Like I expected, there is nothing to do in DF

[Nyel]

It just requires a tiny bit of brain power to utilize this metric to understand that WoW currently has at least a few million subscribers.

Who doubted that when usual 24h sales are ~ 3 million for the last expansions? It's just very unusual that they are not bragging about them after 18 days when they did so for the last three expansions either 9 (Legion + BfA) or 15 (Shadowlands) days later.

[prwraith]

Am I the only one who just flies around :P

[Chilela]

Who doubted that when usual 24h sales are ~ 3 million for the last expansions? It's just very unusual that they are not bragging about them after 18 days when they did so for the last three expansions either 9 (Legion + BfA) or 15 (Shadowlands) days later.

The fact that they aren't releasing sales numbers indicates, to me at least, that the early sales of DF underwhelmed, relatively speaking. Granted, it still probably sold reasonably well because it's a new WoW xpac, but between the state of WoW in the previous 2 expansions and the lack of major hook that DF had going in, things are starting to catch up to Blizz, and they have their work cut out for them in terms of rebuilding reputation. Fairly safe to presume DF is sitting at 3 mil+ regardless, though.

[Zoupa7]

This, too, is honestly a matter of opinion. Imho, WoD is only the third worst expansion, and only due to its drought (and afk gameplay). SL and BfA are fairly close to being tied for the worst expansion, with BfA only barely beating out SL as the worst. Not by much, though.

... which, again, is mostly opinion, but likely largely corroborated.

I'm not sure how people think BfA is worse than WoD. The only really bad thing about BfA for me was the GCD. Also compared to Legion it was stale and lacked class fantasy, but that hasn't really changed.

I'd say SL and WoD are the worst expansions (SL probably being the worst). BfA I have in the same tier as Cata as being mediocre expansions that wasted resources on things people didn't really care about. But they were both still good. Just mediocre for WoW's lofty standard.

DF for me is probably going to go down in the same tier as WoD and SL. The game and story have just became too stale and it's hard to get into. I couldn't even get into casual PvP this time around when I gained over 100 honor levels in BfA.

[Nyel]

The fact that they aren't releasing sales numbers indicates, to me at least, that the early sales of DF underwhelmed, relatively speaking. Granted, it still probably sold reasonably well because it's a new WoW xpac, but between the state of WoW in the previous 2 expansions and the lack of major hook that DF had going in, things are starting to catch up to Blizz, and they have their work cut out for them in terms of rebuilding reputation. Fairly safe to presume DF is sitting at 3 mil+ regardless, though.

I mean one thing is for sure: if they would have broken the Shadowlands' sales record, they would have bragged about it. They didn't.

[Thirtyrock]

Am I the only one who just flies around :P

Nah, I do it now that we have dragonriding. It's one of the funnest non-combat activities they've ever added, in my opinion.

[Koollan]

I'm not sure how people think BfA is worse than WoD. The only really bad thing about BfA for me was the GCD. Also compared to Legion it was stale and lacked class fantasy, but that hasn't really changed.

I'd say SL and WoD are the worst expansions (SL probably being the worst). BfA I have in the same tier as Cata as being mediocre expansions that wasted resources on things people didn't really care about. But they were both still good. Just mediocre for WoW's lofty standard.

DF for me is probably going to go down in the same tier as WoD and SL. The game and story have just became too stale and it's hard to get into. I couldn't even get into casual PvP this time around when I gained over 100 honor levels in BfA.

I wish I could agree. BfA's infinite treadmill was thousands of times worse than any other expansion had been, and that's saying something. The HoA, Azerite traits and Corruptions singlehandedly ruined my entire experience with WoW so badly that it genuinely upset me emotionally with how little fun and how little care that BfA was made in mind with. I genuinely believe that the Azerite systems were made with money in mind and not gameplay. All of their budget went into that, and iterating on the infinite treadmill - which is why we never got more than 2 Warfronts (even though there were more in the files). Oh, and Islands - an afterthought, sadly, which could have been iterated on. But... you know. We have to update the infinite treadmill for 8.2! 8.3! More infinite treadmill! More grind! Corruptions! Go, go, go!

