Diablo 4 is bad.

[kenn9530]

snip

Last Epoch is currently not offering a lot of content to do right now, D4 on the other hand is offering a ton of content to do at release, and last epoch is still getting monetization, D4 is not granting any power whatsoever in its premium battle pass, its all cosmetic rewards, Last Epoch is a 40 dollar game because it offers far less content, as soon as Last Epoch releases that price is going up, D4 has far more content than LE so its worth the money to buy the game.

So currently last epoch is losing in terms of available content, and its still got a long time before its official release while D4 is almost releasing.

[Yriel]

There are 100 levels so things can't be to big at the lower levels or they will be way over powered at the higher ones.

But you only get 63 skillpoints as far as i've read. So they are quite rare, to spent one for 1,3% more healing, 3 points of spirit or 2 points of damage seems just bad. You don't even notice that.
I feel like leveling up and spending your skillpoint should at least be noticable, thats a big part of the motivation to play these games and leveling. D3 was better in that regard.

[kenn9530]

But you only get 63 skillpoints as far as i've read. So they are quite rare, to spent one for 1,3% more healing, 3 points of spirit or 2 points of damage seems just bad. You don't even notice that.
I feel like leveling up and spending your skillpoint should at least be noticable, thats a big part of the motivation to play these games and leveling. D3 was better in that regard.

D3 you didnt get to spend any points until paragon so you have no choice and even paragon didnt give you a choice, even in D3 you wouldnt notice any difference by spending a point in paragon, you need to spend a ton of paragon in D3 to make any sort of difference.

At level 50 you will have all your skill points, after lvl 50 you will get paragon points, power just like in D3 came mostly from items and will work the same in D4, points are not supposed to give you a noticable difference from spending one single point, its the accumulation of many points where you notice.

[Mamut]

I feel like leveling up and spending your skillpoint should at least be noticable, thats a big part of the motivation to play these games and leveling. D3 was better in that regard.

And it is because with each level up and point spend you unlock more skills that enhance your gameplay. How is this different from D3 or not noticable?

[Stanelis1]

Last Epoch plays the same lol, infact the whole leveling campaign is fairly boring you just have to do it to unlock your idol slots and extra passives, and the +1 all stats for the very last quest hand in, ARPG gameplay is endgame not the story, the story in D4 is far superior than other ARPGs so its at least more interesting.

So you believe just following a set path like in D3 is a better game with no deviation or choice in what to do, there was not that much to do at D3 release, you were forced to get the pony land staff so you could farm act 4 level items or you couldnt progress past the mosquitos in act 2, it was a massive grind to even get a usuable yellow let alone a usuable legendery. It was fine but i would hardly call it more entertaining with only one choice of gameplay.

D3 became its true form in RoS.

Last Epoch is unfinished currently but at least build variety is more interesting than what we saw from DIV with its skill tree (and the leaked parangon tree doesn't seem interesting). I mean you have even have a suirrel summoner build, as an example. You also have some sort of mapping in Last Epoch that is actually enough for me in term of endgame content (what matters the most to me is whether the game feels fun to play when it comes to builds). Also you speak of DIV story but to me it is very cheesy (and anyway it s not the reason I play ARPG, like when they say they ll add story with updates I m like ok but that s simply not what I m looking in a Hack and Slash). Just like the open world that feels like a very large classic map, it may be great for a MMOPG but that simply not what I m looking for in this sort of game.

Also I m talking about fun here, D3 sure was very limited when it comes to builds (even though I think it was more interesting than what we have in DIV, because DIV is artificial build complexity) but at least it felt fun to play. As for the mosquitoes you re talking about the inferno mode issue at release that got overhauled.

But if you have fun in DIV good for you I just don't have the same opinion about the game. You won't convince me that the game is fun (and I m the first one upset about that fact because I had high expectations from it, after all D2 is a reference in H&S).

[rhorle]

But you only get 63 skillpoints as far as i've read. So they are quite rare, to spent one for 1,3% more healing, 3 points of spirit or 2 points of damage seems just bad. You don't even notice that. I feel like leveling up and spending your skillpoint should at least be noticable, thats a big part of the motivation to play these games and leveling. D3 was better in that regard.

