Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Doctor Amadeus]

Now you're just acting ignorant.

Bipartisan federal assault weapon ban -- 1994 - 2004

PLCAA passed -- July 2005

Weapons manufactured in the US by year: https://www.statista.com/statistics/...red-in-the-us/

Look at 2005 and beyond in general.

Look at the big jumps that occur in election years.

Look at general violent crime / gun related statics by year and how things changed prior to 2004 and then post 2004, especially in relation to mass shootings

IE use your fucking brain

Correlation does not imply causation but if it is coincidence, this is all the fucking planets just happening to align at the perfect moment.

I’m so sincerely asking because I don’t know everything. I wasn’t sure where you were looking.

I do see what you’re saying now. I’m still not sure if the connection between gun manufacturing making more guns equal people buying more of them. If I’m understanding your meaning now.

My question is it’s true and gun sales and death went up. How?

Guns can’t be advertised through most media. The only way you know about more guns is if you participate in the culture in one way or another.

I will agree about elections causing a spike because if talks of gun legislation. But I don’t think that’s how we got here.

You asked me to look at your research and I have because you asked me and I’m interested in what you’re saying with an open mind.

I can agree with you on political elections.

But as for the rest I’m not with you. Yet I’ll keep an open mind but the mere fact a product exists doesn’t be necessary create a demand. Unless I’m missing something about what you’re saying.

I see what you pointed out. I’m also accessing my memory on some of the other details too.

I think the crime bill in the 90’s might have had an impact also.

Because remember as I said as of today and as far back as I’ve looked 43.000 gun deaths a year 54% by suicide.

But 43% is by murder roughly 19,000. However that number has climbed recently so.

My point is what you’re saying might have merit too I’ll admit I haven’t dug into the breakdown down further than how many death per year were from mass shootings including injuries. The highest I get is 93.

Most murders and gun deaths aren’t or weren’t happening per capita in places like Florida.

I in error compared it to California which I felt was marginal. However I was wrong about more recent data and Texas deaths have climbed.

But the vast majority of murders are not. My conclusion based on where it’s happening most and Tennessee is one of them along with Mississippi and Alabama. Is poverty and lack of access and education. I’m speaking of the majority of gun deaths through murder.

Mass shootings on the other hand mostly take places in like Texas, New York, California at least that’s where most of the biggest get reported.

Based on the above I don’t connect the deaths from murder to guns when it comes to to murders and even less murders happen from school shootings or mass shootings.


Deaths by gun accidents it around 3% along with other.

Again I’m not adding that up to guns.

- - - Updated - - -

Just to clarify, I'm pro gun. I own 3 shotguns, a hunting rifle, and an antique black gunpowder pistol (if you can even count that). I don't own any handguns or assault rifles. I'm also for gun reform. As I mentioned before, this shit ain't working in this country and no one seems to want to compromise an inch. It would be one thing to try something and fail and revise strategy based on what works and what doesn't, but no one is even willing to begin the process. They throw their hands in the air and say "well, nothing can be done because of liver cancer and car crashes." It's impossible to get even a single person to admit that background checks for the legally insane would be beneficial. So yeah, don't expect improvement in this lifetime if we can't even expect genuine discussion.

We can I’ve given my reasons. Why is your conclusion we need more guns laws?

Why can’t we use our resources to find the people doing this research it since it not all gun owners which you should understand.

Why is that such a sacrifice bit worthy of taking but asking for people’s constitutional rights. With no proof given.

I know some people’s argument seems to because we can. Based on what a fraction do and are responsible for.

Guns aren’t killing people. People are killing people. Let’s address the people

[Grinning Serpent]

I mean, it didn't REALLY need to be said, as we know the gun camp gives zero fucks about the welfare of children. It's just nice to see one of them be honest about it.

Remember how I asked if you were interested in having an actual adult discussion or not? You said you weren't and have been pitching a temper tantrum since then.

Can you please return to Reddit or whatever morass you crawled out of?

[jonnysensible]

Remember how I asked if you were interested in having an actual adult discussion or not? You said you weren't and have been pitching a temper tantrum since then.

Can you please return to Reddit or whatever morass you crawled out of?

the non gun owner who lectures gabriel the gun owner on guns because they watched a youtube video, the i dont care about 3 kids who were shot to death because what about 700000 heart disease or cars.

