[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[Svifnymr]

I don't know much about any controversy over the first Ms. Marvel film, honestly.

First trailers, folks figured Brie Larson was wooden and it became a "you're a misogynist because you think women always have to smile". Then the defense shifted she was trying to not be emotional, though of course the point of the movie was that she was emotional while the kree weren't, but meh. I haven't liked her in her other movies so don't care.

Though the focus testing for The Marvels is going well and the talent packaging is, *chef's kiss*.

There is a time crunch going on right now with a lot of properties. So it might not get out the door for the SB. But it's being worked on and scoopers are posting about it here and there so it's not really secret anymore.

Vellani's media training is spectacular and her representation is doing a phenomenal job. Very well-liked.

I liked Ms Marvel, and Rambeau (might be close to right spelling...) was good in Scarlet Witch, so should be interesting. Do wonder what the actual plot will be, but honestly I haven't been to a theater in years and don't see it happening anytime soon.

[Immitis]

I'm not one of those people who hate captain marvel and i thought the first one was okay but im just not hyped at all for the marvels. it will be nice to see ms marvel again but out of all the upcoming projects its the one im probably just going to watch to follow the lore, unless something big happens or something to drum up my hype.

ant man though im really hyped for. majors was great in loki so im interested in how he plays kang differently and i could watch paul rudd do anything.

although thunderbolts is kind of low on my list as well for hype. like the premise is dope but idk, i was hoping for like a norman osbourne esque dark avengers type arc and idk what exactly were getting with this movie and idk how i feel about harrison ford being red hulk but i am interested to see that maybe lead to some more world war hulk stuff

everything else movie wise im pretty hyped for you got the big blade reboot you got the big finale to guardians, the big triple ant man, got the new cap and bucky adventures

[Syegfryed]

Im more surprised marvel is making a white person lead a black and an muslin one in their movies in this era.

First movie of captain marvel was extremely "meh", but ok(i think it lost track in the end), but those days marvel movies are so bad that im not holding my breath anymore, have to see how well antman is going to be to see if this one will follow

[everydaygamer]

Captain Marvel was fine I just didn't see the point of doing an origin story in between Infinity War and End Game then have her barely be in End Game anyways.

[MrLachyG]

Captain Marvel was fine I just didn't see the point of doing an origin story in between Infinity War and End Game then have her barely be in End Game anyways.

would've been a bit odd to just see her show up out of nowhere to rescue Stark etc. Also it did more than just introduce Captain Marvel; gave us the Rambeau's, the Skrull, how Fury lost his eye. lots of background information and setting up for future movies/tv shows

[everydaygamer]

would've been a bit odd to just see her show up out of nowhere to rescue Stark etc. Also it did more than just introduce Captain Marvel; gave us the Rambeau's, the Skrull, how Fury lost his eye. lots of background information and setting up for future movies/tv shows

My issue is it's placement. They could have shown the movie before infinity war and it would have worked just as well.

[Kyphael]

Unless Rogue is in this and it ends with her putting Carol Danvers in a coma after stealing her powers, my interest level is all low.

[MrLachyG]

My issue is it's placement. They could have shown the movie before infinity war and it would have worked just as well.

I mean the post credits scene in Infinity War would've been wasted then. I disagree with your assessment; the placement of the movie was correct. If they had done it before Infinity War, then you would've had everyone expecting her to show up in Infinity War. and that simply wasn't something they wanted in terms of movie flow.

- - - Updated - - -

Unless Rogue is in this and it ends with her putting Carol Danvers in a coma after stealing her powers, my interest level is all low.

I don't see Rogue making an appearance in The Marvels... no X-Men yet

[Endus]

I don't see Rogue making an appearance in The Marvels... no X-Men yet

I feel people all assume we're definitely getting the '90s Fox movie crew in the MCU, but the X-men timeline is way longer and many of those characters are not that significant to the X-men overall. Including Rogue. Beast and Iceman and Angel are all way more integral (founding members, and still involved, generally), the more-recent crew involves a lot of really weird characters like Doop and Glob Herman. I'd love to see Fantomex in the MCU, because Fantomex is fucking hilarious. If they want to go nostalgic, with the way the MCU works, I'd almost expect the originals. If not, then a school filled with the modern craziness. Especially since either way, you cut some of the connections to the Fox films.

