Dungeons was more fun before M+

[enigma77]

BRD was the best dungeon ever made by Blizzard. Every other dungeon ever made after BRD has been a bitter disappointment by comparison.

You can tell they put their passion into that place, which is more than can be said for any of the instantly forgettable hallways created ever since TBC.

Not every dungeon has or can be BRD, fine. But even the mega dungeons are not nearly as great as it was. They should try harder. We should get at least one BRD per expansion.

[NineSpine]

BRD was the best dungeon ever made by Blizzard. Every other dungeon ever made after BRD has been a bitter disappointment by comparison.

You can tell they put their passion into that place, which is more than can be said for any of the instantly forgettable hallways created ever since TBC.

Never making anything like BRD again has been a huge miss.

[Swnem]

I actually prefer Dungeons to be linear. While some people might like messing with routes, i think it's just a barrier for casual players, in particular tanks. I do the route planning thing. I am always trying to find better and more efficient routes for the dungeons. But, this uses up a lot of time and most players will never do this or find any enjoyment on it. It increases the burden of the tank, which is already sizeable.
I personally liked Theater of Pain a lot. The route was very easy and you just have to choose left or right.

[paxen]

Be careful when looking at the MDI as an indication of what high level play looks like. 21s may look like really high difficulty to most players, but for the players in the MDI that's at least 4-5 levels below what they usually run. MDI runs aren't about doing hard runs (that would be the great push), they're about speedrunning easy content.

[Alroxas]

I actually prefer Dungeons to be linear.

There's Linear and then there's linear. Take SL Grimrail Depot. That is a linear dungeon with ZERO variance which might be simple is kinda boring. Realistically the only thing you can do is vary the number of packs you pull to help improve time.

Even the example you used, Theater of Pain, has multiple paths you could take. After first boss (affront of challengers) who do you go next? Xav? Gorechop? Kul'tharok? Moreover, do you skip Raging Bloodhorn at the start of the instance? Or use a skip over on the Gorechop area (skipping the patrolling Rancid Gasbag)?

Even the ability to do slight variations make Theater of Pain more interesting than Grimrail Depot.

Sure simplicity might be better for casuals but for anyone serious about M+ and does enough of them to reach KSM/KSH then the more variance the dungeon has in approach makes it less stale after you run it for the Nth time.

[Algorath]

I feel dungeons was better back when there was no m+. The dungeons felt like a dungeon.

Right now, every dungeon is created with a rule set by m+. It needs to be the correct way.

Also why, we will never see Blackrock Depths

Any others who think the same, or do you like m+ more?

Classic is available at www.battle.net. Please refer to that website if you wish to reminisce on the good ol' days.

[D3athsting]

BRD was the best dungeon ever made by Blizzard. Every other dungeon ever made after BRD has been a bitter disappointment by comparison.

You can tell they put their passion into that place, which is more than can be said for any of the instantly forgettable hallways created ever since TBC.

Not every dungeon has or can be BRD, fine. But even the mega dungeons are not nearly as great as it was. They should try harder. We should get at least one BRD per expansion.

Brd was supposed to be endgame content hence all the passion and work into it (also BRS is quite huge compared to modern dungeons) then MC came and changed history

[Loveliest]

Completely agree here. Why couldn’t the content have remained. Some don’t want the endless rift slog, and would enjoy setting a toon up to run CM for unique transmog. And when completed, there would be another toon to do it all again on.

When CMS went, my interest in alts diminished. I’m not saying remove M+ as it sings to some players interests. But CMS also we’re for another type of player that gave them challenge, and enjoyment.

Small participation numbers because reward was vanity items. Very few actually did it, most bought it, because it was a one time thing. M+ is a superior iteration in these aspects. And I say this as someone who would prefer CMs to M+.

- - - Updated - - -

There's Linear and then there's linear. Take SL Grimrail Depot. That is a linear dungeon with ZERO variance which might be simple is kinda boring. Realistically the only thing you can do is vary the number of packs you pull to help improve time.

Even the example you used, Theater of Pain, has multiple paths you could take. After first boss (affront of challengers) who do you go next? Xav? Gorechop? Kul'tharok? Moreover, do you skip Raging Bloodhorn at the start of the instance? Or use a skip over on the Gorechop area (skipping the patrolling Rancid Gasbag)?