How can anyone have a mature discussion with a edgy 14 year old?

[fwc577]

I’m so sincerely asking because I don’t know everything. I wasn’t sure where you were looking.

I do see what you’re saying now. I’m still not sure if the connection between gun manufacturing making more guns equal people buying more of them. If I’m understanding your meaning now.

My question is it’s true and gun sales and death went up. How?

Guns can’t be advertised through most media. The only way you know about more guns is if you participate in the culture in one way or another.

If they "can't be advertised through most media" then why do these companies even have marketing departments?

Their job is to aggressively market a product. Even if it isn't allowed through "most media" it still gets advertised.

https://www.france24.com/en/americas...o-young-adults

[Nastard]

If they "can't be advertised through most media" then why do these companies even have marketing departments?

Their job is to aggressively market a product. Even if it isn't allowed through "most media" it still gets advertised.

School shooters advertise for them. No, seriously. Every time there's a school shooting, gun and ammunition sales increase, as does gunmaker stock trading. Glean from that what you may. My assumption is there's recognition that gun legislation is possible so they fearfully hoard while they can. It's hard to imagine anyone could genuinely wonder how guns could still be profitable despite advertisement restriction, particularly with our gun-obsessed fearmongering culture. Yeah, and cigarettes shouldn't sell either with their current ad limits yet somehow people keep dying of second-hand smoke. In fact, second-hand smoke death numbers and firearm death numbers are not that dissimilar. I suppose that's discussion for another time (or maybe the comparison is fitting here?)

[Darththeo]

Just to clarify, I'm pro gun. I own 3 shotguns, a hunting rifle, and an antique black gunpowder pistol (if you can even count that). I don't own any handguns or assault rifles. I'm also for gun reform. As I mentioned before, this shit ain't working in this country and no one seems to want to compromise an inch. It would be one thing to try something and fail and revise strategy based on what works and what doesn't, but no one is even willing to begin the process. They throw their hands in the air and say "well, nothing can be done because of liver cancer and car crashes." It's impossible to get even a single person to admit that background checks for the legally insane would be beneficial. So yeah, don't expect improvement in this lifetime if we can't even expect genuine discussion.

The two sides on guns are: common sense gun control vs absolutely no infringement and laws need to be rolled back.

You can't compromised when one side isn't even willing to discuss the issue.

The worse part is that the "No infringement" crowd is a MINORITY of a minority. Most Americans do not own firearms and most who do own firearms support things like mandatory background checks and wait periods. We are held hostage in the discussion by a small group of people who refuses to believe they aren't speaking for most Americans.

[Edge-]

https://www.thedailybeast.com/gop-re...l-our-daughter

“Three precious little kids lost their lives, and I believe three adults, I believe, and the shooter of course, lost their life too,” he declared. “So, it’s a horrible, horrible situation. And, we’re not gonna fix it.”

“Criminals are gonna be criminals. And my daddy fought in the Second World War, fought in the Pacific, fought the Japanese, and he told me, he said, ‘Buddy,’ he said, ‘if somebody wants to take you out, and doesn’t mind losing their life, there’s not a whole heck of a lot you can do about it.’”

“I don’t see any real role that we could do other than mess things up, honestly, because of the situation,” he replied. “Like I said, I don’t think a criminal is going to stop from guns, you know, you can print them out on the computer now, 3-D printing, and, there’s really, I don’t think you’re going to stop the gun violence.”

“I think you got to change people’s hearts,” the congressman said. “You know, as a Christian, as we talk about in the church, and I’ve said this many times, I think we really need a revival in this country.”

At one point, a reporter asked the GOP lawmaker: “What else should be done to protect people like your little girl from being safe in school?”

Burchett replied that it wasn’t a personal concern of his.

“Well, we homeschool her,” he responded with a shrug. “But you know, that’s our decision. Some people don’t have that option and frankly, some people don’t need to do it. I mean, they don’t have to. It just suited our needs much better.”At one point, a reporter asked the GOP lawmaker: “What else should be done to protect people like your little girl from being safe in school?”

Whole lotta folks could easily be confused for Republican House Rep. Tim Burchett of Tennessee, who is the very definition of, "I got mine, fuck everyone else."

I hope this guy chokes on his own spit, honestly. Fuckin ghoul of a human being. Not a shred of human empathy or emotion, just some attempt to pretend he has it.

