Bringing Back Old Models and Maps + Revamping Current Maps and Models Again

[rrayy]

Hey everyone,

I'm sure many of you have fond memories of the pre-cataclysm world of Azeroth, with its lush greenery, towering trees, and mysterious landscapes. And let's not forget about the old player models, with their unique animations and personality.

As much as I love the current version of the game, I can't help but feel a bit nostalgic for the world and models of old. That's why I propose we bring back the old models and pre-cataclysm world maps for players who want to relive the nostalgia and experience the game as it was back then. However, I also believe it's time to revamp the current maps and models as well.

I know some players may argue that the old models and maps are outdated and not up to par with the current graphics, but I believe that's what makes them special. They have a charm and character that can't be replicated in the current game. But at the same time, revamping the current models and maps would keep the game fresh and exciting.

Of course, implementing these changes may require a lot of work and resources, but I think it would be worth it to offer players the option to experience the game in a way that's meaningful to them while also updating it for the current generation.

So, what do you think? Would you like to see old models and pre-cataclysm world maps return to the game while also revamping current models and maps?

Classic is --> You don't need to louse up retail to get what you want.

[Dristereau]

It's really not worth the time or effort to recreate something that would barely be experienced when Classic has it already. Most Classic appearances can be collected and you can now even transmog grey/white items.

I'd be more in favour of them revamping/adding a phased version of zones to be caught up with current events, see Westfall either built up or burned to the ground with Defias everywhere but I feel they could do something like that with the heritage or just a max level quest line/patch content.

[Triceron]

The issue is that you are assuming I want the "classic experience" in retail. I don't. I know that classic is a different game, and that the playing experience can't carry to retail. What I want are just assets, zones, dungeons, all of that stuff. I don't care about balance, it's not even high-end content so why bother ? Heck, I would gladly play it even on my main that's hl and would therfore oneshot everything, so pretty far from the "classic experience", and yet I would be happy, because it just means more content.

I think 'it's not even high end content so why bother' hits the nail on the head.

If it's not going to really matter, if it's not actual content being made, why would Blizzard bother? Blizzard has zero incentive for doing this, and there isn't really any reason they'd go out of their way to work in assets, zones and dungeons that are gonna be left with questionable support for balance or content.

They've already put that effort into Classic. It's sort of the same inverse of people asking for modern WoW assets for Classic. Why bother?

Again, some people like me want to play it that way, so why not catter to that audience to ? It's not like it will change anything for every other people.

Because resources aren't infinite. Even re-implementing something they have assets for takes time and effort, and to Blizzard, that's better spent on new content. Considering Activision, time is money.

If it were as simple as flipping a switch that some intern could do in their break, then yeah I'd be all for it. But this is something that would need to be playtested to make sure each zone and all its assets works with all the funky modern systems and gameplay quirks that exist today. We even know for a fact that many old maps were built with holes in em, because they just weren't designed well for flying. Add in modern stuff like DH double jumps or Evokers soaring and the potential to clip through the maps... It's not even gonna be worth their QA time investment for a content-less feature.

[Zardas]

If it's not going to really matter, if it's not actual content being made, why bother? Blizzard has zero incentive for doing this, and there isn't really any demand for just assets, zones and dungeons that are gonna be left with questionable support for balance or content.

This very post is proof that there is demands. And Blizz incentive is answering to said demands.

They've already put that effort into Classic. It's sort of the same inverse of people asking for modern WoW assets for Classic. Why bother?

Because it's not bothering : as I already said, assets are here, technology is here, I can't believe that it would actually requires much work.

Again, I don't get why you would rather have A instead of A + B

[Triceron]

This very post is proof that there is demands. And Blizz incentive is answering to said demands.

That's ridiculous.

There's plenty of Doomsayers who demand they stop making WoW and put all efforts into a WoW 2. So now their incentive is answering that demand? This is not a good argument.

Again, I don't get why you would rather have A instead of A + B

Because there is always a cost.

Same with the problems that impacted Cataclysm. We got a full world revamp and new zones, and the cost was literally cutting ENTIRE raids and having fewer boss encounters in each raid. If they had spent more time and focus on the new content, it might not have suffered in lackluster end-game content. They were stretching themselves thin, and it's very likely why they haven't attempted something like that ever again (at that scale). At some point it seems they just abandoned focusing on Cata content and straight up started working on MoP stuff instead, leaving a significantly large deadzone between expansions.

