Mythic plus and keys - an outdated concept

[Sialina]

Score still exists; making your own key and inviting people with more experience is still an option. This is being exaggerated beyond belief, and there are plenty of ways to prevent it from happening. If m+ levels would be unlocked a bit like Valor upgrades right now (so you need a certain score to unlock the next level, then a higher score to unlock next level, etc.), players would still need to work on a varied dungeon pool to achieve it. Players who wouldn't be willing to do that would sport a very low score and noone sane would invite them anyway.

SO basically the system we have now, except once you unlock 20 you just spam SMBG, does that sound more or less fun to you?

Is this a problem?

Do you think it would be good or bad for raiding if you could just kill Erenog 8 times and get all your loot for the week?

[Rageonit]

SO basically the system we have now, except once you unlock 20 you just spam SMBG, does that sound more or less fun to you?

For people who want so spam SBG 20, it's more fun to be able to spam SBG 20 without having to rely on rng.
For people who want to do any other dungeon for any other reason, it's more fun to be able to do that dungeon without having to rely on rng.
Why are you judging who should have fun and how? All I'm advocating here is letting players play what they want to play. Do you honestly believe that's against fun?

[Alroxas]

i'd love a m+ solo queue. worst part of running them is getting declined all day in lfg

Which could be solved with only running with player you know.

or starting your own group just for some random to leave on the 1st boss.

So learn to be a pickier group leader when forming your own groups. Maybe communicate more and get confirmation of the goals of the run (i.e. this is for completion and if we're lucky timing it) before starting it.

if someone leaves in random queue make it drop their rating or something.

So then you'll have players who want to leave (but don't want to drop their rating or something else) so they play poorly enough that you end up leaving (and taking the punishment). That doesn't seem like a well thought plan.

[Rageonit]

Do you think it would be good or bad for raiding if you could just kill Erenog 8 times and get all your loot for the week?

Are you aware that you're arguing here against the system we have in place, because - provided you can get invites - that's exactly what you can do right now? Get into 8 SBG pugs for full vault?

[Alroxas]

Is this a problem?

Yes. It feeds into dungeon fatigue which is one of the reasons why DF Season 1 is only offering 4 of the DF dungeons in M+ rotation.

[Sialina]

Are you aware that you're arguing here against the system we have in place, because - provided you can get invites - that's exactly what you can do right now? Get into 8 SBG pugs for full vault?

But you can't, so you play the others

[MrKnubbles]

I like this take on the M+ system. You can't boost friends that are behind though. You'd have to keep doing low keys to get them up to a high point.

[prwraith]

Do you think it would be good or bad for raiding if you could just kill Erenog 8 times and get all your loot for the week?

If my goal for raiding is loot? Absolutely this would be great.

If I could become BiS by killing the first 3 bosses of an expac and never kill anything beyond that...I'd be happy as a clam

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Yes. It feeds into dungeon fatigue which is one of the reasons why DF Season 1 is only offering 4 of the DF dungeons in M+ rotation.

Different strokes I suppose. I hate mythic + and if I could only do the quick easy dungeons for my weekly that'd make it a lot more bearable.

[trapmaster]

Omg, i can't wait for future mythic+ plans such old dungeons like wailing caverns and other older dungeons turning into mythic+.

joy... Not. I hate mythic+

[Sialina]

If my goal for raiding is loot? Absolutely this would be great.

If I could become BiS by killing the first 3 bosses of an expac and never kill anything beyond that...I'd be happy as a clam

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Different strokes I suppose. I hate mythic + and if I could only do the quick easy dungeons for my weekly that'd make it a lot more bearable.

So you don't like to raid, and you don't like m+, I can understand wanting gear progression, but do you really need mythic gear at that point? how about doing normal and 11 keys? easy and quick. Clearly this content is not for you.

[Rageonit]

But you can't, so you play the others

Why can't you? I can as much as I want to.

[Swnem]

I mean... we don't need to go crazy. This is just as simple as removing the downgrade system and allowing people to downgrade the key on an npc or UI if needed.

[Okacz]

SO basically the system we have now, except once you unlock 20 you just spam SMBG, does that sound more or less fun to you?

If that's the case, it exposes the fact that Blizzard kind of failed at balancing the dungeons within the season, didn't it? It's not just SMBG, CoS and Nokhud are generally considered fine keys to do as well. Other times you land on HoV, dungeon that went through like 5 tuning passes already and is still way harder than the above. The system relies on the fact that keystone randomization is there to increase variety, right? Well, it falls on its face when said variety is nullified by people rerolling every Halls.

And yeah, it is not a nightmare to balance. It should be obvious that a dungeon with many more bosses, a LOT of trash, running, RP AND that fucking wolf bastard is going to be a less popular option compared to a rather straightforward one like SBG. Decent balance shouldn't be an unreachable goal when your entire system relies on it. And yeah, it's not gonna get much better when in the next season we'll be introduced to trash bonanza of Brackenhide.

