m+ tuning doesnt dissapoint

[BiggestNoob]

M+ is overtuned garbage right now. It needs a blanket 30% nerf across the board and also targeted fixes to all the oneshot mechanics to make them not oneshot. +20 and below should never have anything that oneshots you.

They're mostly fine. Most of the issue is pugs not knowing how to do the dungeons, use their tools effectively, or thinking ilvl/rio = skill. If you just slam invite on anyone with a high ilvl then get destroyed by the key, realize the top groups are doing it at 5-7 levels higher than that with maybe 5-10 more ilvl, and they did these keys in the first 2 weeks with 390-395 gear.

There are a few things that need to be changed, but almost everything is fine right now. An example is last boss RLP in mechanic frequency, certain overlaps, and the fire DoT. A lot of people on lower keys fail this dungeon and think other things are overtuned, but outside of edge cases like Flamegullet on fort + raging without a soothe, which is completely skippable, nothing else is.

[Lahis]

Thundering as seasonal affix sucks

more often than not you get the buff in total useless situations, or people still clear way too early, or you get them in really annoying boss situations where there is already 5 different other mechanics to keep track off

I just clear Thundering ASAP because can't trust a puggee to clear is properly at the last second. And stunned (and dead) tank is more detrimental for the run than the dps loss from clearing the buff quickly.

[Anzen]

They're mostly fine. Most of the issue is pugs not knowing how to do the dungeons, use their tools effectively, or thinking ilvl/rio = skill. If you just slam invite on anyone with a high ilvl then get destroyed by the key, realize the top groups are doing it at 5-7 levels higher than that with maybe 5-10 more ilvl, and they did these keys in the first 2 weeks with 390-395 gear.

There are a few things that need to be changed, but almost everything is fine right now. An example is last boss RLP in mechanic frequency, certain overlaps, and the fire DoT. A lot of people on lower keys fail this dungeon and think other things are overtuned, but outside of edge cases like Flamegullet on fort + raging without a soothe, which is completely skippable, nothing else is.

I dunno, I feel like there is still some way to go with balance. SBG and CoS for example feel way easier than the other dungeons.

Even using your example of RLP, I think on top of your suggestions there could be some QoL improvements made to Chillstorm/Thundering interaction on the first boss.

E.g. a player isn't forced to decide whether to remove his thundering by running into melee, but dropping chillstorm in the middle of the group, or running out with chillstorm and stunning multiple players.

Sure, more astute players would just ensure they've cleared thundering before chillstorm goes out, but it's already hard enough to expect pugs to dodge mechanics happening in real time on their screens - expecting them to make plays that mitigate future mechanics is a bit much.

In AA Tyrannical Overgrown Ancient remains a cockblock for many groups.

[kenn9530]

reductio ad absurdum of your argument is that you could clear +20s naked
without % increases the mechanics don't exist because they do nothing

No its that the mechanics are the same, gear just allows you to beat the math its just that simple.

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And that's fine. Nobody is saying you should do high keys. Just that you very clearly haven't, and don't know how they work. And so maybe it'd be better to just stay out of things, instead of proffering blatantly uninformed opinions. That just doesn't help anyone, or move things forward. All we've done for almost a page now is identify that yes indeed, you don't know what you're talking about. And now we're back where we started. This isn't going anywhere, so we should just drop it.

Its just clear you have no idea what you are talking about since you have no exp in higher keys at all, if you are skilled higher keys are fairly easy you either time it or you dont its just that simple, you learn the most optimal way to do each dungeon and you just do it the same each time, that is not a challenge.

[Simulacrum]

No its that the mechanics are the same, gear just allows you to beat the math its just that simple.

the gear means the mechanics don't exist

[Tiradon]

I'm not even bothering to do anything above a +15 right now. I'm 397 and currently still waiting for a set piece to get into my bag either via doing Normal/Heroic raid and M+ 8/8 vault weekly.

We'll see when I start to push, maybe a bit down the line once I get more gear.

[Tojara]

What a weird argument. Scaling and mechanics are both important lol. If you over gear things you can ignore things you otherwise couldn't. When you go into something with an expected iLvL you're meant to play mechanics properly otherwise you just die. There are mechanics in expansions old raid content as well that you can flat out ignore because they don't do anything to you, and that applies perfectly to M+.