Precious little kids? Not more precious than his personal armory, thank you very much!

[Darththeo]

https://www.thedailybeast.com/gop-re...l-our-daughter



Whole lotta folks could easily be confused for Republican House Rep. Tim Burchett of Tennessee, who is the very definition of, "I got mine, fuck everyone else."

I hope this guy chokes on his own spit, honestly. Fuckin ghoul of a human being. Not a shred of human empathy or emotion, just some attempt to pretend he has it.

Precious little kids? Not more precious than his personal armory, thank you very much!

Why do they always say the same debunked nonsense?

While it is true if someone is after and doesn't fear dying, there isn't much you can do at that point ... here is a novel idea? Let's not let it get to that point if we can avoid it.

[Doctor Amadeus]

If they "can't be advertised through most media" then why do these companies even have marketing departments?

Their job is to aggressively market a product. Even if it isn't allowed through "most media" it still gets advertised.

https://www.france24.com/en/americas...o-young-adults

If I believed most or even a lot of gun owners are paranoid end of the world type, lets take on the government types sure. I am not going to pretend that element doesn't exist, but frankly those I have seen like that, wouldn't actually fire a gun at anyone let alone typically hit anything. Again avid survivalist and say militia members aside who even they generally tend to weed out nuts like this.

However the kernel of those that I do believe fit what your saying are different group, but they are much much more recent in terms of volume NEW gun owners and those are the I saw this Shit in the Matrix or John Wick types. Those enthusiast who taken to wanting to own guns through inspiration and entertainment. You also have some old old timers who are more into firearms because growing up watching westerns too John Wayne, Clint Eastwood or maybe even Rambo not a cowboy.

None of those really represent a large group, and I don't know anyone who owns guns honestly who see or read about school shootings or mass shootings has some kind of blood lust that it turns them ON to guns, in fact it's the opposite. Women especially seem MOST effected by that in terms of NOT getting a gun.

So my point is this, UNLESS for say movies and entertainment, I don't see a correlation to the effectiveness of school shootings or mass shootings as being effective marketing. As I said a lot of other things happened so I agree with you about politicians having an impact or major media events like 9/11 or middle east conflicts, surge in gas prices and then crime in major cities, YES those for sure have an impact, but a large chunk of that is Entertainment.

Now none of that I said is Scientific or as thorough as what you linked just showing the numbers of deaths by year and then linking that to events as to what's goings on, but that is my own anecdotal experience as someone who has owned, fired and know people from law enforcement to my one of my best friends that owns a gun shop and gun club.

The Idea school shootings or mass shootings is great marketing isn't something I've ever seen, I COULD BE WRONG, I also live in the Midwest but nowhere I travel specifically Nevada or Montana, have I seen this when I want to go shooting more exotic firearms. None of that seems to be a factor.

[Darththeo]

The Idea school shootings or mass shootings is great marketing isn't something I've ever seen, I COULD BE WRONG, I also live in the Midwest but nowhere I travel specifically Nevada or Montana, have I seen this when I want to go shooting more exotic firearms. None of that seems to be a factor.

Not directly it isn't.

However, what is one of the first things you always hear about a mass shooting? That people are going to come for your guns. Therefore, you need to get the guns you want now. So, while it isn't direct advertisement, they stoke fear that the big bad government is coming for your guns. Fear is a great motivator.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

https://www.thedailybeast.com/gop-re...l-our-daughter



Whole lotta folks could easily be confused for Republican House Rep. Tim Burchett of Tennessee, who is the very definition of, "I got mine, fuck everyone else."

I hope this guy chokes on his own spit, honestly. Fuckin ghoul of a human being. Not a shred of human empathy or emotion, just some attempt to pretend he has it.

Precious little kids? Not more precious than his personal armory, thank you very much!

I can almost give him credit for being the first Republican to pretty much come straight out and say "Listen, fuckwits, I don't have to worry about my kids getting blown apart by an AR-15 and I couldn't give a fuck about yours!"

[Grinning Serpent]

Whole lotta folks could easily be confused for Republican House Rep. Tim Burchett of Tennessee, who is the very definition of, "I got mine, fuck everyone else."

I hope this guy chokes on his own spit, honestly. Fuckin ghoul of a human being. Not a shred of human empathy or emotion, just some attempt to pretend he has it.

Precious little kids? Not more precious than his personal armory, thank you very much!