But like I said, if the solution is simple, then I have problems there. I just don't believe the solution is simple at all, that it takes effort to retroactively implement, and that it's not really worth the time and effort if it's not applied to 'meaningful' content. Like even with Timewalking, that all services progression content in some way, which is why it made sense for them to re-adjust old dungeons. Would they bother making Timewalking Dungeons if it had modern progression content behind it at all?

[Mysterymask]

Because it's not bothering : as I already said, assets are here, technology is here, I can't believe that it would actually requires much work.

Again, I don't get why you would rather have A instead of A + B

I mean it would require a bit of work with very little payoff
It's not a simple "copy paste the old zone and slap Zidormi in those zones" it would effectively be "the entire vanilla continents in a fucking phase" they aren't built with Vanilla Thousand Needles with Cataclysm Tanaris right next to it in mind.
Then you got weird stuff like the fact Uldum and Hyjal just don't exist in the old world so now people would end up constantly switching which seems like a drain on the servers

Then the final nail in the coffin for this being Demon Hunters, Monks, and Evokers. 3 classes which super special movement tech that these areas DEFINTELY weren't made for. Demon Hunters especially will accidently fall through the world that wasn't meant for dash double jump and glide.

And all this for what? Tourism or another path through leveling for the 5 people in retail who want slower vanilla leveling?

[Zardas]

That's ridiculous.

There's plenty of Doomsayers who demand they stop making WoW and put all efforts into a WoW 2. So now their incentive is answering that demand? This is not a good argument.

All those doomsayers are proof that such a demand exists. And yes, Blizz has an incentive to answer those demands, but as you stated yourself, it's then depending on the cost of said implementation. In the case of wow2, it's obviously way too much compared to the crowd that would be pleased. In the case of just adding existing asssrts and system into a game that has already the technology to

Because there is always a cost.

Same with the problems that impacted Cataclysm. We got a full world revamp and new zones, and the cost was literally cutting ENTIRE raids and having fewer boss encounters in each raid. If they had spent more time and focus on the new content, it might not have suffered in lackluster end-game content. They were stretching themselves thin, and it's very likely why they haven't attempted something like that ever again (at that scale). At some point it seems they just abandoned focusing on Cata content and straight up started working on MoP stuff instead, leaving a significantly large deadzone between expansions.

I'm sure you realize how creating whole new zones and quests for Cata has nothing to do with readding already existing assets into the game.

But like I said, if the solution is simple, then I have problems there. I just don't believe the solution is simple at all, that it takes effort to retroactively implement, and that it's not really worth the time and effort if it's not applied to 'meaningful' content. Like even with Timewalking, that all services progression content in some way, which is why it made sense for them to re-adjust old dungeons. Would they bother making Timewalking Dungeons if it had modern progression content behind it at all?

There is no such thing as "meaningful content" mate, all players play for different reasons.

I mean it would require a bit of work with very little payoff
It's not a simple "copy paste the old zone and slap Zidormi in those zones" it would effectively be "the entire vanilla continents in a fucking phase" they aren't built with Vanilla Thousand Needles with Cataclysm Tanaris right next to it in mind.
Then you got weird stuff like the fact Uldum and Hyjal just don't exist in the old world so now people would end up constantly switching which seems like a drain on the servers

Then the final nail in the coffin for this being Demon Hunters, Monks, and Evokers. 3 classes which super special movement tech that these areas DEFINTELY weren't made for. Demon Hunters especially will accidently fall through the world that wasn't meant for dash double jump and glide.

And all this for what? Tourism or another path through leveling for the 5 people in retail who want slower vanilla leveling?

Easy: just created two new continents : Old Kalimdor and Old Eastern Kingdoms, both of them available only through Chromie in Orgrimmar or Stormwind. If you don't want to have to deal with Uldum and Hyjal issues, prevent flying in these continents.

If you don't want to deal with DH, Evokers, Monks etc issues, just remove all of their dangerous movement ability, or even prevent them from accessing these continent. Yes, it would screw up plenty of people, but 9 classes being able to access these zones is better than zero.

[Triceron]

All those doomsayers are proof that such a demand exists

My point is demand for anything exists (including the death of the game), it's not rational to believe Blizzard has an interest or mandate to fulfill them just because demand exists. They aren't in the business of wishfulfillment.

