Prot paladins are over performing, WHAT A BIG SURPRISE.

[Delekii]

The tank dying is hardly ever the reason why a dungeon wasn't completed in time. The vast majority of cases is dps fucking up and healers unable to do proper aoe healing, not to mention dps just not killing the mobs fast enough.

None of these situations can be helped by the tank.

Except when it is a paladin, which can often solo heal the party while tanking in low keys, and save many people many times when they fuck up. Hence, this thread.

Lay on hands
Hand of protection/spellwarding
Hand of sacrifice
Hand of freedom with +30% movespeed
Word of glory which 50% heals people from low health frequently, even after nerf.
Bubble aoe taunt for gaurunteed no death and no aggro.

[Sufifi]

I've read from a lot of people playing multiple tanks during S1, the consensus is that being a Guardian Druid isn't a problem until you push 24+ which is where Prot Pal's qualities (huge dps, free interrupts and all the utility that has been mentioned) really start to make any other tank obsolete. With that said, I do believe that behind Prot Pals, tanks are pretty close to one another. Regarding Guardian Druids specifically :

Guardian is really easy. Just like BM hunter, it should never be on top.

THis is a popular opinion but I don't believe it to be true (At least in m+). I do agree that we have a lot less binds than other tanks (not even counting BrM which is in a league of its own) but with so little passive mitigation and no cheat death at your disposal you have to be a lot more proactive than when playing other tanks, imo Guardian is less forgiving of mistakes and forces you to plan your CDs, kicks and stops included.

Guardian ain't gonna be picked regardless of prot nerfs. You are in the dumps.

I wouldn't agree with that either, Guardian is in a much better spot right now than when DF was released and 10.1.5 will make that even better by allowing bears to pick UFR without lowering our damage, giving us some valuable passive mitigation.

Imo what bears really need right now is some kind of unique utility, Stampeding Roar has saved countless lives of slow reacting people in S1, After the Wildfire provides very good offhealing (Even better vs bosses where you generate a ton of rage such as tree boss in AA or Sha of Doubt) but none of this inclines people to invite bears in keys. Symbiosis would be great, Leader of the Pack would be nice too especially since Feral suffers from the same problem as bear does in the utility area...

[Loveliest]

You again, what a surprise.
Im not gonna bother with arguments because you're not interested in that.
So to get to the point, what is wrong with you exactly? Why don't you ask for your bear to be buffed instead of spewing hate?
Let's say they nerf paladins, would this really make your bear more enjoyable to play? The grass is always greener on the other side.
Even if they nerf pala, it will still be the most popular tank, because it's fun. And bear the least popular, because it's not. Get over it. They won't erase paladins from the game no matter how much hate you show. And they won't buff your bear if you don't ask for buffs but just display an irrational level of hate against paladins every post you make here. At this point, you just look like you're displaying weird tendencies where you think you'll feel good if others have it bad. There's a medical term for it.

[anon5123]

Guardian is really easy. Just like BM hunter, it should never be on top.

"(class) should never be on top!"

Glad you're not working on the game, holy shit lmao

[Imnotadentist]

Id say its more so the otehr tank specs are under performing
not much else you can take away from prot pally after seraphim, so buff the other tanks;

[Xath]

Guardian druid dogshit? WTF?! xD

Whats your experience if I may know?

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They are EXTREMELY tanky.

Double grip.

AMS.
AMZ.

blood tap
vampiric blood

unstoppable with their movement and knock back/off immunities





wait what?! o.O
Do you even death strike?

do you know what prot palas gain/lose by casting WOGs?

your self heal is part of your normal rotation.

40% dodge






as I said earlier:

double grip
range kick
blood tap
ABSOLUTELY biggest self heal (good bdk can easily pump 90-110k hps)
semi-strong cleave dmg

If you legitimately think that Prot Pallys are not by far the best M+ tanks currently you have zero idea how to play one to even a basic level.

[Xkiller9000]

This thread was brought to you by a prot warrior/BDK main. Both of which were meta for most seasons since their inception. This is the first season ever that prot pala is the top dog. Let us be, we already got nerfed enough.