For example you aren't "meant" in TJS to take the water elementals LoS surge, nor are you suppose to let the humanoids get their tidal bursts off. Depending on your relative health pool and the strength of your healer, you can take those just fine. It's clearly not INTENDED to be taken, but most people don't understand that these are important interrupts or that this is something that should clearly be LoS by almost your entire group.

It's the entire purpose of an RPG. You grow in power it allows you to overpower things that you use to find hard and in a scaling environment you can push yourself to the point where you have to play the mechanics properly again.

[Xath]

They know as much as they know i am only here for heroic with no real plans to push forward with them in Mythic its why i was never assigned anything of importance either. I have known a few of the raiders for over a decade and used those relationships that i earned when selling cmode carries during MoP but again i am nothing more then a rental a warm body who will play decent to good enough but not exceptional ( i also took no trinket or tier pieces either but i did take a weapon ). Could i do better and more? Sure by what is the point if my goal is only to be here for AoTC and KSM then unsub anyhow? MMO's might be a long term gaming option for you and others but i want more different gaming experiences then a set in stone commitment and after getting AoTC i can clearly say i have no motivation to carry forward since i do not chase gear or rankings or logs which more then likely means MMO's have lost their luster to me.

Except you haven't beat the game lol. Unlike M+ more than just higher numbers are added to mythic encounters mythic Rasz is vastly different from heroic for example.

[Simulacrum]

Except you haven't beat the game lol. Unlike M+ more than just higher numbers are added to mythic encounters mythic Rasz is vastly different from heroic for example.

higher numbers adds more mechanics

eg as the post above yours mentions, until you reach a really high key level, the water elementals' surge in TJS shouldn't get LOSed because you take no damage from it and you lose damage when you do that so it's a stupid thing to do. add enough numbers that it kills you and you have to LOS it which means it goes from not existing as a mechanic to existing. same with most the other abilities in most dungeons. until they start killing you, you just play as if they aren't there and that is a better strategy than playing as if they are. the mechanics change when you have to play as if they exist.

[chiddie]

And that's your decision. Expecting to be given the same thing as someone who priorities a schedule to raid is like a work mate of yours expecting the same perks and pay as you but doesn't turn up all the time. That wouldn't be fair right?

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But wasting time on a fan site of a game you wouldn't waste your time playing is better?

The comparison is flawed.

I don’t need other 4 random people in my office, that change every hour, to do my stuff.

Nor I need to waste other time searching for those 4 random people.

The basic issue that casuals have with M+ is that requires a PARTY.

It’s as if in D3 you can’t do rifts above T16 unless you are in a party.

People do like difficult content, they don’t like relying on strangers to do it and they want to do it at their own pace.

Being able to play with a schedule is often not a choice, you can or you can’t depending on how your real life is set.

[Osmeric]

People do like difficult content

Most people who play games don't like difficult content, parties required or not.

[Ashnazg]

Most people who play games don't like difficult content, parties required or not.

I suppose you have some metrics to back up that argument?

The core issue is that with the current M+ system in place, greed entices people to attempt dungeons that they do not have the appropriate skill level or gear for. Everyone wants the rewards from M20+ while in many cases being an M10 or M5 player at best. This leads to people attempting challenges way above their skill level, failing, feeling resentful and getting toxic over it.

Its like if a ski resort announced that anyone who makes it to the end of a black diamond gets massive prizes. You're going to have a ton of people attempting that run who have no business being on blacks in the first place, even with the very real fear of physical trauma holding them back. In a game, its a no brainer.

People like difficult content that is appropriate to their ability. Its only natural. The current system forces them above their skill level.

[kamuimac]

I suppose you have some metrics to backup that argument?

ofc - just notice how many peopel play games on smartphones

[Osmeric]

I suppose you have some metrics to back up that argument?

https://www.gameinformer.com/b/featu...ard-games.aspx

"And this data shows that high difficulty is a niche value. There is a small percentage of the overall player population that genuinely enjoy highly difficult games because they find it satisfying to the psychological need we all have to feel masterful. But the vast majority of gamers – even avid gamers that are playing many hours each week – do not stay engaged with highly difficult games, or even want to re-engage after one game session (even if during that session they feel it was fun). By contrast, most players want to have some bursts of higher challenge, but find satisfaction of their mastery needs mainly through long plateaus of gameplay that allow them to easily face-plant challenges."

The article also states that the data shows there is massive churn out after a typical player wipes four times on a boss.