There is no such thing as "meaningful content" mate, all players play for different reasons.

I'm not talking about what players consider meaningful, I'm talking about what Blizzard considers meaningful.

You're not asking players to devote their time and effort to implement these assets, you're asking for Blizzard to do it. I don't see any reason for them to do so out of the pure goodness of their will to satisfy fan demands. That's not how their business works.

There is a direct proportional connection between the content they make and how that reflects in player engagement. Applying assets in modern WoW that already exist in Classic WoW is nothing more than a quality of life change that they have absolutely zero incentive to do. It's not a feature that yields any amount of meaningful engagement for their game; especially if we're talking about it being absent of any new content or not being tied to any modern progression systems.

Again, I think you already hit the nail on the head. At this point we're just circling around in disagreement.

[Zardas]

I'm not talking about what players consider meaningful, I'm talking about what Blizzard considers meaningful.

You're not asking players to devote their time and effort to implement these assets, you're asking for Blizzard to do it. I don't see any reason for them to do so out of the pure goodness of their will to satisfy fan demands. That's not how their business works.

Again, I'm not asking Blizz to implement those assets, they are already available, all I'm asking is just using the technology they already have in order to create two continents worth of content pretty much for free.

There is a direct proportional connection between the content they make and how that reflects in player engagement. Applying assets in modern WoW that already exist in Classic WoW is nothing more than a quality of life change that they have absolutely zero incentive to do. It's not a feature that yields any amount of meaningful engagement for their game; especially if we're talking about it being absent of any new content or not being tied to any modern progression systems.

This feels like the kind of answer that some people were giving in order to justify Blizzard not implementing legacy servers before the announcement of classic.

[Triceron]

Again, I'm not asking Blizz to implement those assets, they are already available, all I'm asking is just using the technology they already have in order to create two continents worth of content pretty much for free.

I don't think you actually understand what you're asking for or how it works, just saying.

There is a reason why Classic is a completely different game and not just part of modern WoW. It's a completely different infrastructure, not just in terms of balance and assets, but in how the entire system was built up. They're not compatible without putting effort into its implementation.

Implementation is time and resources which I'm talking about. 'I'm asking using the technology they already have' - it's not a technology issue, it's a manpower issue. The resources and manpower required to re-implement the content that exists is not free

This feels like the kind of answer that some people were giving in order to justify Blizzard not implementing legacy servers before the announcement of classic.

It has nothing to do with 'justify Blizzard not implementing it', it's pointing out there there's no reason this makes sense for Blizzard to do. I'm not opposing Blizzard adding a feature like this, I am pointing out how unrealistic it sounds to me. Like I said, what reason would there be for them to do this? If your answer is 'to satisfy fans like me' then that's nothing more than wishful thinking, and I remain unconvinced by this argument.

Again, nothing against your sentiment of wanting it. I merely disagree, and don't consider this to be much more than wishfulfilment.

[Mysterymask]

Again, I'm not asking Blizz to implement those assets, they are already available, all I'm asking is just using the technology they already have in order to create two continents worth of content pretty much for free.



This feels like the kind of answer that some people were giving in order to justify Blizzard not implementing legacy servers before the announcement of classic.

It's not free though there is a MILLION things they gotta add

Gonna say I think it would be fun if they could implement it but it's not a simple copy paste job that you think it is

Take those movement abilities....I mean you would effectively shut off a lot of fun things on classes just for a leveling experience this includes Grappling Hook, Lock Portals, Heroic Leap, Roll, Double Jump, Soar, etc
Speaking of leveling experience they now either have to retool it for modern leveling or rework the entire leveling experience for this because OLD WOW WASNT MADE FOR OUR CURRENT LEVELING PROCESS. You're probably gonna end up being level 40 by the time you leave Westfall

Then we have the gear they have to completely redo vanilla stats arent gonna cut it in Retail..speaking of gear
Say I walk into Shadowfang Keep or Deadmines in this old continent...which version am I getting? The new one is going to be Jarring to the audience and the old one is gonna have to be remade in ways to accommodate newer characters.

Also if we have the vanilla world does that mean we get to have old Naxx back? What about original ZG and ZA? Oh man we gonna piss off a bunch of people now that we have a way to solo Ateish! And solo they will since with Chromie time legacy loot will be enabled for it at 50!