Even the ability to do slight variations make Theater of Pain more interesting than Grimrail Depot.

Sure simplicity might be better for casuals but for anyone serious about M+ and does enough of them to reach KSM/KSH then the more variance the dungeon has in approach makes it less stale after you run it for the Nth time.

Pretty sure "serious" M+ runners run them ad nauseam for pushing score and don't find little options that interesting. They design the best path for the affix and do it. Don't think someone who runs ToP 400 times thinks "Oh yeah, this is defo not stale, this week I go left instead of right".

[Alroxas]

They design the best path for the affix and do it. Don't think someone who runs ToP 400 times thinks "Oh yeah, this is defo not stale, this week I go left instead of right".

Ok maybe not the very top M+ runners but the point remains that dungeons like ToP allows for variance compared to a dungeon like Grimrail Depot.

And that's all I really want from M+ dungeons: Have enough variance in them to allow for alternative routes instead of putting players in a tied to the rail pathing.

[Coldkil]

Before M+ i would raid weekly until we cleared the content on Mythic granted i kind of talked to them but it was still the say way i view the people i pug with in seasons now as hopefully good enough people to tolerate be around until i accomplish my own personal goals. Now i was not an asshole but i sold CMode carries with my mates not my guild. I compare it to how modern society as a whole operates ( here in the UK ).

M+ is the only reason why i sub for a few weeks each season because without it i would have stopped playing WoW a long time ago and i even gave raiding a chance this season its just to much of a long form content that requires more scheduling when i just want pick up and play in every game i operate in, i want more LoL less Everquest if that makes sense. Raiding being a relic from the days of everquest minus the non instanced bosses is what hurts the game more then anything. Another thing is how the overall raiding community views those who want to learn on the job so to speak who refuse to read guides and instead take a more natural learn as you go approach ( but also the mechanics have gotten so much harder i wonder if thats even possible ) but the smaller raid size was good at the very least.

Its not 2009 anymore they are competing with every single online gaming space which has far more connectivity then WoW.

I see this only as a "you" problem. You stated it clear - you raided because you wa ted the rewards and needed people to "tolerate enough" you you would get your gear.

Imagine playing a co-op game only for yourself and your satisfaction. Actually, nothing wrong with that, main goal of every game is to have fun.

But you can see how the game evolved to accomodate this behaviour. WoW has become for the most part a solo experience, which for sure saved the game and made it going strong even after 18 years. To me personally is not an experience worth playing anymore, i have other solo games that i enjoy more and also makes me not have to deal with the usual bad apples we all know about.

[Loveliest]

I don't feel that way, but you're not alone. I see lots of people who liked CMs more than M+. The single difficulty of CM vs the infinitely scaling M+ make it vastly inferior to me just for that alone, but I think the repeatability is waaaay better on M+. I don't know anyone who touched CMs again after beating them once on each class, while tons of people run M+ every week for the entire duration of the expansion.

So yeah, disagree in my case, but you're definitely not alone. I don't really get the sentiment but I see a lot of people express it.

The draw is exactly that you don't repeat it. No matter how many fancy affixes you bring and seasons, at the heart of it it's still the same dungeon.
Some ppl can farm for hours same mobs for leather. Some ppl can do the same dungeon over and over and over. Some ppl don't feel that excited repeating the same dungeon. Especially 40 mins dungeons. Some are just not fun by sheer length.

Also, I don't have that much spare time. CMs were a one time thing you had an entire expansion to finish. M+ with seasons is a constant work every single week, changes every season. While this is the plus for a lot of ppl, I would have liked it if it was less demanding and missing a week wouldn't feel like you're missing out too much. Currently I feel like I have to do at least 8 every week and it's eating up a lot of my time.
And I get it, I have a friend who is over 3k score who pushed every week, the only game he plays and he has no job currently. This keeps him engaged in all his spare time. Without it, he would quit.
So i prefer CMs, he prefers M+.

[Swnem]

There's Linear and then there's linear. Take SL Grimrail Depot. That is a linear dungeon with ZERO variance which might be simple is kinda boring. Realistically the only thing you can do is vary the number of packs you pull to help improve time.