Very definition of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Didn't we like literally last week have someone saying that they wished gun nuts would just be honest and say they care about their guns more than kids? Because at least then they're being honest? Here's one doing exactly that, giving an honest answer instead of trying to deflect with the usual "muh mental health" crap and you're still castigating him for it.



Funny thing is, he's not even wrong, really. If some shitheel wants to fuck someone else up and doesn't care about the consequences (who cares how much of your life you'd be spending in prison when you're going to commit suicide afterwards anyway?), there really isn't a lot you can do about it. And in a country with as many guns around and as easy access to them as we have, if they want a gun, they will get a gun. Last I heard, she/they (I think articles were making it sound like they're FtM? So I guess we should be saying he?) obtained the guns used legally. Maybe something could be done there, it would depend on when they obtained the guns and such. But since they had maps drawn and plans written, and even decided against shooting up a second school due to it being too secure, I feel like this person would've obtained the guns needed regardless of whether or not they could buy them legally in a gun shop. With as many guns we have in circulation, it's not going to be *that* hard for someone to find a guy in a van that's willing to sell them some of his unwanted guns. And without some kind of national registry, there's not really much that you can do to follow up on that. Registries, feature bans and restrictions, etc are all kind of "going forward" type things, they won't do anything about the several hundred million guns already in circulation and I think it would be nearly impossible to actually enforce a "private sales are illegal" law without those pre-existing guns being registered so they can be tracked accurately. Hell, I was flipping through the news today seeing if there's been more development's on the shooter's motives, and there was an article about some guy in Vancouver (Canada) being stabbed to death after politely asking some dude in a Starbucks not to vape near his baby.


As I've said before, you need guns to commit a mass shooting... but you also need a shooter. Canadians can have a whole wall full of guns for hunting and sports and they just don't ever seem to be really in the mood to go casually murder a bunch of random people and then end their own lives afterwards. Why is that? What're the differences between the average Canadian and the average American? What're the differences in how a typical Canadian views and thinks about guns, and a typical American? Burchett's arriving to the wrong conclusion - evangelism is most certainly not the solution to our country's woes, and is in many ways a primary contributor to them - but he's on the right track.


I really wish the gun control advocates would grow the fuck up about all of this. No, being told that "we can't really do a lot about the guns" is not what you want to hear. It's not the fast, decisive action and solutions we want to this problem. But that's reality. You can't keep existing in a land of make-believe where if we could only just copy what the Aussies or Canadians or Kiwis or Brits or "insert dramatically more functional Western country here" did, everything would be so much better overnight.

That's a complete fantasy. It has no basis in reality. If you want to actually solve the problem, you have to accept that the guns aren't something we can really do a lot about. We have to focus on fixing the mass shooting problem from the "why are people choosing to commit these acts?" end.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Just to clarify, I'm pro gun. I own 3 shotguns, a hunting rifle, and an antique black gunpowder pistol (if you can even count that). I don't own any handguns or assault rifles. I'm also for gun reform. As I mentioned before, this shit ain't working in this country and no one seems to want to compromise an inch. It would be one thing to try something and fail and revise strategy based on what works and what doesn't, but no one is even willing to begin the process. They throw their hands in the air and say "well, nothing can be done because of liver cancer and car crashes." It's impossible to get even a single person to admit that background checks for the legally insane would be beneficial. So yeah, don't expect improvement in this lifetime if we can't even expect genuine discussion.

I mean, same. Canada has a great model to attempt to start emulating. Gun ownership of a multitude of guns is legal and not exactly hard. When I say pro gun camp, I mean those same people who refuse to allow any kind of legislation through. There SHOULD be universal background checks, there SHOULD be a gun registry, there SHOULD be laws that holds one responsible for what happens with their guns (if not reported stolen), there SHOULD be numerous other measures, such as requirements on safes and locks to prevent children from gaining access. And yes, there should also be expanded mental health services.

We recognize the arguments from that camp for what they are, all dishonest pieces of garbage. They deflect to things like "mental health" and then refuse to do anything about mental health. They blame everything in the world but guns, and when the left plays their game and goes "Sure, okay, if it's not guns and it's this other thing, here's some legislation for this other thing" they go "NO YOU CAN'T DO THAT EITHER!"

- - - Updated - - -

I feel like this person would've obtained the guns needed regardless of whether or not they could buy them legally in a gun shop.