In the world where dungeon balancing is better, there wouldn't even be an issue if there was an option to change key to whichever you want. Loot is spread across all the dungeons, some specs would always gravitate to certain ones, and would find people willing to run them for vault.

[Alroxas]

I mean... we don't need to go crazy. This is just as simple as removing the downgrade system and allowing people to downgrade the key on an npc or UI if needed.

Uh there is a NPC that downgrades keys for you? It's a Pandaren standing in front of the 3 portals in Valdrakken?

Granted the UI interface is poor as you can only lower a key by 1 level each time you talk with the NPC... so if you needed to downgrade a key by 5 levels... yup it's talking with them 5 times.

[prwraith]

So you don't like to raid, and you don't like m+, I can understand wanting gear progression, but do you really need mythic gear at that point? how about doing normal and 11 keys? easy and quick. Clearly this content is not for you.

I raid as much as I have to, to get the gear that I want. if that means clearing all mythic raids; that's what I do. I want to progress the character, where the gear comes from is irrelevant as long as it's the best.

But if I could achieve the same results by doing half the work? Absolutely I would.

[Alroxas]

If that's the case, it exposes the fact that Blizzard kind of failed at balancing the dungeons within the season, didn't it? It's not just SMBG, CoS and Nokhud are generally considered fine keys to do as well.

Nokhud? Seriously? I thought that was one of the hated ones up there with HoV.

And yeah, it's not gonna get much better when in the next season we'll be introduced to trash bonanza of Brackenhide.

Yeah brackenhide (without a disease cleanse) is going to be rough. Granted /r/competitivewow highlighted the issue - Decay Speaker mob (and it's summoned totems) are high priority kill targets (or CC). Remove them and there's no disease going out.

[Hctaz]

Why would you want End of Dungeon gear drops from those dungeons when the GV could reward better? Especially if you can completely fill out the 3 slots (by doing 8 M+ dungeons) via doing the easiest dungeons at the highest levels each week?

Haven't played DF: You're telling me you now have to do 8 M+ a week for your weekly reward now?!?!?!?

Good god....

[Alroxas]

Haven't played DF: You're telling me you now have to do 8 M+ a week for your weekly reward now?!?!?!?

Good god....

Well it's 1/4/8 M+ for 1/2/3 slots to be open in your Great Vault. It used to be 10 M+ dungeons for the 3rd slot.

[Sialina]

If that's the case, it exposes the fact that Blizzard kind of failed at balancing the dungeons within the season, didn't it? It's not just SMBG, CoS and Nokhud are generally considered fine keys to do as well. Other times you land on HoV, dungeon that went through like 5 tuning passes already and is still way harder than the above. The system relies on the fact that keystone randomization is there to increase variety, right? Well, it falls on its face when said variety is nullified by people rerolling every Halls.

And yeah, it is not a nightmare to balance. It should be obvious that a dungeon with many more bosses, a LOT of trash, running, RP AND that fucking wolf bastard is going to be a less popular option compared to a rather straightforward one like SBG. Decent balance shouldn't be an unreachable goal when your entire system relies on it. And yeah, it's not gonna get much better when in the next season we'll be introduced to trash bonanza of Brackenhide.

In the world where dungeon balancing is better, there wouldn't even be an issue if there was an option to change key to whichever you want. Loot is spread across all the dungeons, some specs would always gravitate to certain ones, and would find people willing to run them for vault.

We both know that world can't exist, every dungeon would have to have the same timer, otherwise it would be the fastest one and so forth, meta doesn't require a huge imbalance like early SMBG vs early AV, it just requires 1% or so for everyone to gravitate towards the easy solution.

Think of Dungeons as raid bosses, if you could choose whichever raidboss you would do and always get the same loot, can you imagine a world where people would do different ones except the top few players?

And once that meta settles in, very few will be willing to run the bosses/dungeons they haven't tried before. Why go wipe in Cathedral 15 when you can do Maw of souls 15 in half the time? And that kept being true even with Cathedral was so nerfed that it was easier than maw, noone knew it, so noone would run it.

[Rageonit]

Haven't played DF: You're telling me you now have to do 8 M+ a week for your weekly reward now?!?!?!?

Good god....

No? You do 1/4/8 for 1/2/3 choices, which is less than SL (1/4/10 for the same outcome).

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And once that meta settles in, very few will be willing to run the bosses/dungeons they haven't tried before. Why go wipe in Cathedral 15 when you can do Maw of souls 15 in half the time?

Because you give players various incentives to do so. End of dungeon loot; more choices in the vault; achievements unlocked for score and the like. Really, it's not rocket science.

Instead, you choose to argue for a system where the "good" players that rolled "proper" specs have easier time filling up spots for all the easy dungeons (and inflate their gear and score); while the "bad" players with lower score are left with the dungeons supposedly noone else wants to do (even them), but they have to, because they don't have any other option if the RNG wasn't nice to them; and then you call it "variety" and "fun". Somehow, in your world forcing people to do dungeons they didn't want to do in the first place is "fun".