Abilities will scale from gear so at lower levels that % healing is going to be lower, right? While at level cap with end-game gear it won't be the same amount as level 20. Another thing I've noticed is people don't always put importance into the other stuff abilities grant. For example on the world boss you could stagger and it would lose armor/damage and be stunned for like 12 seconds. Ice sorcs were apparently really good at filling up that bar as someone said them and their friends got 4 during one world boss kill and usually got 3.

I saw someone who was in the closed beta say there is a world boss that releases loot goblins when it gets staggered so strategies for the fight were low damage high stagger to maximize loot. Not sure if Blizzard will change that for the release version but it at least gives purpose to some of the skills that might not seem as useful at first glance.

[kenn9530]

Last Epoch is unfinished currently but at least build variety is more interesting than what we saw from DIV with its skill tree (and the leaked parangon tree doesn't seem interesting). I mean you have even have a suirrel summoner build, as an example. You also have some sort of mapping in Last Epoch that is actually enough for me in term of endgame content (what matters the most to me is whether the game feels fun to play when it comes to builds). Also you speak of DIV story but to me it is very cheesy (and anyway it s not the reason I play ARPG, like when they say they ll add story with updates I m like ok but that s simply not what I m looking in a Hack and Slash). Just like the open world that feels like a very large classic map, it may be great for a MMOPG but that simply not what I m looking for in this sort of game.

Also I m talking about fun here, D3 sure was very limited when it comes to builds (even though I think it was more interesting than what we have in DIV, because DIV is artificial build complexity) but at least it felt fun to play. As for the mosquitoes you re talking about the inferno mode issue at release that got overhauled.

But if you have fun in DIV good for you I just don't have the same opinion about the game. You won't convince me that the game is fun (and I m the first one upset about that fact because I had high expectations from it, after all D2 is a reference in H&S).

Its an ARPG build variety comes from access to legenderies or in last epoch uniques, D4 you barely get any access to these items which are essential in making different builds, last epoch you usually stick to one build because you cant just easily switch straight away since you need to level up your skills again, i have played a ton of last epoch i know its full content, its D3 rifts with a choice of what reward you want at the end thats it along with an occasional boss fight if you want items from it.

You are trying to compare games where one has access to many different items that lets you create more builds to a demo of a game with very limited items and level cap, the first 20 levels in last epoch is just boring and slow but im not complaining about the entry leveling exp and acting like thats all the game has to offer.

The gameplay in both last epoch and D4 is essentially the same, what is different is D4 at release is offering far more content than last epoch. D3 you had like one build and if you didnt play that build in vanilla D3 it didnt go very smoothly, vanilla D3 you were lucky to get a legendery let alone make a build that could clear inferno.

[Edge-]

If these betas are any indication, balance in the longterm is gonna be all kinds of fun. Hopefully not since I doubt they spend much time balancing low level vs. max level shit, but still funny to me.

Got to 20, got annoyed/bored fighting the world boss. It's still fine. Lightning sorc is very strong but not super exciting.

Still very "ok" on the game. Production values are clearly on display and it's very nice looking and all, but at the same time I'm still finding myself overall way less hype/excited than I thought I'd be. Still will likely get it at/around launch and I hope it does get a lot more interesting/exciting with build diversity and with legendries like it seems it will.

[Arikara]

ARPG gameplay is endgame not the story, the story in D4 is far superior than other ARPGs so its at least more interesting.

Lol. No other ARPG has made me eyeroll so early and so much with its "story". I'd call D4's story the worst in any ARPG by the tone alone that they attempt to establish yet fail to nail down.

As far as endgame is concerned, D4 has no endgame. What they promise is only a meaningless threadmill that tries to keep you occupied with nothing-carrots. Better than D2's lobby endgame maybe, but there is nothing compelling to find there.

D4 is a shiny themepark with no rides. It will crash and burn a week after launch.

[rhorle]

D4 is a shiny themepark with no rides. It will crash and burn a week after launch.

