Stop Pugging and Complaining

[Eazy]

Such a weird concept that you can say "It's a social game, don't play with strangers".
It's what makes the game social; you interact with new people.

I think that the main problem is people expecting other, random players to act like pros that will carry them.

[Azharok]

It's not as unlikely as you think. When the season changes you get a key based on the last season. So in S2 you might get a +15 Shadopan Monastery key or something if you timed an 18 the last week of season 1. No one has done that key ever.

I was also talking about doing your own key where you invite the group. How should you prepare for that +15 you never did before? Should you be flamed for inviting people to do it with you and not knowing everything?

Could always open up the dungeon journal, provides enough information to navigate the bosses. Tbf I've been playing WoW for so long now that most boss mechanics are self evident to me now. And if they aren't then that's on me for not knowing.

[chiddie]

Organized raiding is one thing. Doing m+ as a solo player is perfecly obtainable and not that hard. You can get 2k+ rating pretty much by running solo and pug your way there. Need for guild, friends or community is not THAT required tbh.

This is only if you can compensate your playing solo with tons of spare time to waste in queue and failed runs.

Getting KSM via pugging only is surely not impossible but you really need a LOT of time and patience, especially if you play a DPS class.

[sensei-]

This is only if you can compensate your playing solo with tons of spare time to waste in queue and failed runs.

Getting KSM via pugging only is surely not impossible but you really need a LOT of time and patience, especially if you play a DPS class.

I've been completely casual this expansion. I don't do world quests, or renown campaign. I haven't raided in any guild and I haven't pugged the raid even once. Nor have I entered LFR. What I have been doing is pugging M+ as a Havoc DH. I do 8-9 runs per week to max the vault. I have crafted something with the mats I get from M+. I'm now sitting at a casual ilvl of 405 and M+ Score of 2200. I don't get accepted into 17-18 keys, and I haven't asked for raiding friends to boost me into higher keys. I've done all 15's and a couple 16 so far.

TL;DR KSM is doable as pug DPS quite easily; at a one dungeon per day pace. I fully expect to pug my way to 2400 slowly but surely before the season is over.

[Rafalga]

TL;DR KSM is doable as pug DPS quite easily; at a one dungeon per day pace. I fully expect to pug my way to 2400 slowly but surely before the season is over.

Currently 2425 as warrior DPS. It is entirely possible. I could be even higher if i had a little bit more patience and ran my own keys instead. Not to mention, this is my 3rd alt which sorta become my most played char. (others are 2250 and 2050 rating). I play like 10 hours a week.

[Lathspell]

Could always open up the dungeon journal, provides enough information to navigate the bosses. Tbf I've been playing WoW for so long now that most boss mechanics are self evident to me now. And if they aren't then that's on me for not knowing.

Even after reading a guide it can be pretty hard to figure out everything trash does and what mobs you can/should pull/skip. I've just started joining keys and trying to wing it if I don't know the dungeon first hand. I do check a guide before I start. A few times it might go to shit, but at least as tank I can get into a group in a few mins always so I just ignore anyone who flames.

[Caprias]

This is only if you can compensate your playing solo with tons of spare time to waste in queue and failed runs.

Getting KSM via pugging only is surely not impossible but you really need a LOT of time and patience, especially if you play a DPS class.

Hmm yesn't.

Playing my own keys as warlock got me to 2630~ now with 2 evenings/week (a bit more at expansion start ofc.), it's just important to have the raider.io addon and understand how to filter for the right players, this way it will usually take a few more minutes to build the group but my deplete rate was rather low.

Also expecting to get invited to keys as a dd when you don't stand out/have anything to show is just dumb, and every dd would know and understand that if they ever formed groups on their own lol.
And even if you get invited you have to be careful who got invited besides you, I immediately leave groups if I see several people haven't even beaten the dungeon on time 1 level lower since I can't be arsed to take the 50:50 that this will be a shitshow.

[crusadernero]

This is only if you can compensate your playing solo with tons of spare time to waste in queue and failed runs.

Getting KSM via pugging only is surely not impossible but you really need a LOT of time and patience, especially if you play a DPS class.

Not really. I dont have infinite time to play wow and reached 2k a week ago. You only really need to complete the dungeons from +14 and you have it. I did it as a dps, a dps class far below the best ones. 90% of it was only pugging(alone with my key or joining grps).