[Fabinas]

Watched BP2 yesterday.

Boring. Nothing exciting. I get it's an introduction movie to BP successor and for Riri Ironheart, but really couldn't care less. Namor seemed nonsensical to me. Join us or Die? I couldn't accept he was the villain there, and yet he was.

Shuri was ok-ish as BP, but the fact they couldn't get even a single sample of the herb in Wakanda (noone had a dried up one in their phytology book? lol) but had to use DNA from a similar one from Talokan seemed a bit contrived. Power of the Talokan warriors was all over the place and Riri was underwhelming. Didn't like her role being the point of contention between the two secret nations.

The final battle ended up being just Namor against the whole Wakanda and would have ended in defeat of the latter, had Shuri not succeeded with the herb recreation. I know there had to be a showdown between the two, but having Namor singlehandedly destroying all of Wakanda's defenses and airships, just by flying around with his little feather wings, i found it meh.

[Endus]

Watched BP2 yesterday.

Boring. Nothing exciting. I get it's an introduction movie to BP successor and for Riri Ironheart, but really couldn't care less. Namor seemed nonsensical to me. Join us or Die? I couldn't accept he was the villain there, and yet he was.

Shuri was ok-ish as BP, but the fact they couldn't get even a single sample of the herb in Wakanda (noone had a dried up one in their phytology book? lol) but had to use DNA from a similar one from Talokan seemed a bit contrived. Power of the Talokan warriors was all over the place and Riri was underwhelming. Didn't like her role being the point of contention between the two secret nations.

The final battle ended up being just Namor against the whole Wakanda and would have ended in defeat of the latter, had Shuri not succeeded with the herb recreation. I know there had to be a showdown between the two, but having Namor singlehandedly destroying all of Wakanda's defenses and airships, just by flying around with his little feather wings, i found it meh.

I just watched it when it hit Disney+ too.

They had three stories they tried to cram into one movie, and it didn't work, IMO; like you're describing, they had to cut short all three to their mutual detriment.

I like Riri as a character and her portrayal here's actually really good. But she's irrelevant to the plot. You could have had literally anyone be "the scientist" who made the device, and cut all Riri's presence completely. She contributes no specific insight that changes anything in the plot of the film, and isn't the lynchpin of any particular fight scene, other than the one initial moment where she takes out the drone, which is literally only necessary because they said there's a drone. If it had continued that way, it would've been fine, but her presence in the rest of the film was just superfluous. And I really liked her, so that's irritating.

Namor's fine, IMO. The big shift, though, from Atlantis to Talokan, deeply changes things in ways the film doesn't address; they're not globally present and the "I have a massive army" framing doesn't work nearly as well, particularly as we don't see it. We see a couple hundred, maybe, at best. Sure, they're superhuman, but "I have an elite force of superhuman warriors who specialize in guerilla action" isn't what Namor said. And "Imperius Rex" only made sense with the Greco-Roman theming of Atlantis; it should've been dropped because a Mayan Namor has no reason to use Latin, and if he's speaking Mayan, there's no need to translate it into Latin.

Shuri, bafflingly, doesn't have an arc. She just blips from "I want to burn the world" to "maybe burning the world is bad", and there's no reason for the shift. And we know she really meant she wanted to burn the world, because that's why Killmonger is the one who greets her in the Ancestral Plane; he's there because it really is what she feels in her deepest heart. And he's right; she's just like he was. Which is great, narratively; she has every reason to be. But the way to write that kind of arc involves the character burning things down, and standing in the ashes, and then realizing "I don't want this, oh god, what have I done". They wrote Shuri as a villain, until the final moment with Namor, when she just shrugs and says "nah, I guess I really don't want this" and stops. The audience doesn't get any payoff for her arc, it just . . . stops before it reaches the end. All that characterization, tossed, because Shuri decides she isn't who the movie spent the entire run-time telling us over and over that she was. It also cheapens Killmonger as a villain, in BP, because who knows? Maybe he would have had the same kind of moment and become a really good King; BP2 retroactively argues that killing him was unnecessary.