BDK highest skill tank, should always be top

[Fuiking]

? Paladin have not been OP since forever. They had good dps with Ashen Hollow in SL but were still not the meta pick. Were never the meta pick in BfA or Legion; even where in the bottom for much of either. They were A-tier for the first half of DF S1 and only got S-tier after people geared up. Meanwhile BrM has been the meta pick for nearly half the raid tiers that have existed since it was introduced.

So they are good at questing. So are hunters at far faster kill speeds.

also prot paladins werent a thing in vanilla and tbc either. We had the spec but no one in there right mind took one.

[M1r4g3]

The only real thing they are outperforming other tanks on is having group utility, everything else they are average with a few specific exceptions, so obviously good players will gravitate towards that due to the high carry potential.

Instead of crying like a little b**ch that the top 0.001% use prot paladins how about you instead ask blizzard for utility buffs/additions for other tanks? There is so much stuff that could be added to make them all unique in their own way, how about warriors get safeguard back, heroic throw being a ranged silence, thunderous roar ministun, berserker rage removing dots or something, that took a whopping 30sec to come up with...

[baskev]

? Paladin have not been OP since forever. They had good dps with Ashen Hollow in SL but were still not the meta pick. Were never the meta pick in BfA or Legion; even where in the bottom for much of either. They were A-tier for the first half of DF S1 and only got S-tier after people geared up. Meanwhile BrM has been the meta pick for nearly half the raid tiers that have existed since it was introduced.

So they are good at questing. So are hunters at far faster kill speeds.

paladins have always been very good. And i did not say forever. Ages does not mean Forever. Ages means that are good for long stretches of time. and then get nerfed. while druids get nerf hammer very fast..... you know that part of my text that gives context to this sentence . the pary you cut out :P.....sigh.

[arkanon]

I'm gonna disagree. Ferals are complex and they sucked at dps for years. Also BM is easy as fuck and they were top 3 dps for many expansion.

But......they DO balance like that, specs and classes. Even down to talents - there are exceptions, but typically the more complex a d demanding specs offer higher potential dps.

Disagree all you want.

[Thalrend]

and OP kinda forgets that all parses are from a level they will never ever play at, nor will 90+% of this site. So comparing themselves to that is utterly laughable.

Okay I bite. Season one DF warrior vs guardian druid? Season 1 Df prot paladin after buffs vs guardian?

The rio back then was also similar to this situation. And when you played the classes YOU COULD feel the difference. Now i quit 2 weeks later of primordial stone pacth and my rio on my druid was 2.9k. By no means I am a top 60 player i am not even close to that. But I also played a warrior and a paladin and i can say that I HAD MUCH MUCH MUCH easier time in those classes because tuning for them is much better than the druid. I also admit getting a bit annoyed and stop pushing after a while in season, so maybe I would reach a bit higher but i didnt so it is would have could have at that point.

It does effects me tho, since in season 1 i had MUCH harder time to find groups on my guardian compared to my warrior and paladin when i was looking for pug groups. Now you will say well dont pug, sure but MY friend group have limited time that 5 people can be online at same time. And i dont wanna run around laps around the fountain for funsies. When a class is overtuned, it does effect the other classes in the same role. Assuming it doesnt is bad faith argument.

The example i gave as FIRST 60 thing is, if a class is not overperforming, you will not see such a big gap of representation in the top. Its so ignorant to assume that Prot paladins at this very moment are not overperforming. I don't understand how this is even a conversation at this point man.

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The only real thing they are outperforming other tanks on is having group utility, everything else they are average with a few specific exceptions, so obviously good players will gravitate towards that due to the high carry potential.

Instead of crying like a little b**ch that the top 0.001% use prot paladins how about you instead ask blizzard for utility buffs/additions for other tanks? There is so much stuff that could be added to make them all unique in their own way, how about warriors get safeguard back, heroic throw being a ranged silence, thunderous roar ministun, berserker rage removing dots or something, that took a whopping 30sec to come up with...

Because, as much as i like other classes getting utility that makes their spec unique and fun, the reality blizz simply dont do massive changes to more than 1 spec per pacth. So at this point even if they do it and lets say the bump vengance up like they did with prot paladin, rest of the tanks specs still will be left in the shadow compared to them.