Yes, this is a very common argument. It's the argument of giving up. The argument that we should just throw our hands up and do nothing because some people will get their hands on guns no matter what. It's the Chicago argument. Chicago banned guns, but there was tons of gun violence anyway. Oh wait, that didn't work because you could literally drive one county over and purchase a gun there and bring it into they city... man... if only there was a way to enforce gun control nation wide so it would be MUCH MORE DIFFICULT (not entirely impossible) for these people to acquire guns instantaneously... Oh well, guess we can't do anything at all. There's no governing body that exists that could make nation wide change, may as well throw our hands up and not try because it won't be 100% effective.

[Endus]

I mean, same. Canada has a great model to attempt to start emulating. Gun ownership of a multitude of guns is legal and not exactly hard. When I say pro gun camp, I mean those same people who refuse to allow any kind of legislation through. There SHOULD be universal background checks, there SHOULD be a gun registry, there SHOULD be laws that holds one responsible for what happens with their guns (if not reported stolen), there SHOULD be numerous other measures, such as requirements on safes and locks to prevent children from gaining access. And yes, there should also be expanded mental health services.

We recognize the arguments from that camp for what they are, all dishonest pieces of garbage. They deflect to things like "mental health" and then refuse to do anything about mental health. They blame everything in the world but guns, and when the left plays their game and goes "Sure, okay, if it's not guns and it's this other thing, here's some legislation for this other thing" they go "NO YOU CAN'T DO THAT EITHER!"

Hell, they want to argue it's mental health? Let's put in a simple requirement that you be screened by a practicing, licensed psychiatrist and proactively approved for gun ownership as a necessary step in the process. It'll likely take a few sessions for them to be satisfied, but hey, this is what gun advocates want, apparently.

I think that's a troublesome way to go about it, but this is how we compromise, right?

[The Stormbringer]

Hell, they want to argue it's mental health? Let's put in a simple requirement that you be screened by a practicing, licensed psychiatrist and proactively approved for gun ownership as a necessary step in the process. It'll likely take a few sessions for them to be satisfied, but hey, this is what gun advocates want, apparently.

I think that's a troublesome way to go about it, but this is how we compromise, right?

This is a good first step, but I also hear that people are more likely to commit violent gun crime if they're struggling financially, so we should also put into place more thorough safety nets for people. Perhaps a sort of Universal Basic Income? I say we add that to the compromise too!

[Edge-]

Very definition of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Didn't we like literally last week have someone saying that they wished gun nuts would just be honest and say they care about their guns more than kids? Because at least then they're being honest? Here's one doing exactly that, giving an honest answer instead of trying to deflect with the usual "muh mental health" crap and you're still castigating him for it.

...fucking yes? Of course I am castigating him for being a soulless asshole. I'm glad he's being honest about it, but honesty isn't a shield protecting you from criticism for confirming that yes, you're a ghoul of a human being without any empathy for others.

Funny thing is, he's not even wrong, really. If some shitheel wants to fuck someone else up and doesn't care about the consequences (who cares how much of your life you'd be spending in prison when you're going to commit suicide afterwards anyway?), there really isn't a lot you can do about it.

I mean, ignoring that his father was speaking of wartime and being in a warzone and we're in peacetime and not in a warzone and all...

As a generality yes, this is something I think about often, including how little protection most of what we feel makes us "safe" actually affords to someone who is determined to cause you harm. The homes of 99.9% of people? Incredibly easy to breach for anyone who is actually determined.

But that's also completely fucking stupid and unreasonable. Because that's true globally. And also, that's not the kind of thing you base laws around.

And in a country with as many guns around and as easy access to them as we have, if they want a gun, they will get a gun. Last I heard, she/they (I think articles were making it sound like they're FtM? So I guess we should be saying he?) obtained the guns used legally.

Yes, and that acquisition process is what continues to be focused on in terms of gun control, including red flag laws that may have been effective here or simply ensuring that their mental health diagnosis was reported and factored into the background check.

Just because we already have a lot of guns doesn't mean there's nothing we can do about this.

But since they had maps drawn and plans written, and even decided against shooting up a second school due to it being too secure, I feel like this person would've obtained the guns needed regardless of whether or not they could buy them legally in a gun shop.