The herb recreation was meant to be a "Shuri learns to be more spiritual" bit, but that doesn't come across at all.

And last, this is possibly the worst example for a main character in battle scenes clearly not having any fight training whatsoever since Iron Fist. Letitia Wright is slight, which is fine, in theory. Scarjo's not exactly huge, and Gal Gadot's slim even if tall. Not to mention literally the entire Dora Milaje in this film itself. Shuri's Black Panther doesn't feel like it hits with power, at all, and it's probably CGI issues because we sure don't see someone in the suit kicking ass outside of CGI moments. Even the big fight with Namor has a couple big CGI hits and then they're both staggering around. It's a problem specific with Shuri's Black Panther, because you don't get that feel with any of the other ladies in the film.

I'll forgive Namor's stupid footwings but only because they're comic-accurate and we can heartily blame 80+ years of comics history (seriously, he debuted in 1939).

[Orby]

I feel people all assume we're definitely getting the '90s Fox movie crew in the MCU, but the X-men timeline is way longer and many of those characters are not that significant to the X-men overall. Including Rogue. Beast and Iceman and Angel are all way more integral (founding members, and still involved, generally), the more-recent crew involves a lot of really weird characters like Doop and Glob Herman. I'd love to see Fantomex in the MCU, because Fantomex is fucking hilarious. If they want to go nostalgic, with the way the MCU works, I'd almost expect the originals. If not, then a school filled with the modern craziness. Especially since either way, you cut some of the connections to the Fox films.

You are the first Fantomex fan I have seen. Not a fan personally but glad to see there are people that actually like him :P

With me, knowing how Disney/Marvel operate they could go with more of a 'Second Genesis' (giant Size X-Men) first movie, it had a very diverse cast, great marketability there. And its always a good jump in point that not many adaptations have tackled. A way to have the original team there but not be the focus, but move forward too. My only problem and this goes alot with X-Men movies is that the large cast could create a lack of connection and lack of development time given to them.

Disney/Marvel have been doing their own thing in the MCU, not necessarily following existing lore but being their own unique universe, so maybe they could do something completely different. Just do a more school setting. More focus on Xavier and Magneto and their differences and building to the whole X-Men movie itself.

I am interested to see what they do with it.

[Syegfryed]

Black panther suffered because they refuse to recast and wanted to milk the actor death, movie was supposed to be totally different, but things went off-track with re-shot and but they came up with this one.

Shuri is an ok character, but its not black panther material, she does not have presence/charisma, neither build to impose a hero figure like T'chala did.

Iron heart was there just because she was black and they wanted to set up her series, her creation of the "vibranium detector" is bogus, Namor actions in the movie were too contrived and didn't make much sense, like, why would he give Shuri that thing? and it happens to be the secret to get the powers? fuck off.


From what i heard Antman was re-shot a lot too, someone was supposed to die but it will not anymore, so i hope this don't fuck over the movie

[everydaygamer]

I like Riri as a character and her portrayal here's actually really good. But she's irrelevant to the plot. You could have had literally anyone be "the scientist" who made the device, and cut all Riri's presence completely. She contributes no specific insight that changes anything in the plot of the film, and isn't the lynchpin of any particular fight scene, other than the one initial moment where she takes out the drone, which is literally only necessary because they said there's a drone. If it had continued that way, it would've been fine, but her presence in the rest of the film was just superfluous. And I really liked her, so that's irritating.

This is true and if we were never going to see Riri again I would agree, but since they do plan to use her again this is a convenient way of introducing her to the MCU and there is nothing wrong with that.