[Azharok]

Even after reading a guide it can be pretty hard to figure out everything trash does and what mobs you can/should pull/skip. I've just started joining keys and trying to wing it if I don't know the dungeon first hand. I do check a guide before I start. A few times it might go to shit, but at least as tank I can get into a group in a few mins always so I just ignore anyone who flames.

I mean, if you just wanna wing it that's fine too. But everyone more or less assumes that people know what trash/bosses do in a 15. Especially if you're "pushing" 15s. For instance 3rd TJS, Odyn in HoV, sure you can wing those, but it'll be hard on highish Tyr to live the rune phase if you aren't positionned for it.

[klaps_05]

Weird that a guy who made about a dozen "WoW's dead, play FFXIV instead" videos after the scandal broke last expansion is now making 5 WoW videos a week.

Thats standard for all content creators - you just make videos on whats most popular. If you can come up with some controversial take so the other top streamers/youtubers react to you and give you views, even better.

[chiddie]

Hmm yesn't.

Playing my own keys as warlock got me to 2630~ now with 2 evenings/week (a bit more at expansion start ofc.), it's just important to have the raider.io addon and understand how to filter for the right players, this way it will usually take a few more minutes to build the group but my deplete rate was rather low.

Also expecting to get invited to keys as a dd when you don't stand out/have anything to show is just dumb, and every dd would know and understand that if they ever formed groups on their own lol.
And even if you get invited you have to be careful who got invited besides you, I immediately leave groups if I see several people haven't even beaten the dungeon on time 1 level lower since I can't be arsed to take the 50:50 that this will be a shitshow.

It depends on various factors:
- you class and spec
- server you are in
- time of the day you play
- length of sessions (playing 10 hours a week in 2 sessions of 5 hours is not like playing 10 hours a week in 7 session of 1 to 1,5 hours).
- luck with groups.

I didn’t say it’s impossible but surely not an easy and chill task.

I pugged all the way in BfA and SL S1 and I found it stressing beyond imagination. I am stressed enough in RL, I moved to single player games where I can play at my own pace without being forced to rely on others to progress.

[Alroxas]

It's not as unlikely as you think. When the season changes you get a key based on the last season. So in S2 you might get a +15 Shadopan Monastery key or something if you timed an 18 the last week of season 1. No one has done that key ever.

Maybe, but all the more reason to do that key at lower levels until you understand the mechanics. In this day, there are a LOT of resources that are available out there. Just to name a few:

Dungeon Journal
Wowhead/Icy-veins
Youtube/Twitch
PTR testing

A player who is even moderately interested in completing the dungeon in time for mid-level keys (around +10 or higher) should do their research.

I was also talking about doing your own key where you invite the group. How should you prepare for that +15 you never did before? Should you be flamed for inviting people to do it with you and not knowing everything?

As the key holder, you always have the option to lower your key. But beyond that, maybe communicate with your group before hand? Let them know that you don't have prior experience in this dungeon at this level and check to see if people are ok with that.

If they aren't let them leave prior to starting the run or accept that maybe you could be over your head and will need to abandon the key.

Again make sure that the group is OK with that. If they aren't 100% on board, replace and find others. Not everybody wants to spend more than the allotted time in a dungeon.

[Anzen]

It's not as unlikely as you think. When the season changes you get a key based on the last season. So in S2 you might get a +15 Shadopan Monastery key or something if you timed an 18 the last week of season 1. No one has done that key ever.

Maybe, but all the more reason to do that key at lower levels until you understand the mechanics. In this day, there are a LOT of resources that are available out there. Just to name a few:

Dungeon Journal
Wowhead/Icy-veins
Youtube/Twitch
PTR testing

A player who is even moderately interested in completing the dungeon in time for mid-level keys (around +10 or higher) should do their research.

Then after doing this, consider pugging the dungeon at a sligthly lower level to experience the mechanics first hand.

If you're adaquately geared and skilled to be doing 15's, and assuming you are joining groups with equal participants, I don't think it's fair to waddle into a dungeon without a scooby doo what's going on and just dying to everything (unless you play a demon hunter, then it's par for the course).

[Lochton]

Nothing wrong with pugging, it works fine, it is the people in the pug that makes the issues.