Lol. It is crazy how many people actually believe that it will crash and burn let alone a week after launch.

[kenn9530]

Lol. No other ARPG has made me eyeroll so early and so much with its "story". I'd call D4's story the worst in any ARPG by the tone alone that they attempt to establish yet fail to nail down.

As far as endgame is concerned, D4 has no endgame. What they promise is only a meaningless threadmill that tries to keep you occupied with nothing-carrots. Better than D2's lobby endgame maybe, but there is nothing compelling to find there.

D4 is a shiny themepark with no rides. It will crash and burn a week after launch.

What are you smoking, D4 already has more endgame at its release then D3 had in its whole run so D4 is already better, most ARPGs if not all noone really cares about the story, i didnt even pay attention to last epoch story at all or PoE, you dont play these games just for story, but Diablo and D4 is a better story than all the other ARPGs, also you do a few quests in D4 relating to the story and thats it.

D4 is going to do just as good or even better than D3 and thats enough for it to beat pretty much every other ARPG available. Im pretty sure many were saying D3 would crash and burn and its one of the most succesful ARPGs out there.

[Edge-]

As far as endgame is concerned, D4 has no endgame. What they promise is only a meaningless threadmill that tries to keep you occupied with nothing-carrots. Better than D2's lobby endgame maybe, but there is nothing compelling to find there.

It's literally the standard ARPG endgame of, "Farm content for better gear." That's what every ARPG endgame is, just with different methods of delivering farming content.

D4 is a shiny themepark with no rides. It will crash and burn a week after launch.

I didn't know Michael Pachter frequented this forum.

[Arikara]

What are you smoking, D4 already has more endgame at its release then D3 had in its whole run so D4 is already better, most ARPGs if not all noone really cares about the story, i didnt even pay attention to last epoch story at all or PoE, you dont play these games just for story, but Diablo and D4 is a better story than all the other ARPGs, also you do a few quests in D4 relating to the story and thats it.

If the goal is set according to D3, then it's an automatic failure. Ah, alas, but they have missed the mark even on that; D4 has already proved itself inferior to D3.

D4 is going to do just as good or even better than D3 and thats enough for it to beat pretty much every other ARPG available.

I suppose that I should not be surprised to find your standards so low. Themepark, indeed.

It's literally the standard ARPG endgame of, "Farm content for better gear." That's what every ARPG endgame is, just with different methods of delivering farming content.

Yes, and some of them do it well. Not D4, apparently! Their idea of "endgame" is to have timed events in regions that you can slog around with a spooky skybox and monsters with uninteresting modifiers. Fun comes with interactions and decisions, and the only choice that offers is whether or not to wade around in the event zone. What tripe. You'd think they could do better, but they've failed to prove it.

[Edge-]

Yes, and some of them do it well. Not D4, apparently! Their idea of "endgame" is to have timed events in regions that you can slog around with a spooky skybox and monsters with uninteresting modifiers. Fun comes with interactions and decisions, and the only choice that offers is whether or not to wade around in the event zone. What tripe. You'd think they could do better, but they've failed to prove it.

I guess you're in the endgame beta or whatever? I'm not, so I can't say if their version of endgame farming is good or not, yet. From what they've shared of the endgame it seems fine - you've got nightmare dungeons to farm if that's your thing, you have some time-gated world bosses if you want, there's open-world farming on higher world tiers with helltides or whatever if that's your thing, bounties for specific enemies etc.

Seems fine to me conceptually.

[kenn9530]

If the goal is set according to D3, then it's an automatic failure. Ah, alas, but they have missed the mark even on that; D4 has already proved itself inferior to D3.



I suppose that I should not be surprised to find your standards so low. Themepark, indeed.



Yes, and some of them do it well. Not D4, apparently! Their idea of "endgame" is to have timed events in regions that you can slog around with a spooky skybox and monsters with uninteresting modifiers. Fun comes with interactions and decisions, and the only choice that offers is whether or not to wade around in the event zone. What tripe. You'd think they could do better, but they've failed to prove it.

So according to you D3 is a failure, im not sure in any reality selling 30 million plus is considered a failure and the game being active until its final season, along with solid gameplay.