PvP however, I'm going to have to disagree with you. PvP hasn't been in such a positive spot since WoD - BfA's PvP was absolutely horrendous, and SL's managed to make it even worse. DF goes back to how classes felt in WoD. Chunky, fun and fast - and not in the SL way where everybody played Sub Rogue 3s, and if you didn't, you wouldn't gain rating.

WoD was actually fun, if only for its raiding and PvP. It had a drought, which people forget was the reason the expansion was hated. Beyond AFKing in the garrison, of course. I actually had the capability to enjoy that expansion. BfA - I had zero capability to enjoy. It was simply impossible.

[Thirtyrock]

I mean one thing is for sure: if they would have broken the Shadowlands' sales record, they would have bragged about it. They didn't.

There's a really compelling reason for them to not be releasing any data, one way or another, surrounding sales right now. That reason is Microsoft's attempt to purchase Blizzard. Neither company would want major stock swings, in either direction, while the sale is pending, because it could play havoc with contract negotiations. Look at Elon's Twitter purchase and how, as soon as tech stock (both twitter & Tesla, not to mention the whole industry) started falling, Elon wanted out.

If Blizzard posts numbers and they're good, that could spike the stock price, making the purchase less attractive to Microsoft. If they post numbers and they're bad, that could tank the price, making the purchase less attractive to Microsoft. Right now, the stock is trading at 75ish while the agreed upon purchase price is 95. That's PROBABLY due to the FTC putting a hold on the deal, though, not anything underlying.

Posting any information that could dramatically affect the stock price could be detrimental to the deal. It also might be prohibitted by contract with Microsoft or even with the SEC/FTC rules. If blizzard posted bad numbers, and the stock tanked, but the deal is still pending, big investors could buy at a bargain and then cash out when the deal finalizes. Conversely, if the deal isn't finalized...You see how this gets complicated.

There are many reasons why they might not be sharing their sales data. This is the one I think is most likely. I doubt they're hiding it because of bad performance.

Obviously, I could be wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

I wish I could agree. BfA's infinite treadmill was thousands of times worse than any other expansion had been, and that's saying something. The HoA, Azerite traits and Corruptions singlehandedly ruined my entire experience with WoW so badly that it genuinely upset me emotionally with how little fun and how little care that BfA was made in mind with. I genuinely believe that the Azerite systems were made with money in mind and not gameplay. All of their budget went into that, and iterating on the infinite treadmill - which is why we never got more than 2 Warfronts (even though there were more in the files). Oh, and Islands - an afterthought, sadly, which could have been iterated on. But... you know. We have to update the infinite treadmill for 8.2! 8.3! More infinite treadmill! More grind! Corruptions! Go, go, go!

PvP however, I'm going to have to disagree with you. PvP hasn't been in such a positive spot since WoD - BfA's PvP was absolutely horrendous, and SL's managed to make it even worse. DF goes back to how classes felt in WoD. Chunky, fun and fast - and not in the SL way where everybody played Sub Rogue 3s, and if you didn't, you wouldn't gain rating.

WoD was actually fun, if only for its raiding and PvP. It had a drought, which people forget was the reason the expansion was hated. Beyond AFKing in the garrison, of course. I actually had the capability to enjoy that expansion. BfA - I had zero capability to enjoy. It was simply impossible.

I didn't play WoD at ALL, so I can't speak to any comparisons there. I didn't experience much of Legion, because I came back to play at the tail end. I leveled a few characters, got some mage tower artifacts and went into BFA excited...

BFA was my least favorite expansion because of titanforging/corruption/Azerite traits, etc. It was miserable and confusing and felt like any break you took was a missed opportunity.

SL was fine at the beginning, but it burned everyone out, especially because we were hoping for a break after BFA, where we didn't have to do as much daily grind. It was better, but not by enough. My entire guild quit, so I did too. I came back around the time they launched Season 4 and found a guild that didn't care as much about the daily chores.

