Blizzard would be wasting a huge opportunity not letting Murozond wipe out bad lore

[Powerogue]

The only meaningful impact the inclusion of the Draenei had was changing Goldshire ERP on roleplaying servers.

Besides "holy crap dude the draenei were added to the game 16 years ago at some point you have to get over it", really, nothing?



Absolutely nothing. No impact on the lore, those space goats.

[Combatbutler]

They did not take the lands by force wtf are you talking about....it was always established since the tbc retcon that the draenai and orcs lived in peace and that the draenai did not take the lands of the orcs by force...so no you are mistaken there.

They took the land from ogres....... you do know Shatt was built on Goria the old capital of the Ogre empire?

[Palapop]

The humans had actively tried to exterminate them, and their weakened city is isolated and within close distance to a Horde city. How does that not make sense to ally with them?


I don't suppose there's a novel that goes into that? Would be an interesting read.

Humans? Or just 1 general?

[Rozz]

Sometimes owning up to your mistakes if they lead to better things down the line is the better course of action.

It can be worthwhile to recontextualize the past as you go, instead of hatcheting everything at once. Fortunately, most of the lore is in side stories that are half-canon (aka, canon until I say it's suddenly not, or easy to ctrl+alt+del like Medan because it never touched the game).

[Skytotem]

They took the land from ogres....... you do know Shatt was built on Goria the old capital of the Ogre empire?

Goria was abandoned at the time they moved in

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

The whole "cleaning up the timelines" thing is almost as bad as the "it was all just a dream" thing.
Just let what happened be what happened.

Why? There is so much you can achieve with such little effort.

[Combatbutler]

Goria was abandoned at the time they moved in

The ogres were ouraged the moment the draenei settled there and were out for blood, they gathered their strength and eventually tried to take it back, with the Draenei beating them.

It has a lot in common with the high elf amani conflict. Key difference being the draenei are utterly alien to the planet and are not distant cousins to the ogres.

[Ameonna]

They took the land from ogres....... you do know Shatt was built on Goria the old capital of the Ogre empire?

But...Goria was not destroyed by Drainai but by Orcs, and it was abandonned when Drainai arrived, and how dare you mention infos from chronnicles v2 when you claimed game was rectonned from tbc? And you even wrongly quote it, you are clueless or what?!

Why? There is so much you can achieve with such little effort.

Because it is....stupid? I dont know how to say it better, its like you use a bad lore idea to wipe out "bad lore ideases" its just wrong.

The ogres were ouraged the moment the draenei settled there and were out for blood, they gathered their strength and eventually tried to take it back, with the Draenei beating them.

It has a lot in common with the high elf amani conflict. Key difference being the draenei are utterly alien to the planet and are not distant cousins to the ogres.

I dont remember that part, but i will say that : Ho yeah so they had to let them be killed by ogres then? How bad they are not letting themselves be killed over a ruin....

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The ogres were ouraged the MOUMANT the draenei settled there and were out for blood, they gathered their strength and eventually tried to take it back, with the Draenei beating them.

It has a lot in common with the high elf amani conflict. Key difference being the draenei are utterly alien to the planet and are not distant cousins to the ogres.

Lets quote chronnicles v2 about this shwall we : "Shattrath was founded by the draenei led by Velen after their arrival on Draenor, 195 years before the opening of the Dark Portal. They chose the former location of the great ogre city of Goria, destroyed by the orcs two centuries before. The site was protected by mountains, had access to the Zangar Sea, and no other races had settled there after the violent fall of Goria.[1]

100 years before the Dark Portal, the ogre Imperator Hok'lon led a force to Shattrath to reclaim the ruins of Goria."

This mean, the city was destroyed since 200y when the drainai took it and made Shatrath, then when the ogres finally made a move the drainai were there since 95y which mean they finally did a move like 300y after the city was destroyed...what is this?!!! Thats not the "moment" the drainai arrived lol.

[Combatbutler]

But...Goria was not destroyed by Drainai but by Orcs, and it was abandonned when Drainai arrived, and how dare you mention infos from chronnicles v2 when you claimed game was rectonned from tbc? And you even wrongly quote it, you are clueless or what?!


Lets quote chronnicles v2 about this shwall we : "Shattrath was founded by the draenei led by Velen after their arrival on Draenor, 195 years before the opening of the Dark Portal. They chose the former location of the great ogre city of Goria, destroyed by the orcs two centuries before. The site was protected by mountains, had access to the Zangar Sea, and no other races had settled there after the violent fall of Goria.[1]

100 years before the Dark Portal, the ogre Imperator Hok'lon led a force to Shattrath to reclaim the ruins of Goria."

This mean, the city was destroyed since 200y when the drainai took it and made Shatrath, then when the ogres finally made a move the drainai were there since 95y which mean they finally did a move like 300y after the city was destroyed...what is this?!!! Thats not the "moment" the drainai arrived lol.