And lately, I'd rather pug with someone who doesn't know a damn thing than the toxic behavior that is growing from other players, or the instant entitlement of "You don't need that anyways" whispers.

[potis]

Others mentioned it, but if anyone pays attentions to the posts ever since release, you can follow the evolution of the community with the complaining.

What basically happens is people get spoilt by better players mixing in while doing things they still care about, eventually that stops and bad players have to play with bad players, and thats when the masses of complaining posts start appearing.

LFR is the easiest example for anyone to understand, look the few tiers that better players had no reason to enter..It was simply cancerous, irrelevant wipes to 0 dmg bosses.

After tiers were introduced again, people farming for 4 set, on alts etc etc, carrying the raids hard.

Do LFR before Catalyst, do LFR the last 2 weeks, let me know how that went.

The same applies to all content.

Did a +10 on my 3rd alt the last week cause its "dead" content for weeks now, if not almost 2 months, just to check cause it should be filled with "stuck in swamp of bads" players, i joined on purpose a group that did not have anyone that basically showed "Main is 2.2-2.5K" and this is an alt , so it was basically all mains, random score from 1.1-1.3K.

Everyone was so insanely fucking terrible, its insane, of course they wiped and started blaming each other swearing and left.

Was fun to see, you hear the stories but its really fun when you experience it, how all 4 are so insanely terrible, but they dont know it.

[chiddie]

Others mentioned it, but if anyone pays attentions to the posts ever since release, you can follow the evolution of the community with the complaining.

What basically happens is people get spoilt by better players mixing in while doing things they still care about, eventually that stops and bad players have to play with bad players, and thats when the masses of complaining posts start appearing.

LFR is the easiest example for anyone to understand, look the few tiers that better players had no reason to enter..It was simply cancerous, irrelevant wipes to 0 dmg bosses.

After tiers were introduced again, people farming for 4 set, on alts etc etc, carrying the raids hard.

Do LFR before Catalyst, do LFR the last 2 weeks, let me know how that went.

The same applies to all content.

Did a +10 on my 3rd alt the last week cause its "dead" content for weeks now, if not almost 2 months, just to check cause it should be filled with "stuck in swamp of bads" players, i joined on purpose a group that did not have anyone that basically showed "Main is 2.2-2.5K" and this is an alt , so it was basically all mains, random score from 1.1-1.3K.

Everyone was so insanely fucking terrible, its insane, of course they wiped and started blaming each other swearing and left.

Was fun to see, you hear the stories but its really fun when you experience it, how all 4 are so insanely terrible, but they dont know it.

They are terrible because most of them have probably zero interest in M+ but they “have” to do them in order to upgrade their gear.

[Relapses]

Thats standard for all content creators - you just make videos on whats most popular. If you can come up with some controversial take so the other top streamers/youtubers react to you and give you views, even better.

It's standard if you're an unscrupulous grifter who wants to play both sides of the court. Shit on Blizzard and WoW when it gets you clicks then praise and create WoW content with every new expansion. That's fine. Everybody has to make a living somehow. But it is hypocritical no matter how you dice it.

[Peacemoon]

I got all my dungeon portals in SL season 4 by PUGing, so it can be done. But if you play with randoms there is always an element of risk, and there isn’t much anyone can do about it other than deal with it.

These ideas people band around about banning people or giving them deserter are not going to solve anything - if I’m running a key late at night an it goes bad, and you know you’re gonna be in that dungeon for 45+ minutes, then sometimes it’s best just to quit, and people can do it at a lower level, get more gear, or learn more of the tactics. A deserter debuff is not going to stop that from happening.

So my original point is, if you want to *guarantee* you are running with nice people and everyone is on the same page, it HAS to be a premade group. You will find nice people in PUGs, but you can’t guarantee anything.

[Alroxas]

the instant entitlement of "You don't need that anyways" whispers.

Don't loot the end of dungeon chest. If you get something, it will be mailed to you after you leave the instance. A hold-over tactic from personal loot (and PLH) days of LFR. Can't get whispers if they don't know that you got an item.

[Azharok]

They are terrible because most of them have probably zero interest in M+ but they “have” to do them in order to upgrade their gear.

And yet they inflict it to one another, ironic isn't it ?