Now, DF, has been amazing for me, so far. There's always stuff to do, but it doesn't feel like I HAVE to do it. I'm neither bored nor overwhelmed. Every time I log in there's something fun to do. The shine might wear off. I was also having fun at the beginning of SL.

[Nyel]

There's a really compelling reason for them to not be releasing any data, one way or another, surrounding sales right now. That reason is Microsoft's attempt to purchase Blizzard. Neither company would want major stock swings, in either direction, while the sale is pending, because it could play havoc with contract negotiations. Look at Elon's Twitter purchase and how, as soon as tech stock (both twitter & Tesla, not to mention the whole industry) started falling, Elon wanted out.

If Blizzard posts numbers and they're good, that could spike the stock price, making the purchase less attractive to Microsoft. If they post numbers and they're bad, that could tank the price, making the purchase less attractive to Microsoft. Right now, the stock is trading at 75ish while the agreed upon purchase price is 95. That's PROBABLY due to the FTC putting a hold on the deal, though, not anything underlying.

Posting any information that could dramatically affect the stock price could be detrimental to the deal. It also might be prohibitted by contract with Microsoft or even with the SEC/FTC rules. If blizzard posted bad numbers, and the stock tanked, but the deal is still pending, big investors could buy at a bargain and then cash out when the deal finalizes. Conversely, if the deal isn't finalized...You see how this gets complicated.

There are many reasons why they might not be sharing their sales data. This is the one I think is most likely. I doubt they're hiding it because of bad performance.

Obviously, I could be wrong.

Could be. I just doubt it. They bragged about Overwatch 2 player numbers / sales, didn't they? Then we have the 30 days free game time for players who buy Dragonflight now and just now they announced that players without DF but with an active sub can play Evokers.

So they have two DF promos just 2.5 weeks after DF launch - this indicates that the sales numbers can't be that good, honestly.

[Thirtyrock]

Could be. I just doubt it. They bragged about Overwatch 2 player numbers / sales, didn't they? Then we have the 30 days free game time for players who buy Dragonflight now and just now they announced that players without DF but with an active sub can play Evokers.

So they have two DF promos just 2.5 weeks after DF launch - this indicates that the sales numbers can't be that good, honestly.

Those are fair points. I'd have to look at the date on the Overwatch 2 numbers, to see when in the sale process they were posted (i.e. before it became public or after), but even then we're just guessing at intentions/motivations.

You might very well be right. I have a hard time believing it, but that's because of how much I, personally, am enjoying the expansion, along with my friends who have always been primarily raiders. That's not evidence, just explaining where some of my reasoning is coming from.

[Zoupa7]

I wish I could agree. BfA's infinite treadmill was thousands of times worse than any other expansion had been, and that's saying something. The HoA, Azerite traits and Corruptions singlehandedly ruined my entire experience with WoW so badly that it genuinely upset me emotionally with how little fun and how little care that BfA was made in mind with. I genuinely believe that the Azerite systems were made with money in mind and not gameplay. All of their budget went into that, and iterating on the infinite treadmill - which is why we never got more than 2 Warfronts (even though there were more in the files). Oh, and Islands - an afterthought, sadly, which could have been iterated on. But... you know. We have to update the infinite treadmill for 8.2! 8.3! More infinite treadmill! More grind! Corruptions! Go, go, go!

PvP however, I'm going to have to disagree with you. PvP hasn't been in such a positive spot since WoD - BfA's PvP was absolutely horrendous, and SL's managed to make it even worse. DF goes back to how classes felt in WoD. Chunky, fun and fast - and not in the SL way where everybody played Sub Rogue 3s, and if you didn't, you wouldn't gain rating.

WoD was actually fun, if only for its raiding and PvP. It had a drought, which people forget was the reason the expansion was hated. Beyond AFKing in the garrison, of course. I actually had the capability to enjoy that expansion. BfA - I had zero capability to enjoy. It was simply impossible.

DF's PvP is 4 years older than BfA's. There hasn't been a new BG since Seething Shore. So my comment about PvP was about that. DF is way too stale. They haven't come up with anything new in way too long even though the gearing is better and there is no GCD.