Quite possible! But I'd imagine that given their reluctance to target a second location that if there were additional barriers to getting their weapons it might have deterred their shootings in general. Or you know, fairly common sense shit like medical diagnosis that indicate that an individual is a credible risk to others with a gun actually preventing people from getting guns.

I saw this as someone who would have fallen under one of these kinds of rules for quite some time when battling depression. And while I never would have shot someone else, there's no reasonable world in which I should have been allowed to purchase a gun given my mental state at the time.

With as many guns we have in circulation, it's not going to be *that* hard for someone to find a guy in a van that's willing to sell them some of his unwanted guns.

And once that gun is used in a crime it's removed from circulation. It's a problem that largely works itself out over a long enough period of time. Like most solutions, it's not fast or perfect.

As I've said before, you need guns to commit a mass shooting... but you also need a shooter. Canadians can have a whole wall full of guns for hunting and sports and they just don't ever seem to be really in the mood to go casually murder a bunch of random people and then end their own lives afterwards. Why is that? What're the differences between the average Canadian and the average American? What're the differences in how a typical Canadian views and thinks about guns, and a typical American? Burchett's arriving to the wrong conclusion - evangelism is most certainly not the solution to our country's woes, and is in many ways a primary contributor to them - but he's on the right track.

Might you think it's due to their policies around firearms? Limitations on the types available for purchase? Treating it as a privilege to be earned, and easily revoked, rather than a right?

Because again, the alternative largely continues to simply be, "Americans are uniquely bloodthirsty and murderous and are unique in our love of mass murder and the murder of children, amongst developed nations."

Which is an alternative that I don't think is born out with actual data and one I'd largely reject in general.

I really wish the gun control advocates would grow the fuck up about all of this.

Unlike those dead kids who can't.

No, being told that "we can't really do a lot about the guns" is not what you want to hear. It's not the fast, decisive action and solutions we want to this problem. But that's reality. You can't keep existing in a land of make-believe where if we could only just copy what the Aussies or Canadians or Kiwis or Brits or "insert dramatically more functional Western country here" did, everything would be so much better overnight.

Like...we know this thought? We're all very aware of this?

Our frustrating is more than so many people simply find the level of death and dead kids and shit perfectly acceptable and buy into so much propaganda. That's why we keep talking of "ought" rather than "is", because we know the chances for a Second Amendment repeal are zero. The discussion here is more with people arguing against the repeal and why they stand by the Second Amendment right, which largely has resulted in, "Because the Second Amendment exists and slipper slopes." which I suppose is a reason, but it's not necessarily a particularly good one.

That's a complete fantasy. It has no basis in reality. If you want to actually solve the problem, you have to accept that the guns aren't something we can really do a lot about. We have to focus on fixing the mass shooting problem from the "why are people choosing to commit these acts?" end.

The reality is there's simply no solving the problem with the Second Amendment in place. There's simply nothing to do to stop it, especially with the level of "THEY'RE TAKEN YER GUNZ" fearmongering and propaganda that continues to be incredibly effective at selling guns and ensuring more and more access to them as many Republican states make moves to make open care more available and/or lower the age requirements to own or open carry weapons.

Because the crowd that says this very thing (not criticizing you), that we can't do anything about the guns and that we should take action elsewhere, also seems to never want to take action elsewhere. Because they disagree with the actions suggested by the data and/or don't want to pay for it because why can't preventing this kind of violence just be free?

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Very definition of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Didn't we like literally last week have someone saying that they wished gun nuts would just be honest and say they care about their guns more than kids? Because at least then they're being honest? Here's one doing exactly that, giving an honest answer instead of trying to deflect with the usual "muh mental health" crap and you're still castigating him for it.

He's going on TV and saying "Fuck your dead kids" and you think we should be giving him praise for his "brave honesty"?

[Trifle]

Apparently shootings are now the leading cause of death amongst Americans aged 1-19... good job America, clearly no gun reform needed.

[Cthulhu 2020]

The one silver lining to gun violence growing insanely out of control is that at a certain point, we'll reach a boiling point where people just won't stand it any more and the second amendment will be up for axing, which would be wonderful. I don't believe we'll ever get rid of guns, but without 2A in the way, we can actually implement some common sense stuff.

[Grinning Serpent]

You can't compromised when one side isn't even willing to discuss the issue.

The irony is that you're assuming it's the gun nuts that are the ones that aren't willing to have a discussion or compromise.