Prot paladins getting a nerf in meantime is more than fair however. I am sorry but the spec is overperforming. I never said they were this unkillable juggernaut that can tank the whole dungeon without needing heals bullshit. Your kit is part of why you can be also broken my man. And the nerf doesnt have to be big DPS decreases or being a paper tank. Nerf can be applied in a nuanced way, but blizz generally choose the nuke option. At this stage of the game, I do think they need a nerf. Don't know how this is such a outlandish statement is beyond me.

Either that or blizz does the magical rework of all other specs will not happen. Guardian was Shit compared to other tank. NOTICE I SAY COMPARED TO OTHERS, and what blizzard did was OKAY MAN here more hp to your mastery. The fuck?

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Id say its more so the otehr tank specs are under performing
not much else you can take away from prot pally after seraphim, so buff the other tanks;

Maybe true but I don't see blizzard buffing all other tank specs on a meaningfull way, I don't see a example of they doing that apart from dogshit bandaid fixes like mastery buff of guardian at end of season 1 in DF where they were the worst tank for a whole season and its not even close really.

[Thirtyrock]

I never said DKs aren't extremely tanky. If you enter a pack without a CD up as a DK or aren't glued to your health bar you're going to enter purgatory very quickly. It's ignorance to state otherwise, and I've done plenty of keys in the 19-21 range in the last couple weeks. Stating that DKs do a lot of HPS is just pointless drivel. The class is literally self-sufficient, and if you play it wrong you don't do good HPS because you're fucking dead.

You completely glossed over anything I said to meet your own narrative. The entire post is about protection paladins overperforming and I stated reasons as to why that might be. Of course DKs can kick a lot of things, but bringing that up in a thread about PROTECTION PALADINS and comparing what protection paladins can do to a DK (or any tank) is a very bad comparison. Without assuming it's like you're trying to distract from the idea that protection paladins aren't the kings of literally stopping casts in dungeons. There is no tank that can cause as much disruption consistently over an entire key than a paladin, even mediocre paladins are going to interrupt a shit load of things by shear accident, while godly ones can shut down entire packs.

I play pretty much every tank aside from bears because I don't like how they play, and I haven't played DHs in ages. I know full well what you lose for casting WoG on anything other than yourself, but thinking about WoG as just something you use on yourself in high level play is completely narrow minded. DKs having high self-healing doesn't mean anything for your GROUP if you can't do anything about that person getting molested by a 12 second DoT that's ticking for 50% of their health every couple seconds, with a knock back coming up that does 50% of the groups health as well.

To turn this question around, do you know what happens in dungeons when your protection paladin on dangerous trash packs (to the group) or dangerous bosses with high priority target damage doesn't use WoG on their allies? They die, and you're just an awful protection paladin. I can name a lot of bosses in this set of dungeons where having the ability to bomb giant heals on allies is a massive boon to the group. I can't really name many bosses where failure to use WoG exclusively on yourself because you 'lose' too much is going to cause you to die to said boss.

Some healers and classes aren't equipped to deal with strong ST heals on priority targets, all the while dealing with massive rot damage. Protection paladins on the other hand fix these issues with classes lacking defensives, or some healers being ill equipped to deal with strong burst healing on a moments notice. People aren't going to die with a protection paladin in the group on the third boss in Uldaman, they probably will die depending on group composition and some of the worst ST healers though if you bring any other tank.

Congratulations on listing DK defensive CDs and also mentioning blood tap for some weird reason???

I main Havoc and tank as Vengeance. I played Prot Paladin for a LONG time. One of the biggest things I see as a difference between DH & Prot is that a DH's primary AM is out of rotation whereas a Paladin's biggest AMs, SotR and Consecration are damage dealing rotational abilities*. You can overcommit your AM on a Prot by using up all your Holy Power, but you can't forget about it completely. It also regens incredibly quickly compared to Demon Spikes. AND it does good damage AND if you're not in danger you can help your group.

The only thing I'd change about DHs is adding back our Sigil of Chains as baseline. It's too expensive, talent point wise, to get and it's SO effective at controlling groups. That by itself would, imo, move DHs up from B to A tier.

*the new frailty mechanic has helped some with this, but it takes a while to build because each stack only lasts 6 seconds (iirc) and you can apply AT MOST 2 at a time to your primary target, granting 4% per stack damage reduction. The beginning of big pulls can be very dicey if you don't have metamorphasis or fel devastation available. After a few soul cleaves, it gets much easier and the heals start to pick up. But the number of times I've almost died in the first 3-5 globals of a pull....

