Developer Insights: New Upgrade System in Embers of Neltharion

[bloodmoth13]

How are people finding this difficult?
It's definitely going to easier in practice than theory. The things that sound complicated will make sense when you do it

[kamuimac]

another overly complicated system as a pretext just to remove valor

why ?

Because Ion hates valor and hates players who forced him to bring back valor into game.


garbage patch is garbage.

like i said many times - untill Ion is fired nothign in game will change for the better.

want my feedback - fire Ion , scrap this gabrage and make higher keys /raids drop more valor per compeltion/boss.

here saved you like hundreds/thousands of work hours - contact me in blizz i will tell you where to send those money .

[Randris]

How are people finding this difficult?
It's definitely going to easier in practice than theory. The things that sound complicated will make sense when you do it

Yeah I agree. It probably won't even have a huge impact to most players. It's not meant to replace regular gearing methods. They say that in the post. It seems like it's meant to aid the catch-up process for alts and/or be bad luck protection.

The most important thing to keep in mind is that everything here is optional. You don’t ever need to upgrade gear with this system. You’ll still see gear drop at the same rates. This system is meant to augment and supplement your gearing journey, not replace it.

[Ielenia]

... The text says Flightstones, but my mind keeps reading it as Flintstones, no matter how much I try. Yabba dabba doo, I guess.

[Gurbz]

Every single complaint I have seen has been from someone who either didn't even bother reading the post, or has the intelligence of a rock. Because all of them have been some variant of "Why didn't you just do it this way?!" then they proceed to describe the exact system Blizz is implementing. Or they just want Blizzard to leave things the way they are, even though this new upgrade system is more simple than what we have now, open to more gear, and you can get currency from more places.

[Aurrora]

So if I'm understanding this correctly it's a nerf to Mythic+ loot, you'll no longer be able to upgrade an item you received while rank climbing to the cap. Is that right?

[bloodmoth13]

They did. Then they renamed them to Flightstones. You're way overthinking this.

Literally everyone in this thread huh.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah I agree. It probably won't even have a huge impact to most players. It's not meant to replace regular gearing methods. They say that in the post. It seems like it's meant to aid the catch-up process for alts and/or be bad luck protection.

It's just Valor but includes raids and world quests and uses crests for blocking upgrades instead of m+ rating since it wouldn't make sense using m+ rating for gear obtained outside.

The new upgrade system doesn't give gear it just adds longevity to the gear you already have through the systems that we already use. It extends the m+ upgrades to raiding and open world.
I predict players will love it when it launches and nobody will complain that it's complex when they actually use it.
it's very simple and well thought out for the most part, it's just ugly to read an explanation, it's like trying to explain the word "the", it's far more complicated doing that then actually using the word itself.

[Sensa1]

The only thing that's low IQ here is this take. You apparently failed to read the very first paragraph the devs wrote: This system is an augmentation to the already-robust gear acquisition system and is entirely optional.

You amaze me...in your initial post on the subject you said, and I quote, "Yabba-dabba-oh-boy-another-fuggin'-system!". Then, when people rightly point out that just like all the other systems on top of systems that Blizzard has introduced over the last several expansions this one is also designed to drive MAU's, the whole point of these systems - to make you play longer - you go ape shit.

Whether you think its a good idea or a bad idea, overly complex or rather straightforward, good for the game or bad for it, or optional (and many will not see it that way as its a means of gearing up and the developers know that) its another lipstick on a pig system meant to drive MAU's.

[Relapses]

you amaze me...in your initial post on the subject you said, and i quote, "yabba-dabba-oh-boy-another-fuggin'-system!". Then, when people rightly point out that just like all the other systems on top of systems that blizzard has introduced over the last several expansions this one is also designed to drive mau's, the whole point of these systems - to make you play longer - you go ape shit.

Whether you think its a good idea or a bad idea, overly complex or rather straightforward, good for the game or bad for it, or optional (and many will not see it that way as its a means of gearing up and the developers know that) its another lipstick on a pig system meant to drive mau's.

For fuck's sake dude. It's a fucking video game with a subscription service. Saying that something is "designed to drive MAUs" is like saying "cars are designed to create pollution." You haven't ascended to a higher plane of existence by correlating the existence of profit motivation for a billion dollar publicly traded, multinational company with thousands of employees. It's stating the obvious, which is why my first post was... a fucking joke.

The thing that irks me about having this kind of opinion is that instead of articulating any actual fucking problems with the system it's one which craves validation. Players no longer want to say, "this is a bad system and here's why," they just want happy fun time updoots from internet strangers for sharing the same bitter, cynical outlook. That's why we keep getting systems like this: Because this terrible, ceaselessly unhappy and terminally dissatisfied community is too busy circlejerking ourselves into the motherfucking fifth dimension to actually provide actionable feedback.

[NineSpine]

Anybody else instinctively reading Flintstones instead of Flightstones?

Yabba-dabba-oh-boy-another-fuggin'-system!