Even the example you used, Theater of Pain, has multiple paths you could take. After first boss (affront of challengers) who do you go next? Xav? Gorechop? Kul'tharok? Moreover, do you skip Raging Bloodhorn at the start of the instance? Or use a skip over on the Gorechop area (skipping the patrolling Rancid Gasbag)?

Even the ability to do slight variations make Theater of Pain more interesting than Grimrail Depot.

Sure simplicity might be better for casuals but for anyone serious about M+ and does enough of them to reach KSM/KSH then the more variance the dungeon has in approach makes it less stale after you run it for the Nth time.

Sure, i am ok with theater of pain level of variance.
Tbh there was some choice in grimrail too cause you could skip some mobs at the start.
But,i think it's always a bad idea to design a game for the top players. You make it too cumbersome for the average player which will lose interest and leave. The money of casuals is needed to keep the game running and giving them a good experience is important.

[jeezusisacasual]

I see this only as a "you" problem. You stated it clear - you raided because you wa ted the rewards and needed people to "tolerate enough" you you would get your gear.

Imagine playing a co-op game only for yourself and your satisfaction. Actually, nothing wrong with that, main goal of every game is to have fun.

But you can see how the game evolved to accomodate this behaviour. WoW has become for the most part a solo experience, which for sure saved the game and made it going strong even after 18 years. To me personally is not an experience worth playing anymore, i have other solo games that i enjoy more and also makes me not have to deal with the usual bad apples we all know about.

I find it easier to connect with a smaller group its kind of how our work groups are no more then 6 or 7 people at the most. This is why mythic plus is fantastic for me since it makes it more akin to a lobby based game instead of older games which frankly take to much time when you are a goal oriented player. I have been playing a ton of Diablo 2 new season and will play with again small groups of people for what i want to complete and move on since we are all tools making the situation more ideal for ourselves.

Another aspect is i myself do not chase gear and could not even tell you the name of specific tier sets or trinkets or weapons from the last few expansions / seasons nor do i care for rankings either which again hurts the long term ideals of the game since it appears the game is made for those that do. I am about to start up the entire Megaman X series after i have had my fill of Diablo 2 and shelve that game until its new season aligns with me. The game needs to be more approachable or it will continue to decline.

[Loveliest]

Another thing is how the overall raiding community views those who want to learn on the job so to speak who refuse to read guides and instead take a more natural learn as you go approach

I'll tell you how you can figure out if something you do is good or bad. You imagine "what if everyone acted the same, would the outcome be good or bad?" Let's say everyone came unprepared, no raid leader, no nothing. You waste 2hrs because you want to figure out mechanics - should you spread a debuff on 10 ppl or keep all 10 stacks so no one else gets your debuff?
Ppl don't like wipes. Nobody does. There's nothing "natural" about refusing to see a 2min guide and wipe your party over and over, to pretendent it's fun to reinvent the wheel when others already invented it.

Ppl who don't watch guides just rest on the idea that someone else (the raid leader) will tell them what to do. Being lazy and inconsiderate exists only because there are ppl who are the opposite - without them, there would be no such option. So yeah, "natural", I LOVE it when we're on wipe 70 on razsageth and some warr asks how he can avoid being pushed off the platform.

[unbound]

I feel dungeons was better back when there was no m+. The dungeons felt like a dungeon.

Right now, every dungeon is created with a rule set by m+. It needs to be the correct way.

Also why, we will never see Blackrock Depths

Any others who think the same, or do you like m+ more?

Completely agree. However, you will get little sympathy from the majority of current WoW players. They are attracted to the "Go Go Go!" attitude of shooters and have little to no interest in RPG or using tactics other than those that bypasses as much of the dungeon as quickly as possible...which is why they actually like M+.

The other part about older dungeons that most of the current player base never understood is that Blizz gave us twice as many dungeons, so it took longer to reach exhaustion. M+ fans don't care about content...they are easily enticed by achievements and getting the same gear all over again with slightly better stats.

Unfortunately, most of the players that actually prefer things like RPG and actual content have mostly moved on to multiple other games.