[Glorious Leader]

This reasoning is simply bullshit and Blizz does not balance specs like that.

I mean i fucking hope not.

[Tojara]

I main Havoc and tank as Vengeance. I played Prot Paladin for a LONG time. One of the biggest things I see as a difference between DH & Prot is that a DH's primary AM is out of rotation whereas a Paladin's biggest AMs, SotR and Consecration are damage dealing rotational abilities*. You can overcommit your AM on a Prot by using up all your Holy Power, but you can't forget about it completely. It also regens incredibly quickly compared to Demon Spikes. AND it does good damage AND if you're not in danger you can help your group.

The only thing I'd change about DHs is adding back our Sigil of Chains as baseline. It's too expensive, talent point wise, to get and it's SO effective at controlling groups. That by itself would, imo, move DHs up from B to A tier.

*the new frailty mechanic has helped some with this, but it takes a while to build because each stack only lasts 6 seconds (iirc) and you can apply AT MOST 2 at a time to your primary target, granting 4% per stack damage reduction. The beginning of big pulls can be very dicey if you don't have metamorphasis or fel devastation available. After a few soul cleaves, it gets much easier and the heals start to pick up. But the number of times I've almost died in the first 3-5 globals of a pull....

I played protection paladin heavily throughout the years and while I skimped on it a bit in Shadowlands, I distinctly remember keeping their active mitigation up 100% of the time simply by macroing the ability into literally every ability in MoP. That was in an age of protection paladin where your active mitigation had no duration cap, and you could literally have it running upwards of two minutes after popping CDs on the pull during that age, especially with procs. This was during an age of cheesing AP by taking as much damage as possible through sitting down or physically taking damage you normally wouldn't take and using your defensives to ramp up the vengeance scaling. During this era you would take the talent that halved the direct healing of your WoG, but made it a rolling HoT on party memebers, which with high AP scaling during the vengeance area was an absurd heal on anybody you touched.

I don't play protection 24/7 in DF, but I do play it regularly. Active mitigation approaches or is pretty much near full uptime from my time playing it, especially in dungeons. You have lots of defensive layering regardless and even though there's a cap on the length of your AM I never really struggle to keep it going. You can just spam blessed hammer prior to a pull and enter pulls with your AM rolling and depending on the size of the pack (or key level) another defensive rolling as well. A relatively strong, but overlooked asset of protection paladins is they have two very strong buttons with relatively short CDs that essentially glue mobs to you on a pull. Divine toll and Tyr's Radiance setup pulls with lots of upfront damage or utility with little risk of damage dealers pulling off you. Divine toll having a large radius, decent damage and short CD, all the while bringing any caster into the fold immediately. Tyr's has a short CD, does a lot of damage (especially if talented), and also serves as a defensive CD.

DK/DH behave almost exactly the same. You have a lot of CDs (more so with DK), and the entrance of the pull is a lot scarier than once you're in the meat of things. You have very little snap threat outside of trinkets and tombstone, and most of your damage/multipliers are setup by using DnD. Failure to refresh boneshield prior to a pull, or not having pooled RP at the end of the pull sets you up to being vulnerable on a new pull, especially when you have overzealous DPS. Once setup both classes operate fine, and depending on the dungeon/affixes you may have to kite at the end (bolstering especially), but that's fine because most tanks aren't going to face tank a giga bolstered mob at the end of the pull.

Protection just hands down has the best group utility and it's not my intention to cry for them to be nerfed. They have great defensive layers, the best interrupts, great snap threat and the best group utility in regards to 5 mans in the game. The last point is especially poignant in an age where they are actively trying to make healers use almost all of their GCDs on healing as opposed to just bringing the healer that does the most damage. Some healers (due to design) just aren't good enough to deal with consistent high priority target heals, while contending with rot damage at the exact same time. Protection paladins offer a reprieve from that as their the only tank with tools that bring that sort of utility.

[Tech614]

I main Havoc and tank as Vengeance. I played Prot Paladin for a LONG time. One of the biggest things I see as a difference between DH & Prot is that a DH's primary AM is out of rotation whereas a Paladin's biggest AMs, SotR and Consecration are damage dealing rotational abilities*. You can overcommit your AM on a Prot by using up all your Holy Power, but you can't forget about it completely. It also regens incredibly quickly compared to Demon Spikes. AND it does good damage AND if you're not in danger you can help your group.