[Zardas]

I don't think you actually understand what you're asking for or how it works, just saying.

There is a reason why Classic is a completely different game and not just part of modern WoW. It's a completely different infrastructure, not just in terms of balance and assets, but in how the entire system was built up. They're not compatible without putting effort into its implementation.

Implementation is time and resources which I'm talking about. 'I'm asking using the technology they already have' - it's not a technology issue, it's a manpower issue. The resources and manpower required to re-implement the content that exists is not free

I'm not asking them to add the balance or the system behind classic and its implementation, I'm asking them to just implements the assets, but the 3d files of the map, the pnjs, the loots and the various props. I'm pretty sure that these files are still compatible with the current engine since many of them are still present in it even today.

More like reasons against adding modern assets to Classic, which is the exact inverse of what you are asking for here. "Why bother" is that nail on the head.

I'm not sure to follow : all your answers are "No, it would costs to much to Blizz and none is interested". Which is kind of the answer that people like you were giving when people were asking Blizz about classic servers (before their announcement). Now see how that turned out...

- - - Updated - - -

Take those movement abilities....I mean you would effectively shut off a lot of fun things on classes just for a leveling experience this includes Grappling Hook, Lock Portals, Heroic Leap, Roll, Double Jump, Soar, etc

Indeed but, again, being able to travel through these zones without those abilities is still better than not being able to travel through them at all.

Speaking of leveling experience they now either have to retool it for modern leveling or rework the entire leveling experience for this because OLD WOW WASNT MADE FOR OUR CURRENT LEVELING PROCESS.

Just add a warning when choosing it stated that it's not made for those who want to level up in a modern way

You're probably gonna end up being level 40 by the time you leave Westfall

Not much different than what we have today in Chromie time.

Then we have the gear they have to completely redo vanilla stats arent gonna cut it in Retail

Either manually change each stats (granted, this would actually take time), or just randomly add to each piece the stats of another piece of another Chromie time experience of the same level (and the appropriate armor type of course).

Say I walk into Shadowfang Keep or Deadmines in this old continent...which version am I getting? The new one is going to be Jarring to the audience and the old one is gonna have to be remade in ways to accommodate newer characters.

Why would the old one have to be remade ? If you want to play the new version, just don't go to the old Eastern Kingdoms.

Also if we have the vanilla world does that mean we get to have old Naxx back? What about original ZG and ZA? Oh man we gonna piss off a bunch of people now that we have a way to solo Ateish! And solo they will since with Chromie time legacy loot will be enabled for it at 50!

I see this as an absolute win.

[Triceron]

I'm not asking them to add the balance or the system behind classic and its implementation, I'm asking them to just implements the assets, but the 3d files of the map, the pnjs, the loots and the various props. I'm pretty sure that these files are still compatible with the current engine since many of them are still present in it even today.

Which is my point. They literally have NO REASON to do this if it's just for the sake of it.

I'm not sure to follow : all your answers are "No, it would costs to much to Blizz and none is interested". Which is kind of the answer that people like you were giving when people were asking Blizz about classic servers (before their announcement). Now see how that turned out...

I didn't say 'No' to any of your points, and if that sounds like what I'm saying then you're misunderstanding my point.

Let's put this into perspective:

Blizzard is a business, first and foremost.
Their priorities are in creating a successful business that satisfies the needs of their investors.
Their metrics for success are based on player engagement on a monthly basis - MAUs.
Every piece of content in the game is tailored in service of maintaining MAUs. Everything.

Why do they make more transmogs and collectibles? To continue player engagement and maintain MAUs.
Why do they make more raiding content? See above.
Why do they make Classic WoW? See above.

So I ask, what is the purpose of adding the assets and maps and loot and props of old content into Modern WoW when it already exists in Classic? It wouldn't service MAU's at all. That content already exists in Classic WoW.

This is different from the conversation of Classic WoW prior to Classic WoW; because that didn't actually exist and it WOULD bring players back to game and IS WORTH the effort because players would remain engaged to the content they otherwise had zero access to.


So why would Blizzard have any intention of repeating content that exists in Classic WoW, and has no connections to progression content or long-term engagement systems for Modern WoW? It wouldn't make sense to me why Blizzard would put any effort into adding 'free content' that already exists in Classic WoW. I would consider that to be a waste of time and effort.

