Bard popularity in the eyes of the general audience

[Ielenia]

Really? My DK wears their starter gear via transmog since it’s one of the few examples of a plate set that utilizes robes.

But the Lich King doesn't wear robes. In fact, he is actually heavily armored.

Again, you continuously ignore the fact that Blizzard linked Chen and the Pandaren Brewmaster to martial arts years before MoP was released.

I'm not ignoring anything because what you claim doesn't exist.

Heck, look at the Pandaren Monk pet that was released during WotLK. It was linked to Chen and it did martial arts in its idle animations.

Which lacks anything even remotely related to the WC3 unit aside from being pandaren. Not a single ability related to the WC3 unit.

So you’re seriously going to argue that a “brewmaster” can only brew alcohol?

Look at the WC3 pandaren unit's voice lines. Look at the whole of Pandaria's lore. The pandarens are as into alcoholic drinks as dwarves are. How many times did you see anything close to that size regarding tea in the Pandaria's culture?

How is that the case when Evokers have spells called Life-Binder and can heal people with their fiery breath and fire magic just like Alexstraza?

Having one ability named after a NPC is meaningless. Here's my question: can you play the way Alexstrasza or Wrathion play in HotS (the only place where they actually have anything resembling gameplay)? No, you can't. Therefore you can't say that the class' gameplay reminds us of those NPCs.

It’s not that we don’t want to, it’s that there isn’t any lore to base an expansion on that would support this class.

You're wrong. You're just plain wrong. There's plenty of lore and characters that could be assembled together to come up with a cohesive theme.

The fact that you have never brought forth any examples crystallizes that point.

If that's your claim, I'm going to say you're either lying, or you don't read what people write. Because I have, countless times, in our past conversations regarding the bard class.

Again, the lore for Dracthyr Evokers

Did not exist whatsoever until the Dragonflight expansion came along. That's the point.

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While you are right, Blizzard has been known to lean heavily on pop culture, with some clever and some very ham-handed references littered throughout the game (see here).
In my continuation, I mention only if that movie becomes a massive hit and really pops with the audience and spawns sequels and such would it *maybe* be worth doing something as a reference, but an entire class is too much (unless the class was already in the cards for the future).
In this case, they still don't have to do anything, but they also didn't have to introduce Harrison Jones or the many other references in the game.

Yeah, but the D&D movie will be, at best, nothing but a single blip in pop culture radar. It's honestly just small potatoes to the nerd culture compared to D&D itself.

[Kokolums]

Just curious would you say all the Hunter/ranger classes in DND video games like say pathfinder aren’t actually hunters because said games don’t have an ammo system?

i cant speak for other games.

[Ielenia]

None of those guys are heroes.

Alexstrasza isn't a hero, either. You can make the argument that Wrathion may be a hero, but not Alexstrasza.

[baskev]

[IMG]snip

For me a bard is a annoying singing dude, singing a song about a coin and a witcher :P

[Ielenia]

He’s definitely a WoW hero, but the Evoker class is more tied to mechanically Alexstraza than Wrathion.

The class literally plays zero like Alexstrasza from HotS.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

i cant speak for other games.

I mean wow doesn’t have bards so don’t you kinda have to to compare hunters to any kind of bard?

[bloodmoth13]

Yea...redundancy is an issue. That's why my rewrite of lore encompasses a hard look at class structures...The power structure of shaman and druid is a particularly big change. Shaman should have a talent tree regarding ancestors and spirits. Incarnations and archetypes will figure heavily, leaning on racial culture. (Such things should always differ by race)

I have ideas for restructuring of classes too that cover too much for this thread since it's likely to detail things, but I will say I don't think 'shaman' should be a class since it's too much of a cultural thing for the horde. In practice they are far more elementalists, and what shamans actually offer (communing with ancestors, creating fetishes, totems and trinkets etc) is more of a profession thing. The idea that horde elementalists get their power through shamanist is awesome but it would be just as cool to see how other races would have their own way of using elemental magic like goblins do by bargaining and making contracts.

Classes should imo be as generic as possible to be applicable to all races, shamanism is very much a cultural thing rather than a gameplay thing, a genuine shaman class could be awesome but it's far too niche. a bit like how priestess of elune magic was folded into balance druid and then given to all druid races when it was strictly just a night elf thing, balance druids should have been more generic plant based mages imo and night elf culture is diminished for it.