D4 improves on everything D3 had and adds a ton of content from the start, many different ways to play and gear up not just limited to the highest level act you can do or rift/GR farming until you eventually get all your items, D4 is giving the players many choices unlike some other ARPGs with only one route to improve.

What are you on about timed events for endgame, they are just events you can do as your running around, its pretty obvious you have no clue what D4 endgame actually is and are projecting all your assumptions from doing a small portion of the game.

[rhorle]

What are you on about timed events for endgame, they are just events you can do as your running around, its pretty obvious you have no clue what D4 endgame actually is and are projecting all your assumptions from doing a small portion of the game.

They are referencing Helltides. They last about an hour and are region-wide. Only around for world tier 3 Nightmare.

[kenn9530]

They are referencing Helltides. They last about an hour and are region-wide. Only around for world tier 3 Nightmare.

They are still just events in the open world not the only thing to do at endgame, they are basically normal events for better skilled/gear players, still plenty of other endgame activities.

He is acting like its the only endgame for the game.

[Mojo03]

My fear is endgame is largely just going to be chasing higher number gear or very specific drops, which I think is an enormous waste of time.

It's looking a lot like they aren't going to even try to innovate on that.

So, I don't think I'll be playing past the first couple weeks much, if at all.

Another issue I don't see being addressed enough is how bad the reflections look in the game. It's got that Unreal 3 level reflection engine that makes everything look plastic. Surprised this isn't being talked about more, because it really brings the game down a couple notches, where it otherwise looks pretty good.

[Stanelis1]

Its an ARPG build variety comes from access to legenderies or in last epoch uniques, D4 you barely get any access to these items which are essential in making different builds, last epoch you usually stick to one build because you cant just easily switch straight away since you need to level up your skills again, i have played a ton of last epoch i know its full content, its D3 rifts with a choice of what reward you want at the end thats it along with an occasional boss fight if you want items from it.

You are trying to compare games where one has access to many different items that lets you create more builds to a demo of a game with very limited items and level cap, the first 20 levels in last epoch is just boring and slow but im not complaining about the entry leveling exp and acting like thats all the game has to offer.

The gameplay in both last epoch and D4 is essentially the same, what is different is D4 at release is offering far more content than last epoch. D3 you had like one build and if you didnt play that build in vanilla D3 it didnt go very smoothly, vanilla D3 you were lucky to get a legendery let alone make a build that could clear inferno.

People keep saying that the beta is no indication of the endgame but I m sorry to say this but a lot of design choice of DIV that can be found in the beta makes no sense at all, at least to me. Like needing to put point in every abilities in the tree before being able to try them. Usually talent trees are made to specialize in a skill or to morph them, but how are you able to choose without being able to test the skills ? Also in last epoch builds don't necessarily comes from uniques, skill trees add a lot of flavor to skills and morph them significantly. Not all build are reliant on uniques, even if some builds are indeed enabled by uniques. Also some players here talked about how individual talent points feel underwhelming in the beta and it is a very valid concern.

Also people keep talking about endgame content but in a Hack and Slash (diablo games are Hack and slashes btw, not ARPG, ARPG are soul like games and the like of those) we all know it will be a variation of mapping or maybe dungeon crawling. In most H&S it is the case. Just throw a map here and put mobs inside, shake it and you have endgame....

You are trying to compare games where one has access to many different items that lets you create more builds to a demo of a game with very limited items and level cap, the first 20 levels in last epoch is just boring and slow but im not complaining about the entry leveling exp and acting like thats all the game has to offer.

First 20 levels in last epoch are fine and are more exciting to me than what DIV has to offer in the beta. I don't really know what you re trying to tell me. You can t change my feelings or opinion on DIV...

[Edge-]

My fear is endgame is largely just going to be chasing higher number gear or very specific drops, which I think is an enormous waste of time.

I mean, that is the literal core endgame of the ARPG genre in general. It's what these non-narrative focused games are built on.

It's looking a lot like they aren't going to even try to innovate on that.

Innovate it to what? You're either a fan of this style of game or you're not.