As for myself, I definitely miss the old days of being able to take my time in a dungeon. Having to consider aggro and cc, and having alts that played differently instead of every spec having pretty much the same functions as any other spec of that type.

However, I realize that that type of audience is in the minority anymore, and that Blizz is going to chase the easy money (the real reasons M+ exists...it fools the "Go Go Go!" crowd into thinking they have content with Blizz having to put very little effort into maintaining it).

[jeezusisacasual]

I'll tell you how you can figure out if something you do is good or bad. You imagine "what if everyone acted the same, would the outcome be good or bad?" Let's say everyone came unprepared, no raid leader, no nothing. You waste 2hrs because you want to figure out mechanics - should you spread a debuff on 10 ppl or keep all 10 stacks so no one else gets your debuff?
Ppl don't like wipes. Nobody does. There's nothing "natural" about refusing to see a 2min guide and wipe your party over and over, to pretendent it's fun to reinvent the wheel when others already invented it.

Ppl who don't watch guides just rest on the idea that someone else (the raid leader) will tell them what to do. Being lazy and inconsiderate exists only because there are ppl who are the opposite - without them, there would be no such option. So yeah, "natural", I LOVE it when we're on wipe 70 on razsageth and some warr asks how he can avoid being pushed off the platform.

Then perhaps they should make everything very simple to see and pick up on without the need for outside influence. Just because some people make a guide does not mean you make it required for all to participate plus there is a thing as information overload with a decent amount of people one would assume. What if it makes the game easier for the top 5 guilds in the world? Who cares at most since they as a number are smaller by excluding the majority of the playerbase to placate the upper tier does not help bring in more revenue either.

The game should be balanced between the 35 to 80% skill of the players not the margins top or bottom along with being more pick up and play without the need of long form content hence why i just do M+ and swap my main every season to keep a stale game fresh.

[Ielenia]

I feel dungeons was better back when there was no m+. The dungeons felt like a dungeon.

Do you really feel that way about Azjol-Nerub? Trial of the Champion? The small Scarlet Monastery dungeons? The Black Morass?

Also why, we will never see Blackrock Depths

Which in my opinion is a good thing. I don't want to spend roughly an hour in a half in a dungeon when it goes well with all bosses are killed in one, maybe two pulls.

Mythic+ are a blessing in my opinion, as it keeps dungeons relevant throughout the entire expansion, and not just a small, brief stepping stone at the beginning of the expansion and then you never see them again.

[Coldkil]

I find it easier to connect with a smaller group its kind of how our work groups are no more then 6 or 7 people at the most. This is why mythic plus is fantastic for me since it makes it more akin to a lobby based game instead of older games which frankly take to much time when you are a goal oriented player. I have been playing a ton of Diablo 2 new season and will play with again small groups of people for what i want to complete and move on since we are all tools making the situation more ideal for ourselves.

Another aspect is i myself do not chase gear and could not even tell you the name of specific tier sets or trinkets or weapons from the last few expansions / seasons nor do i care for rankings either which again hurts the long term ideals of the game since it appears the game is made for those that do. I am about to start up the entire Megaman X series after i have had my fill of Diablo 2 and shelve that game until its new season aligns with me. The game needs to be more approachable or it will continue to decline.

Oh i can fully see your point, reason why most mmos now tend to focus on smaller group content and quite a bunch on solo content. Playerbase has completely changed over the years.

I can get my mmo itch with other games while waiting for D4 basically. Which i'm going to play mostly solo when a couple friends are not online. Main point to me is that i don't have to pay a sub for those other games and that means a lot given how little i play them compared to theit actual size.

[MakeMeLaugh]

Dungeons were dead content as well before M+, so there's that.

[Shockzalot]

I enjoy the new M+ seasons with past dungeons included. They present a challenge for those of us who don't want to commit to a raid schedule due to real life commitments and they're now a viable way to gear your character up with the changes to loot and the vault. The only thing I'm not fond of is Tyrannical, M+ stats show that participation plummets on Tyrannical week. I'd be fine if it implemented a new mechanic, but the extra boss health and damage is annoying. In several weeks when it's Tyrannical, bursting and grievous participation will hit rock bottom, that's about the most cancerous combo of affixes you can get.