The only thing I'd change about DHs is adding back our Sigil of Chains as baseline. It's too expensive, talent point wise, to get and it's SO effective at controlling groups. That by itself would, imo, move DHs up from B to A tier.

*the new frailty mechanic has helped some with this, but it takes a while to build because each stack only lasts 6 seconds (iirc) and you can apply AT MOST 2 at a time to your primary target, granting 4% per stack damage reduction. The beginning of big pulls can be very dicey if you don't have metamorphasis or fel devastation available. After a few soul cleaves, it gets much easier and the heals start to pick up. But the number of times I've almost died in the first 3-5 globals of a pull....

Only 2 stacks of frailty to primary target? That would be incredibly bad play. Primary target should be over 6 for most of the pull and should only ever be under 4 stacks when the pull just started and you're ramping. Rest of pack will bounce between 2-4 stacks, primary target will be upwards of 8 stacks at times.

VDH which current set bonus is in a very cozy place this season. Open with spikes and fel dev while brand is spreading and frailty is ramping and it's smooth sailing after that unless something bad happens that shouldn't. You say a big pull is dicey without FD available but why the hell would you ever start a big pull without it? It's a 1 min CD even without reduction talent, it is always availible for any non throwaway pull unless you're yolo sending it at the end of pulls which you shouldn't be.

[TbouncerT]

so it sounds like to me, ya'll want EVERY tank to be a hybrid. Can't you all understand that nothing will be 100% balanced? Every time that paladin (mostly Ret and Prot) gets to be good (no matter the degree), this happens. It's no big deal that a BDK can out-heal all the healers, Disc being crap for dps when it's part of their spec while being out-healed and DPS'd by an Evoker and Shaman, Monk, etc. Every class has a 'oooooh' part about them. Do you want spec homogeny again?

I keep forgetting that a lot of posters here are baddies wishing they were in the ~1%, and/or just toxic people.

[kenn9530]

snip

There is not a big gap in the representation, the same names are presented as multiple different teams so half the paladins you see are the same players, paladin has great utility and takes less damage, all its other performance is similar to other tanks, you could buff all other tanks 20% but paladin would still win with its utility since nothing can interupt or provide anywhere near its support as a tank

Paladin doesnt do more damage than other tanks, or does more healing, it just takes a little less damage and gives the team more utility than every other tank in the game including a battle res, why bring a druid tank when paladin is just better, nerfs of buffs wont change how good paladin is.

[Thalrend]

so it sounds like to me, ya'll want EVERY tank to be a hybrid. Can't you all understand that nothing will be 100% balanced? Every time that paladin (mostly Ret and Prot) gets to be good (no matter the degree), this happens. It's no big deal that a BDK can out-heal all the healers, Disc being crap for dps when it's part of their spec while being out-healed and DPS'd by an Evoker and Shaman, Monk, etc. Every class has a 'oooooh' part about them. Do you want spec homogeny again?

I keep forgetting that a lot of posters here are baddies wishing they were in the ~1%, and/or just toxic people.

Dude, if one or 2 specs are s tier and others are A tier sure, I will agree with you. Prot pala atm is SS tier if others are A. This is the problem. This is not a anti fucking paladin post. This spec being shit for aaaa years doesnt mean when it becomes meta it needs to be SSS or some logic like that. If thats the case mages need to be GARBAGE for next 10 years. Same as warlocks.

Prot pala is overtuned at the moment. It needs a nerf OR blizz makes this magical pacth note that gives something to other tanks, which i can say safely that you have better chance of seeing jesus alive front of you right now.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

That website doesn't do what you think it does. It just shows the actual representation of the spec against its success.
If all the people who played Prot Paladin in those keys switched to whatever the second tank is, that tank would then become "S TIER."

Its basically just a popularity contest.
Does not mean any spec needs to be buffed or nerfed.

Keep in mind this season is also perfect for paladin. They heavily counter many of the hardest dungeon mechanics and all of the new affixes.
So unless you plan is to nerf their utility out of existence, you aren't going to be changing the fact that they are being played heavily atm.