One only needs to look... anywhere on the internet to see that they want to control what people do through government laws. As I said, the mere fact that you think welfare and bailouts are authoritarian shows us just how much you failed civics class.

And again, if your argument is banned on these forums, it's based on hate and/or misinformation and/or religious grounds. That tells us all we need to know there as well.

[tehdang]

Didn't we literally just have this discussion earlier this thread on this?

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53948767
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53949457

"they hold differing opinions about what that phrase means" and "the Constitution was written by humans and reflects their vision, not necessarily God’s vision" just to give you some ideas. You have a conclusion you wish to reach, so you're busy shoveling any nuance out the window as fast as you can. You're giving an example to the underpants gnomes starting with Phase 1: show nuanced and conflicted views of religion in public life Phase 2: ??? Phase 3: This group wants a theocracy.

You intend to make theocracy as lesser than trying to make the entire governmental structure subservient to a god through a religious leader. A constitution that puts a pastor's veto above Congress, the President, and the Supreme Court. Such a thing will never happen. Secondarily, theocracy isn't a mushy concept like "I dislike the social views of many Americans, so they're trying to force their God on me" kind of bs. This is a democracy or representative democracy. If you don't like something, vote on it. Don't claim your losses or failure to make atheism an enlightened default means that an American Ayatollah lives in his own wing of the White House.

This was as blatant a misreading of the articles this time around as it was the first time.

Every faction on the right, classic conservatives, TEA party, and the neo nazi GQP are all religious zealots.

Somebody really, really thinks only the nonreligious are allowed to have opinions on politics.

I myself am quite surprised that the campaign of "Shut up or we'll call you zealots and theocrats" isn't finding broad purchase.

The justification for anti abortion everywhere outside of these forums is all religious BS. And before discussion of religion was banned, it was a massive amount of the anti abortion stuff here. Religion is the justification for conservatives on a lot of issues. The mere fact that you don't think so shows just how little you know about the conservative movement. You're either lying about what the movement expresses as a whole, or you're ignorant.

The GOP is the most authoritarian party in a long time. One only needs to look... anywhere on the internet to see that they want to control what people do through government laws. As I said, the mere fact that you think welfare and bailouts are authoritarian shows us just how much you failed civics class.

And again, if your argument is banned on these forums, it's based on hate and/or misinformation and/or religious grounds. That tells us all we need to know there as well.

Just erasing secular opposition to abortion because you feel like it. And blathering on about "most authoritarian party" like you didn't just confuse and conflate "The Tea Party was not authoritarian" and "The Tea Party opposed stimulus and bailouts." Come off it. You're just throwing petty insults at the wall hoping something sticks.

[Endus]

Uhh none of that was Tea Party, and theocracy is like dumb far-left twitter nonsense.

Literally every time a Republican calls the USA a "Christian Nation", they're making an argument for theocracy. Every time they cite their religious views to attack abortion rights (and that's every attack on abortion rights), every time they attack the LGBT and particularly marriage equality, every time they want to allow prayer to be led in schools, etc. Those are all pushes for theocracy. Claiming that recognizing that is "dumb far-left twitter nonsense" is just straight-up gaslighting.

I can read the rules and discussions around gender identity and sexual preference are banned. So basically all the progressives can shout what they think constitutes hate, and no real deeper analysis can occur to dissect the "argument." It does bear mentioning, because people here tend to ignore the grounds on which these discussions take place. Since people have already heard it, and trolls have had their chance to mock and ridicule, I don't think I'll have to repeat it much more.

If you can't post it, it's because you don't have a legitimate argument, and you know it. You're hiding behind a misinterpretation of site rules. Same way me breaking down the above regarding "theocracy" isn't a violation of the rule against religious discussion.

- - - Updated - - -

You intend to make theocracy as lesser than trying to make the entire governmental structure subservient to a god through a religious leader. A constitution that puts a pastor's veto above Congress, the President, and the Supreme Court. Such a thing will never happen.

No, a "theocracy" is a country ruled by a faith group, which implements its teachings as law. It does not require that the actual leadership be faith leaders exclusively, just that the laws be written to enshrine that faith's principles above all others.