I am just immensely bored of running the same normal and epic BGs. There are no new maps, never mind new PvP modes.

I didn't even really get into PvP until Legion. I have no idea how people can run the same maps for over a decade.

[Lolites]

Legion subs were LOWER than WoD. Legion was objectively a garbage expansion.

source or GTFO
your SUBJECTIVE OPINION is not fact, im sure youve been told that about milion times already but it seems you still cant grasp that...

[JustaRandomReindeer]

BFA was my least favorite expansion because of titanforging/corruption/Azerite traits, etc. It was miserable and confusing and felt like any break you took was a missed opportunity.

Your comment just reminded me of titanforging. This is an unpopular opinion but nerfing and eventually removing titanforging was another mistake. Legion is probably the only expansion since forever where people went back and cleared raids even after the release of new raid tiers simply because you could get lucky with titanforging or legendaries. It felt great to open the group finder and see so many groups looking for people to clear ToV after you were done with your weekly guild ToS run. They need to find a way to make raids relevant for more than one patch again.

[VMSmith]

That's not evidence, just explaining where some of my reasoning is coming from.

Anecdotal evidence is still a form of evidence, just not a particularly useful one for ascertaining useful information about a wide swath of people's behaviors. It could simply be that DF is tailored to you and your friend's style of play and all of you inculcated a desire to play in each other, while people who have different playstyles saw what was offered in BfA and SL and decided to not give DF a chance because nothing in Blizzard's presentation of DF showed any difference for anyone other than those who wish to be raid-loggers.

If you're into competitive PvE/PvP and don't want to do anything else then DF has exactly what you want and other's who think like you have told you so. If you're not into that, then there's not much worth doing, as the OP notes and you've been told so, as well.

[Thirtyrock]

Your comment just reminded me of titanforging. This is an unpopular opinion but nerfing and eventually removing titanforging was another mistake. Legion is probably the only expansion since forever where people went back and cleared raids even after the release of new raid tiers simply because you could get lucky with titanforging or legendaries. It felt great to open the group finder and see so many groups looking for people to clear ToV after you were done with your weekly guild ToS run. They need to find a way to make raids relevant for more than one patch again.

Every raider I know personally hated it for that exact reason. You could never be DONE with content. That one trinket (or whatever item) that COULD be BIS if it TF'd high enough made it worth going back to otherwise defunct tiers. I hear what you're saying, but we had the polar opposite experience of the same feature.

I am a big fan of TimeWalking as a way to keep older content relevant and I think they should EXPAND timewalking so that you could have multiple raids from older dungeons. Maybe do a Timewalking tier near the end of the expansion, where, similar to fated raids, a different TW raid was open each week and that's the ONLY raid that's open. Hell, this could be a mid-expansion month or 2 month long event, as well, so they could give us something to do while putting MORE time and effort into the next tier of content. What if we had 6 months of a raid, 2 months of TW, next patch, 6 months of new raid, 2 months of TW, next patch 6 months of new raid, then alternate fated and TW until the next expansion came out? I could see that being a great way to break up the pace and bring back older content!

But to feel the need to CONSTANTLY rerun the earlier tiers of an expansion in the hopes of a TF was just awful, in my book.

- - - Updated - - -

Anecdotal evidence is still a form of evidence, just not a particularly useful one for ascertaining useful information about a wide swath of people's behaviors. It could simply be that DF is tailored to you and your friend's style of play and all of you inculcated a desire to play in each other, while people who have different playstyles saw what was offered in BfA and SL and decided to not give DF a chance because nothing in Blizzard's presentation of DF showed any difference for anyone other than those who wish to be raid-loggers.

If you're into competitive PvE/PvP and don't want to do anything else then DF has exactly what you want and other's who think like you have told you so. If you're not into that, then there's not much worth doing, as the OP notes and you've been told so, as well.

This is, essentially, where I've come down. Maybe I was or wasn't the intended audience, but Legion through SL just did not keep me engaged because I kept getting burned out either from the daily chores or from the emotions that came from not doing them when my guild/group expected them to be done (even just by everyone else doing it without mandating it). DF has dropped most of that.