Shuri, bafflingly, doesn't have an arc. She just blips from "I want to burn the world" to "maybe burning the world is bad", and there's no reason for the shift. And we know she really meant she wanted to burn the world, because that's why Killmonger is the one who greets her in the Ancestral Plane; he's there because it really is what she feels in her deepest heart. And he's right; she's just like he was. Which is great, narratively; she has every reason to be. But the way to write that kind of arc involves the character burning things down, and standing in the ashes, and then realizing "I don't want this, oh god, what have I done". They wrote Shuri as a villain, until the final moment with Namor, when she just shrugs and says "nah, I guess I really don't want this" and stops. The audience doesn't get any payoff for her arc, it just . . . stops before it reaches the end. All that characterization, tossed, because Shuri decides she isn't who the movie spent the entire run-time telling us over and over that she was. It also cheapens Killmonger as a villain, in BP, because who knows? Maybe he would have had the same kind of moment and become a really good King; BP2 retroactively argues that killing him was unnecessary.

You say that like this is the only way that plot line can end. Shuri knew full well what the consequences of killing Namor were, the question was if she cared. Her arc is her trying to deal with her own grief and trying to figure out what kind of person she was gonna become. Was she gonna walk down a path of compassion and understanding like her brother or would she follow Killmonger and selfishly sacrifice everyone else in pursuit of satisfying her own desires? In the end, she decided to follow her brother's example and finally allowed herself to grieve for her lost family.

[Endus]

This is true and if we were never going to see Riri again I would agree, but since they do plan to use her again this is a convenient way of introducing her to the MCU and there is nothing wrong with that.

I have no problem with the introduction, she just should've been woven into the plot.

Help Shuri try to work through the herb stuff, come up with an insight that Shuri's overlooked.
Have the Talokans seriously damage the ship so it's sinking, and Riri's able to retune her blasts to a welding torch she can use to seal up the breach, as Okoye and her sister keep the Talokans off her as she works, or something.

Just other moments where Riri's presence meaningfully affects the plot in, like, any way possible.

That they had her and Shuri working in the same lab and never talking about science stuff, basically is criminal, IMO. You put Tony Stark and Bruce Banner in a lab, and they're criticising each other and bantering and one of them's gonna say something that sparks the other, which is why it's great. In BP2, Riri just moves into the background to work on her suit and other than a couple brief moments in a montage, there's no real interaction between her and Shuri in there.

If I had to sum up my issues with BP2 in two words, they'd be "lost opportunities".

You say that like this is the only way that plot line can end. Shuri knew full well what the consequences of killing Namor were, the question was if she cared. Her arc is her trying to deal with her own grief and trying to figure out what kind of person she was gonna become. Was she gonna walk down a path of compassion and understanding like her brother or would she follow Killmonger and selfishly sacrifice everyone else in pursuit of satisfying her own desires? In the end, she decided to follow her brother's example and finally allowed herself to grieve for her lost family.

I disagree that the question was "if she cared". They answered that question multiple times prior to the fight scene; Shuri didn't care. She'd burn the world for vengeance's sake. They didn't present her as someone with two paths before her; they presented her as confidently walking down the path of vengeance, and even when confronted with Killmonger's spirit, she rejected the warning.

Shifting that path didn't feel earned, IMO. That's my point. Everything about her was aimed towards one outcome, and then at the last second, we got a rug-pull and she's heroic now, rather than the budding villain she's been presented as the entire film up to that point. Hell, even her time in Talokan, she saw its beauty and Namor's empathy for his own people, combined with his iron brutality he'd resort to in their defense, much like her own. What's the meaningful difference between Namor, the villain, and Shuri, the hero, in the end here? That she doesn't kill him? Namor didn't want to kill the Wakandans, either; he wanted an ally against the surface world. In fact, lemme go see if I can get the actual dialogue;

Namor: "It is no longer about the scientist. For centuries the surface nations have conquered and enslaved people like us. Over resources. Since the time I buried my mother, I have prepared my people for the time they will come for us. And that machine is the sign that the time is now. I need to know if Wakanda is an ally or an enemy."

He wants an alliance.

And what do we get at the end?

Shuri: "Yield, and Wakanda will protect your oceans. We will protect your secrets. Yield, and your people will live."

Namor basically gets exactly what he wants, in the end. The only thing he really is asked to give up is the idea of pre-emptively striking the other surface nations to render them powerless, but with Wakanda's protection and alliance he probably doesn't actually need that.