Somebody really, really thinks only the nonreligious are allowed to have opinions on politics.

No, just a recognition that no religious principle can be construed to apply to non-believers in said religion. If your religion says you shouldn't eat potatoes, you should not eat potatoes; if you try and prevent anyone else from eating potatoes, you're attacking their religious freedoms and trying to force your religion to be law. That's a theocratic mindset. It doesn't matter how "serious" your religious view is to you or how "bad" you think the violation is. If it's religious, it guides your choices, and that's where its application stops.

Just erasing secular opposition to abortion because you feel like it. And blathering on about "most authoritarian party" like you didn't just confuse and conflate "The Tea Party was not authoritarian" and "The Tea Party opposed stimulus and bailouts." Come off it. You're just throwing petty insults at the wall hoping something sticks.

There is no "secular opposition to abortion". All pro-life positions fundamentally invent non-secular reasoning as base principles at some level. Any belief that a 6-week old fetus is a "child" or a "baby", for instance; no secular justification for that whatsoever, it's rooted in the same non-secular arguments as belief in a "soul" and the like. I've seen plenty of people claim to be secular when making these arguments, but those arguments never actually hold up to scrutiny; there's always some level of faith-based reasoning (albeit often non-denominational) to be found. Literally never seen a single counter-example.

[Dontrike]

You intend to make theocracy as lesser than trying to make the entire governmental structure subservient to a god through a religious leader. A constitution that puts a pastor's veto above Congress, the President, and the Supreme Court. Such a thing will never happen.

You're kidding, right? That shit happens all the damn time, a politician's religion takes precedence over people's freedoms. Just take a look at the anti abortion, gay, and trans as just the first few examples of a long list of shit. Literally Republicans talk about America being a "Christian nation," damn near every 10 minutes.

The idea that it never happens is fucking asinine.

Somebody really, really thinks only the nonreligious are allowed to have opinions on politics.

When a religious person's political views are "Believe in my book or you'll suffer for eternity and/or I'll try and kill you" it's no fucking wonder why people want that shit out.

Just erasing secular opposition to abortion because you feel like it. And blathering on about "most authoritarian party" like you didn't just confuse and conflate "The Tea Party was not authoritarian" and "The Tea Party opposed stimulus and bailouts." Come off it. You're just throwing petty insults at the wall hoping something sticks.

Once again you put some words out and didn't say a damn thing. Still waiting for you to explain what a "proper mainstream conservative" is.

[tehdang]

Why stop there? I get the feeling that Baby Tehdang's first words were "stop the librul 'genda"

Pretty obvious projecting. Multiple people in this forum are engaged in obvious fascist, theocrat, bigot smears … and they wish that the people who noticed were themselves doing the same thing from the other direction.

Nope. You’re just lowering your standards of evidence to match what you feel is true in your heart. Just like the equivalent rabble-rousing culture warriors were doing in the 90s with Clinton and 00s with Obama to label them with every negative term in the book.

The best idea would be to drop the dumb labeling games. But I don’t see that happening any time soon. It has to play itself out. But to take your phrase, was Baby Midnight Bomber’s first words “Mommy, there’s conservative fascists under my bed again, make them stop?”

[Endus]

Pretty obvious projecting. Multiple people in this forum are engaged in obvious fascist, theocrat, bigot smears … and they wish that the people who noticed were themselves doing the same thing from the other direction.

1> If they're accurate, they're not "smears".
2> I've been called so many smears in my time here. "Commie", "pinko", "Stalin-lover", among plenty of others. None of which held any merit or justification.

Nope. You’re just lowering your standards of evidence to match what you feel is true in your heart. Just like the equivalent rabble-rousing culture warriors were doing in the 90s with Clinton and 00s with Obama to label them with every negative term in the book.

The best idea would be to drop the dumb labeling games. But I don’t see that happening any time soon. It has to play itself out. But to take your phrase, was Baby Midnight Bomber’s first words “Mommy, there’s conservative fascists under my bed again, make them stop?”

I get that accurately identifying moral failings is a problem for the amoral, but that doesn't make the labels inaccurate or meaningless.