[Teriz]

That's nonsense. Music is music, regardless of what instruments being played or what style of music is used. Different cultures in WoW already display a wide variety of music-based buffs in the form of instruments and music.

Kodoriders aren't using heavy metal to boost the damage of nearby Horde troops. They beat wardrums. Same can be done with Leatherworking Drums to initiate a lesser form of Bloodlust. There's no reason to adhere to a contemporary music style, considering the Bard class isn't built around any single concept in the game.

Again, there's zero consistency between this;



And this;



If you want to make a class based on the Kodorider, you're talking about a COMPLETELY different class concept. Also you'd be hard pressed to find an alliance equivalent.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Again, there's zero consistency between this;

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...9XSYc29OQmnqJr

And this;

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/fc/ee/4d/f...34b4a88a7b7.jp

If you want to make a class based on the Kodorider, you're talking about a COMPLETELY different class concept. Also you'd be hard pressed to find an alliance equivalent.

Isn’t he also the drummer in wow meaning they would match up on that jsut you know with a Kodo added?

[Teriz]

Alexstrasza isn't a hero, either. You can make the argument that Wrathion may be a hero, but not Alexstrasza.

She's on the cover of an expansion, and she was in heroes of the storm. She's definitely a hero character.

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But the Lich King doesn't wear robes. In fact, he is actually heavily armored.

The outfit is based on the Lich King's thematic. You even pointed that out yourself.

I'm not ignoring anything because what you claim doesn't exist.


Which lacks anything even remotely related to the WC3 unit aside from being pandaren. Not a single ability related to the WC3 unit.

So you're saying that the Pandaren Monk has zero ties to Chen when Chen is supposedly the one who sends the pet to you?

Look at the WC3 pandaren unit's voice lines. Look at the whole of Pandaria's lore. The pandarens are as into alcoholic drinks as dwarves are. How many times did you see anything close to that size regarding tea in the Pandaria's culture?

A brewmaster (also known as brewmeister or brewmaiden) is known for making drinks and concoctions which give the brewmaster and others special abilities.

Alcohol isn't mentioned anywhere in that description.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Brewmaster

Having one ability named after a NPC is meaningless. Here's my question: can you play the way Alexstrasza or Wrathion play in HotS (the only place where they actually have anything resembling gameplay)?

I wasn't aware that Wrathion was in HotS, but yeah, you can play similarly to Alexstraza in HotS. Only thing you can't do is turn into a building-size dragon for obvious reasons.

You're wrong. You're just plain wrong. There's plenty of lore and characters that could be assembled together to come up with a cohesive theme.

Name them.

If that's your claim, I'm going to say you're either lying, or you don't read what people write. Because I have, countless times, in our past conversations regarding the bard class.

Then name the expansion in which a Bard could be introduced and would thematically fit.

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Isn’t he also the drummer in wow meaning they would match up on that jsut you know with a Kodo added?

Ooooo That's a good point. I stand corrected. However, what would be a good alliance equivalent?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Ooooo That's a good point. I stand corrected. However, what would be a good alliance equivalent?

Don’t really think there would be one drums aren’t a big thing in the alliance nor are mounted players as far as I can remember.

[Triceron]

I have no idea why you keep coming back to this example as if it's some sort of gotcha. Again (probably for the 100th time now), Mistweavers have roots in the Brewmaster's themes of Pandaren martial arts and brewing. It doesn't need to be alcohol, it just needs to be brewing. The lore of the Brewmaster is that they're masters of crafting drinks, not just alcoholic beverages.

Chen clearly does not use any healing or tea brewing themes. You're explaining a completely different method of using brews that was never used by Chen, and this simply shows how varied the theme can be.

And if we apply this to music as a theme, then it doesn't have to stick with contemporary music at all. "Music" is a broad category to consider, just like 'Brewing' is.

Again, there's zero consistency between this;

By zero you mean Chief Thunder-skins in ETC band, right?

However, what would be a good alliance equivalent?

They even made a commercial with a similar horn

[Teriz]

Don’t really think there would be one drums aren’t a big thing in the alliance nor are mounted players as far as I can remember.

Whelp, there goes that idea.

Also when I looked more into it, it’d be hard to share abilities.

[Shadowferal]

I have ideas for restructuring of classes too that cover too much for this thread since it's likely to detail things, but I will say I don't think 'shaman' should be a class since it's too much of a cultural thing for the horde. In practice they are far more elementalists, and what shamans actually offer (communing with ancestors, creating fetishes, totems and trinkets etc) is more of a profession thing.