Sooooo cmon, let's get the obvious out of the way:

This is nearly identical to the systems I have proposed over and over and over again, and you have told me are terrible, horrible, no good, and Blizzard would never do it because it would destroy the game.

Now, I've waited a very long time for this, so please make it worthwhile, because I am incredibly excited to see if you rationalize loving it now that Blizzard is doing it.

[Relapses]

Sooooo cmon, let's get the obvious out of the way:

This is nearly identical to the systems I have proposed over and over and over again, and you have told me are terrible, horrible, no good, and Blizzard would never do it because it would destroy the game.

Now, I've waited a very long time for this, so please make it worthwhile, because I am incredibly excited to see how you rationalize loving it now that Blizzard is doing it.

My honest opinion of the system is cautious optimism. I don't like some parts of it. I really don't like how it ties into the crafting system but I kind of also don't really like DF's crafting system. But at the end of the day, I haven't seen enough of the system to form a concrete opinion on it as a whole. My first impression is that it's better for people who play very infrequently and much worse for those who enjoy no-lifing. That's the better direction to go, though I will admittedly miss some of the degenerate idiosyncrasies of the current system (ie, farming +2s for a rare trinket then using the easy VP from the farm to max upgrade the item).

[ChairmanKaga]

What is your reading comprehension level, "rock"?

Far too many of the forum dwellers here and on the official forums are functionally illiterate.

[lordjust]

This is just better than valor...

I don't think it's better than valor. First you have different itemlevel ranges for items to upgrade and 4 different types of crests. Because they want to also use them for crafted items, they will probably be separate items in your bags. With the different tracks for upgrades the m+ piece from a lower key can't be upgraded all the way up to +12 like right now but only to +5 or +7 and then you need a new piece from the vault or a higher key that is created in another track.

Why create a convoluted system like this if they just could've used valor. They already had the emissary quest in shadowlands give you valor and could expand this to world quests, dungeons and raids and then make items from different content just have different levels of maximum upgradelevel. Something from the open world upgrades to +4, from LFR to +8 and so on but an LFR item starts at 4/8. That way you have just 1 currency and keep items from m+ scale from LFR all the way up to mythic. The only downside would be that you don't need to keep doing harder content to be able to upgrade items because there isn't another currency to get from harder content. They could try to solve that with increased upgrade costs for higher ranks and higher valor drops on harder content or some sort of rating or achievement.

[Tojara]

They want you to be able to get currency from everything, not just spamming M+. Crests are just infusions from S1 that have a dual purpose of allowing you to upgrade your gear further. Additionally you can upgrade gear account wide up to the highest iLvL slot for half price. You still have to obtain the crests to unlock the iLvL threshold (which is good), but this just allows you to gear up alts way quicker.

It really isn't all that convoluted at all. All gear can be upgraded now and pretty much every activity can obtain the currency required for upgrades. We already have infusions taking up space in our bags, so I fail to see how the replacement valor taking up bag makes the system more complicated/convoluted.

Crests and their levels are just differently named infusions, which was going to come anyway with S2. Valor is just a different name lol. Crests are still going to be obtained from doing difficult content, whether that be PvP, raids, M+ and possibly some other way they introduce in S2.

The biggest take away from this is that 'valor' isn't capped anymore, is obtainable from everywhere, and it allows different itemization from WQ rewards to exist instead of farming for very specific dungeons for a certain item. Cache loot and crafted items are likely to still be better than max 'valor' upgrades, as it should be, but those random WQ items and trinkets that drop might actually see play now. Especially when they roll with sockets or tertiary stats and have stats you actually care about.

[bloodmoth13]

I don't think it's better than valor. First you have different itemlevel ranges for items to upgrade and 4 different types of crests. Because they want to also use them for crafted items, they will probably be separate items in your bags. With the different tracks for upgrades the m+ piece from a lower key can't be upgraded all the way up to +12 like right now but only to +5 or +7 and then you need a new piece from the vault or a higher key that is created in another track.

Why create a convoluted system like this if they just could've used valor. They already had the emissary quest in shadowlands give you valor and could expand this to world quests, dungeons and raids and then make items from different content just have different levels of maximum upgradelevel. Something from the open world upgrades to +4, from LFR to +8 and so on but an LFR item starts at 4/8. That way you have just 1 currency and keep items from m+ scale from LFR all the way up to mythic. The only downside would be that you don't need to keep doing harder content to be able to upgrade items because there isn't another currency to get from harder content. They could try to solve that with increased upgrade costs for higher ranks and higher valor drops on harder content or some sort of rating or achievement.

The reason they did this was to keep raid tiers separate. Its not really a bad choice imo, the only real issue i can see is that there will be no incentive for higher tier players to run lower keys like they might now to sharpshoot specific items, which helps newer players gear up faster (i think its a good thing for the game overall)

People are acting like its arbitrary but it was designed to replace the keystone rating as a gate and its probably going to be far more natural for that.
What i would like is the ability to use crests to increase the tier of an item, so as long as you have spare crests and have done harder content you can boost up an old item.