[tehdang]

The reason I said that is that American terminology tends to not align with what everyone else on the planet thinks words mean. Conservatism in the US may mean one thing, but I can assure you that the "conservative" parties in Europe don't necessarily automate to "fascim" if left unchecked. Which is what the hypothesis was about, if I understood you guys correctly.

Now, if your argument is that "conservatism is a fertile breeding ground for fascism", sure why not? But you can see how that applies to basically anything. Like the hyper liberal German constitution of the Weimar Republic or the Italian fascism, which is actually opposed to classical conservatism, if I'm not mistaken.

You’re right in the sense that conservatism means different things in different cultural contexts. You should also go further to understand that fascism to American progressives and many Europeans means opposition to any number of progressive policies, and use of power for anything but to advance progressive politics. The second place you could go is respecting that American conservatism and Italian fascism are not alike at all.

I think what you say may be true, but as I said, it's probably only true for the US. They have rather special views on most things, including language. I'd even be brave enough to say they don't have a fucking clue what conservatism is and use the word because it sounds nice, or was traditionally used, if you buy me a beer and sweet talk me into it. The GoP has left conservatism a long time ago. Whatever the fuck their frankenstein of a political orientation is, it's not something we'd ordinarily attribute the literal words "conservatism" to.

Just as an example: Libertarianism/Liberalism, terms which have been distorted beyond recognition in the US. Same with socialist market economies. There are legit humans running around in the US thinking half the European countries are socialist/communist states because we have fucking healthcare (that we pay for, by the way). I've just seen frickin' Obama talk to Trevor Noah on that and the cringe when they unironically mentioned Sweden being basically socialist. On national television!

Edit: Another peculiarity is that in the US, there's only two labels. Maybe it's easier for me to make my argument because we have conservatism, socialism and liberalism/greens actually separated into distinct political parties. Makes it easier to distinguish, maybe.

I get the idea that many people here bounce between “the GOP has left conservatism” and “any criticism of the GOP can and should be also applied to conservatism.” Also, to compare with the European context, our parties do the policy melding before the election, not in coalitions created after the election.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Pretty obvious projecting. Multiple people in this forum are engaged in obvious fascist, theocrat, bigot smears … and they wish that the people who noticed were themselves doing the same thing from the other direction.

Nope. You’re just lowering your standards of evidence to match what you feel is true in your heart. Just like the equivalent rabble-rousing culture warriors were doing in the 90s with Clinton and 00s with Obama to label them with every negative term in the book.

The best idea would be to drop the dumb labeling games. But I don’t see that happening any time soon. It has to play itself out. But to take your phrase, was Baby Midnight Bomber’s first words “Mommy, there’s conservative fascists under my bed again, make them stop?”

Wow. You really put me in my place with that "No, U!" retort.

[Teriz]

Given that conservatives are trying to make this into a theocracy ruled by the bible, the church, and an authoritarian who ignores democracy, I feel that that article is spot on.

[Edge-]

Pretty obvious projecting. Multiple people in this forum are engaged in obvious fascist, theocrat, bigot smears … and they wish that the people who noticed were themselves doing the same thing from the other direction.

This is such basic psychological projection 101 that it actually kinda hurts.

[Cthulhu 2020]

The fact that he thinks bailouts and social welfare are fascism is really all you need to know about just how badly tehdang failed civics.

I'm personally not a huge fan of bailouts, but I'd prefer bailouts to a crashing economy. Know what needs to accompany bailouts to prevent economic recessions in the future? Taxation, fines, regulation. But anything that prevents businesses from fucking over the common man is "big government" because for some reason conservatives think that businesses will self regulate and pay people proper wages.

One only needs to look at 3rd world countries with almost no regulations and enormous wealth gaps to see how utterly fucking stupid that is.

But when someone doesn't realize anti abortion, anti LGBT, forced prayers, "We are a christian nation" is literally theocracy, it tells you even more.

[Elder Millennial]

You should also go further to understand that fascism to American progressives and many Europeans means opposition to any number of progressive policies, and use of power for anything but to advance progressive politics.

"The left says I can't kill the gays and Jews anymore or call for their extermination without getting fired from my job and banned on social media. The left are so fascist. "

That's you buddy.