I'm not arguing against implementing it. I'm saying I don't think there is any point to it, and remain unconvinced that Blizzard would ever even consider doing something like this. In my opinion, Blizzard would regard this as a waste of their time and effort. To get something like this greenlit, some developer has to be able to convince the higher ups that this is somehow going to help the game retain player engagement. I don't see any reason why any senior developer/producer would want to greenlight adding non-progression Modern WoW content that already exists in Classic WoW.

[Zardas]

Which is my point. They literally have NO REASON to do this if it's just for the sake of it.

For the x-times, the reason is cattering to a certain audience that is asking for this. Yes, it doesn't necessarily means that it has to be implemented, it just depends on the costs of said implementation and the benefit it would offer, and that's on these two metrics that we disagree.

I didn't say 'No' to any of your points, and if that sounds like what I'm saying then you're misunderstanding my point.

Let's put this into perspective:

Blizzard is a business, first and foremost.
Their priorities are in creating a successful business that satisfies the needs of their investors.
Their metrics for success are based on player engagement on a monthly basis - MAUs.
Every piece of content in the game is tailored in service of maintaining MAUs. Everything.

Why do they make more transmogs and collectibles? To continue player engagement and maintain MAUs.
Why do they make more raiding content? See above.
Why do they make Classic WoW? See above.

So I ask, what is the purpose of adding the assets and maps and loot and props of old content into Modern WoW when it already exists in Classic? It wouldn't service MAU's at all. That content already exists in Classic WoW.

This is different from the conversation of Classic WoW prior to Classic WoW; because that didn't actually exist and it WOULD bring players back to game and IS WORTH the effort because players would remain engaged to the content they otherwise had zero access to.


So why would Blizzard have any intention of repeating content that exists in Classic WoW, and has no connections to progression content or long-term engagement systems for Modern WoW? It wouldn't make sense to me why Blizzard would put any effort into adding 'free content' that already exists in Classic WoW. I would consider that to be a waste of time and effort.

I'm not arguing against implementing it. I'm saying I don't think there is any point to it, and remain unconvinced that Blizzard would ever even consider doing something like this. In my opinion, Blizzard would regard this as a waste of their time and effort. To get something like this greenlit, some developer has to be able to convince the higher ups that this is somehow going to help the game retain player engagement. I don't see any reason why any senior developer/producer would want to greenlight adding non-progression Modern WoW content that already exists in Classic WoW.

So basically "it would cost to much to Blizz and none is interested" (exactly what I said you were claiming) ?

[Kilpi]

I think we have Classic for that. Retail should move forwards, not backwards.

Retail should go back to Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor and stay there. Keep updating the old zones and move everything forward there.

[rrayy]

This very post is proof that there is demands. And Blizz incentive is answering to said demands.



Because it's not bothering : as I already said, assets are here, technology is here, I can't believe that it would actually requires much work.

Again, I don't get why you would rather have A instead of A + B

YOu already ahve A + B. It's called classic if you want that.

THe fact you think it doesn't require much work means you don't know anything about IT and how this game is built, not to mention no concept of a budget..

[Triceron]

For the x-times, the reason is cattering to a certain audience that is asking for this. Yes, it doesn't necessarily means that it has to be implemented, it just depends on the costs of said implementation and the benefit it would offer, and that's on these two metrics that we disagree.

Yes, heavily disagree considering we're talking about a quality of life addition that does not benefit Blizzard in any way. Said content already exists.

So basically "it would cost to much to Blizz and none is interested" (exactly what I said you were claiming) ?

'Costs too much' implies this system being too expensive. I would rather say it's not worth the cost. What is the difference? Those little plastic clips that helps people use chopsticks does not cost too much, but may not be worth the cost for for people who already know how to use chopsticks. Even though they're super cheap, most restaurants don't have these because it's just easier to give people a fork instead. It's just a quality of life thing, and if the restauarant already has chopsticks and forks, those little plastic clips would be redundant and not worth the cost.

From the restaurant's POV, there is little benefit to investing in little clips just to cater to a specific group of people who want to use chopsticks but can't, when there are plenty of alternatives options already available. This is about redundancy, not expense. I recognize that there would be a demand for it, I recognize that there is a direct benefit to having them if they were available. But I don't see there being a good return of investment for Blizzard to even consider adding this quality of life option when Classic provides everything being asked for.

I want to be absolutely clear that my messaging is not because 'it costs too much'.