If Namor's a villain, so is Shuri. And in the end, she gives Namor what he wants. We're not really given that much of an emotional reason for her to choose this path, she just kind of does, out of nowhere. That's the bit I find frustrating. All the talk about wanting to "burn the world" and her desire for vengeance, and she just literally never acts on any of it. It's presented as her character, until it isn't. It's like if you wrote a Punisher story about how badly he wanted to kill the crime boss who killed his wife and child, and then he had the guy at his feet, gun pointed to his head, and then Frank said "y'know, vengeance is wrong. Promise me you won't kill anyone else, and you'll work with me to clean up this city legitimately." That wouldn't be satisfying, right? I find BP2 unsatisfying for the same reasons.

[everydaygamer]

Shifting that path didn't feel earned, IMO. That's my point. Everything about her was aimed towards one outcome, and then at the last second, we got a rug-pull and she's heroic now, rather than the budding villain she's been presented as the entire film up to that point. Hell, even her time in Talokan, she saw its beauty and Namor's empathy for his own people, combined with his iron brutality he'd resort to in their defense, much like her own. What's the meaningful difference between Namor, the villain, and Shuri, the hero, in the end here? That she doesn't kill him? Namor didn't want to kill the Wakandans, either; he wanted an ally against the surface world. In fact, lemme go see if I can get the actual dialogue;

Namor: "It is no longer about the scientist. For centuries the surface nations have conquered and enslaved people like us. Over resources. Since the time I buried my mother, I have prepared my people for the time they will come for us. And that machine is the sign that the time is now. I need to know if Wakanda is an ally or an enemy."

He wants an alliance.

And what do we get at the end?

Shuri: "Yield, and Wakanda will protect your oceans. We will protect your secrets. Yield, and your people will live."

Namor basically gets exactly what he wants, in the end. The only thing he really is asked to give up is the idea of pre-emptively striking the other surface nations to render them powerless, but with Wakanda's protection and alliance he probably doesn't actually need that.

If Namor's a villain, so is Shuri. And in the end, she gives Namor what he wants. We're not really given that much of an emotional reason for her to choose this path, she just kind of does, out of nowhere. That's the bit I find frustrating. All the talk about wanting to "burn the world" and her desire for vengeance, and she just literally never acts on any of it. It's presented as her character, until it isn't. It's like if you wrote a Punisher story about how badly he wanted to kill the crime boss who killed his wife and child, and then he had the guy at his feet, gun pointed to his head, and then Frank said "y'know, vengeance is wrong. Promise me you won't kill anyone else, and you'll work with me to clean up this city legitimately." That wouldn't be satisfying, right? I find BP2 unsatisfying for the same reasons.

Namor wanted an ally in a war against the entire surface world, at the end they agree to protect his ocean in exchange for getting him to back off on global genocide, it was a compromise.

Shuri wanting to avenge her mother does not make her villain, she is completely justified in wanting to kill Namor especially since he's made it clear he isn't gonna stop until Wakanda submits to him or is wiped out. The issue is whether or not she should kill Namor knowing that it will spark an endless war with his people, this doesn't make her a villain it just makes her choice hard. Does she find a way to resolve things and make peace with Namor despite everything he has done or does she get her revenge in exchange for further bloodshed?

Namor isn't really a villain either, he's an antagonist who wants to keep his people safe and only sees one way of doing it. He wants to Ally with Wakanda because he recognizes their nation's similarities and is willing to work with them to accomplish his goals while also viewing them as the only real threat to his plans. The only reason there is conflict is that Namor wants to wipe out the surface world while Wakanda is trying hard to find a way to live with the rest of the world.

[TirielWoW]

If Namor's a villain, so is Shuri. And in the end, she gives Namor what he wants. We're not really given that much of an emotional reason for her to choose this path, she just kind of does, out of nowhere. That's the bit I find frustrating. All the talk about wanting to "burn the world" and her desire for vengeance, and she just literally never acts on any of it. It's presented as her character, until it isn't. It's like if you wrote a Punisher story about how badly he wanted to kill the crime boss who killed his wife and child, and then he had the guy at his feet, gun pointed to his head, and then Frank said "y'know, vengeance is wrong. Promise me you won't kill anyone else, and you'll work with me to clean up this city legitimately." That wouldn't be satisfying, right? I find BP2 unsatisfying for the same reasons.