I always have enjoyed the other aspects of WoW, but not as much as raiding. So now that those other activities are optional, I can do them or not as I please. That's great, for me. It's not great for people who liked those specific activities OR who don't see a clear progression path for their characters, since so many of the activities in DF don't directly reward player power.

I think DF has TONS to do outside of "competitive PvE/PvP" (quotes because the definition of competitive is subjective), it just isn't mandatory for raiders BECAUSE it doesn't directly reward player power. That's a tough thing to balance. How do you have engaging, rewarding content, that is rewarding for raiders and non-raiders alike? PVP is a bit easier since you can tailor the gear in such a way that PVE gear isn't attractive, for the most part.

I don't know the answer. Obviously the balance is WAY better for me and my friends, but way worse for a lot of people in this thread. The idea that there is "nothing to do" is just false. The suggestion that "there isn't enough to do to progress my character if I don't want to raid or M+" is a position I can respect and it's something I think Blizzard should address. I actually came up with, earlier in this thread, an idea: What if the Great Vault Raid tier was actually Raid OR world content? Like, let's say you clear X number of bosses in the raid, OK, you get raid gear from Great Vault. If you kill less than X number, you get the world content options.

I wouldn't want to add a whole other category on top of the PVP, M+, Raid because then that makes it more pressing for raiders. But if you could, somehow, set the Raid or M+ tiers to world content instead...That seems like it threads the needle.

But that's the biggest issue I see with the expansion, at this point. There's tons of stuff to do, whether group content or not. It just doesn't reward solo players well enough for their efforts. If they could address this without making it mandatory for raiders, they'd have really done the game a service!

[Lolites]

That one trinket (or whatever item) that COULD be BIS if it TF'd high enough

i think their biggest mistake with TF (and many other features tbh) is they just scrapped it instead of iterating, for example titanforging, its biggest issue as you named it could be solved by giving items "ceiling" (for example item from normal could titanforge only enough to be either HC or just bit short of HC quality) with some currency system to SLOWLY upgrade the items if they didnt titanforge

[Thirtyrock]

i think their biggest mistake with TF (and many other features tbh) is they just scrapped it instead of iterating, for example titanforging, its biggest issue as you named it could be solved by giving items "ceiling" (for example item from normal could titanforge only enough to be either HC or just bit short of HC quality) with some currency system to SLOWLY upgrade the items if they didnt titanforge

This is how Warforging started, it was a 5 ilvl increase and that was it. It was a "oh, nice, I got a WF" not "Oh, damn, it didn't TF, guess I vendor it again". I was OK with that iteration. I also like the secondary stat randomness we have now, +leech, or +speed, or Indestructible are all nice to haves that don't really make or break a piece of gear.

[LedZeppelin]

go to the gym op lmao

[Lolites]

This is how Warforging started

well not exactly, as it was if i remember corectly closer to the tier it WF from than to upper, but yeah, wf was imo far better in that regard, it would ofc need some iteration due to m+ and stuff but could work

[MoFalcon]

Usually I’m not a debbie downer, but one of my biggest fears going into Dragonflight was that there wasn’t really anything that stood out as new endgame content. From the date I’m writing this yes, the raids and Mythic+ will unlock in a couple days, but that’s typical content.

I finished all my Mythics for the week so I’m locked out, all the world quests are done on the map and I finished all the unique dragon riding races. I consider myself a casual player and usually only spend a few hours per week even playing. The fact that as a casual I already feel dried up on content is not a good sign…and the expansion isn’t even 2 weeks old yet. Don’t get me wrong, the dungeons are great and so I always enjoy Mythic+ and the raid looks cool themed.

I’m not necessarily looking for new ‘systems’ like we’ve seen in past expansions, but I don’t think many would disagree that DF definitely feels like there is something missing.

Don't feed the troll. There is soooo much to do, he's either stupid or he is trying to get a rise out of the community. Either way, its a waste of time. Ive wasted too much myself.