I've "elementalism" as different from "elemental spirits." Earth, air, fire, water as opposed to spirits of storm, the seasons, and the mountains...
Elementalism is a shifty spec, but will fold into the mage class to me.
Elemental spirits will change with race, and be more cultural related.

The idea that horde elementalists get their power through shamanist is awesome but it would be just as cool to see how other races would have their own way of using elemental magic like goblins do by bargaining and making contracts.

Goblins don't make the grade to me when it comes to shamanism. Oh, I'll write that the occasional goblin thinks he or she is getting elemental magic, but the only beings that make deals and bargains are demonic in nature. (Warlocks from other races will eventually reveal that...the whole spiel is an event in my timeline that will eventually be written out)

Classes should imo be as generic as possible to be applicable to all races, shamanism is very much a cultural thing rather than a gameplay thing, a genuine shaman class could be awesome but it's far too niche. a bit like how priestess of elune magic was folded into balance druid and then given to all druid races when it was strictly just a night elf thing, balance druids should have been more generic plant based mages imo and night elf culture is diminished for it.

Fully disagree. Despite what "exceptions" I have, some race/class combos will be verboten.

[Teriz]

Chen clearly does not use any healing or tea brewing themes. You're explaining a completely different method of using brews that was never used by Chen, and this simply shows how varied the theme can be.

Why would a brewmaster not be able to brew teas?

Also;

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Brewing:_Mana_Tea

And if we apply this to music as a theme, then it doesn't have to stick with contemporary music at all. "Music" is a broad category to consider, just like 'Brewing' is.

Martial Arts is also a broad category, but instead of having the monk class use human, Orc, gnome, and elven martial arts, they stuck with only Pandaren martial arts.

That should tell you something.

[Stormxraven]

Seems to me that Bards really arent that popular but thats its just the same few people a very vocal minority that keep flogging that dead horse.

[Shadowferal]

Last year's poll

[Ielenia]

Nope, you can't roleplay a paladin by giving warrior yellow armour because warriors don't use magic.

And priests don't wear armor heavier than cloth, don't wield swords, and don't wield bows or crossbows.

It's not a matter of pretending and this is why classes should have broad interpretations, the character you roleplay as is who your character is, classes need to cover basics to allow a wide variety, for example I could make an orc mage and roleplay as a frostwolf shaman that focuses on frost and fire, doesn't matter that in lore my character is a mage and uses arcane my character is a shaman, the class is there to facilitate my character design.

Right. So is this a matter of pretending, or is this not a matter of pretending? Because you're sending mixed signals, here.

Perhaps I'm not engaging in honest discussion here because I'm finding it hard to understand what a bard is, I figured it would be someone who plays an instrument to conjure magic, which my suggestion would solve perfectly effectively creating as many bard specs as there are caster classes.

Bards are jack-of-all-trades. They have the ability to use song and music to cast spells, yes, and through that they can both heal allies and damage foes, as well as buffing allies, and debuffing foes. On top of that, bards are also skilled with weapons, though not to the level a warrior is. They can also be sneaky, though not to the level a rogue is. There's a lot that can be done for the bard in terms of a class concept with three specs.

You are saying now they use bows and swords but the only thing unique about them imo is playing music that is all bards do,

That may be the only "unique" thing they do, but that by way means that's the only think they can do. Rogues' unique thing is stealth, but stealth isn't all they do.

I can't help but feel rogue does the dashing scoundrel justice and that would cover a bard unless you are in melee combat and whip a musical instrument out to jam a lute solo for whatever reason, that sounds like awfully disruptive gameplay since you would want long cast times to justify a music playing animation.

Which is why a bard would also have a spellcasting spec to take care of that, and the hypothetical melee spec would mostly have instant-cast spells for offensive abilities.

You can't fight with bows/swords and musical instruments at the same time

Which is why separate specs exist in WoW. On top of that, I doubt Blizzard would add "musical instrument" as an actual weapon type, and instead would likely just leave the musical instruments as special casting animations, just like the paladin casts spells by flipping pages on a libram. Or make off-hand weapons that look like instruments.

What I could imagine is a bard profession where you craft instruments

The bard concept does not work as a crafting profession. That's like saying paladins or warriors could be crafting professions.

[Nightshade711]

Inb4 Bard is a tinker spec because of the electric guitars.

[Shadowferal]

Inb4 Bard is a tinker spec because of the electric guitars.

...now there's an idea.