I don't think Namor is a villain, though. Or at least, like Killmonger, the details of his villainy and how it's coded are...complicated. Namor, Shuri, and Killmonger all have valid reasons for what they're doing. Everything Namor does is for his people, not for his own power - he literally believes that he has to do this, or his people will be killed. He has immense trauma from his childhood and things that have, ostensibly, happened in the interim, and the thing is, he's not wrong when he says the surface world is the problem. He's right, we just disagree that he should be killing all these people to solve it (not that this was really ever going to work, because they don't function well away from bodies of water). Shuri has completely valid reasons to want to wipe out Namor and his people, and the biggest and most recent one was the fact that Namor murdered her mother - the last member of her family she had left. We just disagree that she should risk the lives of her own people on a personal vengeance quest. Killmonger's critique of Wakanda was 100% correct, and his critique of the rest of the world wasn't off base - he wasn't wrong, T'challa (and the audience) just strongly disagreed with Wakanda funneling weapons to start a worldwide civil war.

In all of these cases, the individuals feel justified in their actions, and the audience can't help but feel like, "You know, they have a point." It's really difficult for me, at least, to perceive them as pure villains when I understand and even agree with why they are so angry.

What the movie failed at, for me at least, was making Shuri's emotional struggle the central focus of the story. I honestly wanted to know more about Namor's struggle, and his worries and fears, and what he was up against (that Wakanda had no way of knowing about). It felt like what they were going for was feeling terrible about the entire conflict because both sides were valid and really should just be working together and supporting each other, but they failed to focus in on that. At least for me!

[Darththeo]

I finally saw Wakanda Forever, I had put it off for personal reasons when it was in theaters.

It is rather amazing the quality that it got with what it had to overcome. I still personally wish they had chosen to recast T'Challa rather than this, but their choices work enough for me to be okay with it. I actually like what they did with Namor. Then again, he isn't really a character I care that much about, but the character worked in both the universe. And we know that what SHIELD knows/knew, isn't known by the US Government or at least is limitedly known. SHIELD was aware of Talokan or or at least appeared to be (as well as Wakanda) by Iron Man 2.

Now that we are done with Phase 4 of the MCU, it feels very much like Phase 1 for me. It is clear they are setting up things. Both the movies and series have been hit or miss for me.

[JDL49]

I never thought I ever would be in the position of defending Letitia Wright. I don't particularily care for her based on some things she's said, her character take in BP1, and my aversion to ectomorphs. But I found not one dang thing wrong with her performance in WK. Maybe it's expectations. I wasn't expecting a lot and was pleasantly surprised. Go figure.

That said for God's sake stop whining about recasting T'Challa. It was never going to happen. The cast has made it clear they would have revolted, the writers didn't want it, and Coogler didn't want it. And to top it off no actor with a shade of class would have touched the part, under these circumstances. Had Boseman quit or been fired then it might have worked but it didn't so just let it go.

[Syegfryed]

That said for God's sake stop whining about recasting T'Challa. It was never going to happen. The cast has made it clear they would have revolted, the writers didn't want it, and Coogler didn't want it. And to top it off no actor with a shade of class would have touched the part, under these circumstances. Had Boseman quit or been fired then it might have worked but it didn't so just let it go.

I would say not recasting is actually worse, and they didn't do it just to milk his death. It takes away a job from another black actor just to get some cash on top of the emotional damage, and its even worse when his family didn't want all this to be so public, hell, he even jeep it secret. Its bogus that the "cast would revolt"

I even remember him saying how Black panther, as the role, is bigger than him, they just didn't knew how to respect the actor and the character.

And fine, kill him off, but at least give him a fucking good ending, a heroic end, cause he was also a hero in real life, dying by an - un-named virus -, when you are a super-human, with technology to froze him alive until they find the cure was obnoxious