[Dracullus]

How are people finding this difficult?
It's definitely going to easier in practice than theory. The things that sound complicated will make sense when you do it

It's very simple. They don't read, see wall of text and start to panic.

[Caprias]

Woah what a brutal 7 minute read, wouldn't be possible without my phd.

System looks good, way more versatile than valor.

[RahEndymion]

Hmm. Whether or not this is an amazing change or awful will be dictated by the numbers really.

I've had the most satisfaction in the game in the last 3 months than I've had since mid legion. Part of this was tied to valor upgrades, the incentivization to run lower keys with friends, pushing rating beyond 2k even though the 2.5k rewards aren't great, just to get the 2.4k upgrade threshold and then pushing onto 3k because it was fun. I do worry that this experience is now under threat.

With the difficulty impacting the valor rewards and there being no real reason to hold onto loot from low keys now, I don't really see any benefit in running lower keys. While I do find (in current gear) the 18-22 bracket a lot more fun, it was definitely noticeable when valor cap was removed and it became significantly easier to fill groups at lower levels on alts. There will now be very little incentive for most players to run these keys. The idea of having upgradable loot from multiple sources is great but it seems somewhat disingenuous. Currently, if I want a specific trinket, I run the dungeon it drops from at a reasonable difficulty so that the time spent farming for valor to upgrade and the time spent farming for drops balances out. I run a higher key, it drops higher and I need less valor. I run a lower key, it drops lower I need more valor. It's an easy value proposition. There is RNG involved, but that can be mitigated by running lower keys faster as a lower risk alternative.

The reason the idea of multiple upgradable loot sources is disingenuous is because of the cap on upgrades. Sure, I can now get currency doing lots of things, but I can only get the items from the same places. The items I get from WQ are not going to be Champion/Hero pieces. Being able to get upgradable item drops from them is irrelevant to the majority of players if the upgrade is capped lower than m0/LFR. So, in the end, you're left with a system where the 'valor' alternative, Flightstones, are calculated based on the difficulty you run. Crests are also dictated by the difficulty you run. As is the overall upgradability of the item you loot. So, this is arguably less deterministic. You now have to spend more time doing higher difficulty and much longer m+ runs to even get to roll on the item you want. This is a flat out nerf to the gearing potential of m+ which is just not remotely necessary. The current system was working very well. Difficulty dictates drop, rating increase dictates valor, rating dictates upgrade potential. Simple.

On the other hand, this is clearly a better way to incentivize raiding and I am optimistic about that. S1 doesn't offer much incentive to raid other than 'story' which, in S1, isn't a huge drive and can be achieved in Normal. It will definitely feel more worthwhile to pug HC now for sure.

The thing is, this shouldn't have come at the expense of m+ gearing gameplay loop.

If they reiterate that WQ drops and any other gear sources will scale with your ilvl, fine. That's legit just free epics but it's better than running the same bloody +16 for 45 mins each go on repeat for weeks.

This also isn't about locking other players who don't want to do M+ out of loot upgrades. I don't care where other peoples epics come from, I care what I have to do to get the items I need to efficiently play the content I find engaging. They could quite easily implement the catch up to max ilvl requirement for alts in the current system. They could also have made a raid specific / wq specific valor system. They could have kept valor, rolled it out, added crests that drop from raid bosses so that m+ and wq players can't run LFR and end up in HC raid gear. They could even have included WQ/Open World crests and kept valor exactly how it is.

It feels good to have several options for gearing. It feels like you're actually playing different content when you're crafting versus upgrading m+ pieces. UI/Currency/Not Currency Currency being bloated is it's own problem that can be fixed by utilizing the already existing currency tab.

Bit of a wall of text here but this system reads to me that they may be burning the house down to clean the carpet.

[kranur]

So if I'm understanding this correctly it's a nerf to Mythic+ loot, you'll no longer be able to upgrade an item you received while rank climbing to the cap. Is that right?

Not really, M+ is already below what you can get from the last mythc raid bosses.

OT: It did sound more complicated in the beginning but once you look at the table and read that each item will have 1 track based on it's initial ilvl is easy to understand. Not really less convoluted than it is today due to still having an array of currencies ... would have preferred a single currency that ramps up a lot in cost as you upgrade it and the amount you get also ramps up with difficulty of the content you run (can still keep the tracks) ... like really what's the worst that can happen ... someone farms world content and low difficulty raids/M+ like a madman and gets to upgrade 1-2 items to mythic or near mythic quality ... can't have that I guess

[Nymrohd]

another overly complicated system as a pretext just to remove valor

why ?

Because Ion hates valor and hates players who forced him to bring back valor into game.


garbage patch is garbage.

like i said many times - untill Ion is fired nothign in game will change for the better.

want my feedback - fire Ion , scrap this gabrage and make higher keys /raids drop more valor per compeltion/boss.

here saved you like hundreds/thousands of work hours - contact me in blizz i will tell you where to send those money .

??? This is Valor for EVERYONE.