[BiggestNoob]

I suppose you have some metrics to back up that argument?

The core issue is that with the current M+ system in place, greed entices people to attempt dungeons that they do not have the appropriate skill level or gear for. Everyone wants the rewards from M20+ while in many cases being an M10 or M5 player at best. This leads to people attempting challenges way above their skill level, failing, feeling resentful and getting toxic over it.

Its like if a ski resort announced that anyone who makes it to the end of a black diamond gets massive prizes. You're going to have a ton of people attempting that run who have no business being on blacks in the first place, even with the very real fear of physical trauma holding them back. In a game, its a no brainer.

People like difficult content that is appropriate to their ability. Its only natural. The current system forces them above their skill level.

There's also the issue of rio/ilvl not being very indicative of skill. If you get a group of +10 players together and they progress, learn dungeons, look at what better teams are doing, optimize routing and gear up together, they'll push way above what pugs are doing in just a few weeks, even in less gear.

Something as simple as just having a consistent group of people for interrupts and knowing what you're interrupting or when to CC goes a very long way. The pug/ilvl/rio meta results in a sea of 400-405 players who are struggling through 16s and 17s when they should be very easily timing 18s and going for 20s. So few people seem to want to have a community of people to play with and form fairly consistent groups, but it's what all the top players do. Instead, they just roll fotm classes and go for ilvl, because that's what gets you invites.

The zero to KSM thing growl did is a good example. If a new player wants to get into M+ and push high keys, or even just go for 20s, the only real way to do that seems to be working up the raiding ladder first and keying with guildmates. Or just overgearing the content to pug it.

[Shaqthefat]

https://www.gameinformer.com/b/featu...ard-games.aspx



The article also states that the data shows there is massive churn out after a typical player wipes four times on a boss.

People who want easier content that they can go through without trouble shouldn't force their play style on everyone else. It's just as obnoxious and unhealthy for a game as people wanting everything to be extremely hard.

[Osmeric]

People who want easier content that they can go through without trouble shouldn't force their play style on everyone else. It's just as obnoxious and unhealthy for a game as people wanting everything to be extremely hard.

Yes, consumers who are tempting game developers to make games for them, and not for you, are imposing their play style on you. How dare they not prioritize your wants over their own. The scoundrels!

[Glorious Leader]

https://www.gameinformer.com/b/featu...ard-games.aspx



The article also states that the data shows there is massive churn out after a typical player wipes four times on a boss.

This

". By contrast, most players want to have some bursts of higher challenge, but find satisfaction of their mastery needs mainly through long plateaus of gameplay that allow them to easily face-plant challenges."

is why God of War Ragnarok is a solid game. It has just enough kick back but enough feeling like a bad ass.

[Shaqthefat]

Yes, consumers who are tempting game developers to make games for them, and not for you, are imposing their play style on you. How dare they not prioritize your wants over their own. The scoundrels!

This is a horrible response because you can use it to justify the exact thing you're trying to argue against.

I want people who don't like harder content to not touch the harder content and let people who want the harder content to be able to play their harder content. Casual players can enjoy all the casual content they want, I even want there to be more casual content for casual players. The issue occures when casual players start trying to replace harder content with easier content.

Asking for blizzard to make Shadowmoon Burial Grounds the default tuning for a mythic+ dungeon is the casual version of a toxic elitist who wants the game to be extremely hard. Both are unhealthy for the game because both are trying to impose their play styles on other players.

[Osmeric]

This is a horrible response because you can use it to justify the exact thing you're trying to argue against.

I want people who don't like harder content to not touch the harder content and let people who want the harder content to be able to play their harder content. Casual players can enjoy all the casual content they want, I even want there to be more casual content for casual players. The issue occures when casual players start trying to replace harder content with easier content.

Asking for blizzard to make Shadowmoon Burial Grounds the default tuning for a mythic+ dungeon is the casual version of a toxic elitist who wants the game to be extremely hard. Both are unhealthy for the game because both are trying to impose their play styles on other players.

I'm not complaining that hardcore players want hardcore games. I'm laughing at hardcore players who need to pretend that hardcores are a larger fraction of the player population than they are.

Asking Blizzard to make a game for me or I'll walk is perfectly fine. You can do that too. I encourage everyone to honestly represent to Blizzard what it is that's needed to keep them as a player. All our dollars get votes.

I don't think Blizzard has been counting those votes all that well, though.