Did I ever say the Draenei destroyed goria? No I didn't, I said their took the land by force, which is correct. The ogres were pissed the draenei settled there, but did not try to drive them off immediately, because they were skilled and thus took their sweet time to strike to get their stuff back. If you had read the chronicles volume 2 you would know that. The Draenei won that battle handily and told the ogres to fuck off, but you ignore the core problem, since the Draenei were retconned from no longer being natives of draenor as such they have no claim to any land there whatsoever, thus making them colonizers and invaders by default.

They were granted no land by the natives, nor were they welcomed to live among them.


PS watch your tone

[Ameonna]

Did I ever say the Draenei destroyed goria? No I didn't, I said their took the land by force, which is correct. The ogres were pissed the draenei settled there, but did not try to drive them off immediately, because they were skilled and thus took their sweet time to strike to get their stuff back. If you had read the chronicles volume 2 you would know that. The Draenei won that battle handily and told the ogres to fuck off, but you ignore the core problem, since the Draenei were retconned from no longer being natives of draenor as such they have no claim to any land there whatsoever, thus making them colonizers and invaders by default.

They were granted no land by the natives, nor were they welcomed to live among them.


PS watch your tone

But no they did not take it by force, taking by force is not taking a ruin and then fightning for your place once it is built, thats not taking something by force...lets give you the definition from google since you seem to not know what taking by force means : Taking a land over by force : to conquer it : to conquer : overcome and take control of (a place or people) by military force.

So here, the thing is, they did not take over by force, since 1, you dont know if there was a military force, and 2nd the land was empty of any ppl so they did not conquer it since they did not fight over it when they settled, you cant say that they took something by force if no one was over there to fight for it for 100y thats just not how it work...

And no, you cant say that because they are not from the land then they are colonizer by default since no one owned these ruins when they came...

The quesiton i will ask you then, is why if there was no one in this ruin for 200y why didnt the ogres retook at this moment? Just answer me this...like why? They could have took it, it was empty of any ppl for 200y !!!!

And really, you try to just say draenai are bad while you are just being ignorant of the fact that....people migrate!!! people settle in lands owned by other ppl thats just how History is, does it means you are a bad person for settling after an exodus in some ruins? Like come on, its not like conquest of america here >< you just have no measure in what you say its like for you "ppl settling in other land they were not born in? thats colonization and any colonizaiton is bad" but let me teach you that no, not all colonizaiton is bad...migration is an actual thing and its different than conquest.

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They were granted no land by the natives, nor were they welcomed to live among them.

"Yeah you know, Draenai ppl, you are slaughtered and had to flee to avoid getting genocide on you? Ho well too bad, we dont welcome you there, so just get out of there and get killed elsewhere" thats bascially what you are saying there what a good person you are!

Becuase in your logic, better be slaughered than colonize a new land where no one is living...

[Combatbutler]

But no they did not take it by force, taking by force is not taking a ruin and then fightning for your place once it is built, thats not taking something by force...lets give you the definition from google since you seem to not know what taking by force means : Taking a land over by force : to conquer it : to conquer : overcome and take control of (a place or people) by military force.

They did take it by force the moment the natives came calling telling them to leave and they refused. Never forget the draenei are not owed a single scrap of the planet they landed on. In theory if every native on that planet said they deserve to die then by all means that should have been their fate. They are not owed survival on that world, especially since the vast majority of their people was busy cleansing the wider universe of all life.

So here, the thing is, they did not take over by force, since 1, you dont know if there was a military force, and 2nd the land was empty of any ppl so they did not conquer it since they did not fight over it when they settled, you cant say that they took something by force if no one was over there to fight for it for 100y thats just not how it work...

They have zero rights to any scrap of the planet, each and every native has any right to tell them to die in a ditch.

And no, you cant say that because they are not from the land then they are colonizer by default since no one owned these ruins when they came...

Of course I can, the Draenei aren't owed a thing on an alien world, if the natives refuse them, tough luck. The land was still considered by the ogres to be their turf, it trumps anything the Draenei can dish out, simply because they have no right to anything.

The quesiton i will ask you then, is why if there was no one in this ruin for 200y why didnt the ogres retook at this moment? Just answer me this...like why? They could have took it, it was empty of any ppl for 200y !!!!

Because they realizede the draenei posessed better arcane knowledge and thus they prepared and still they did not prepare enough

And really, you try to just say draenai are bad while you are just being ignorant of the fact that....people migrate!!! people settle in lands owned by other ppl thats just how History is, does it means you are a bad person for settling after an exodus in some ruins? Like come on, its not like conquest of america here >< you just have no measure in what you say its like for you "ppl settling in other land they were not born in? thats colonization and any colonizaiton is bad" but let me teach you that no, not all colonizaiton is bad...migration is an actual thing and its different than conquest.

The draenei are parasites and pretty much the most pathetic beings in the entire warcraft franchise in my opninion, their entire society is just downright pathetic, they knew the legion was hot on their heels and they abandoned tdozens if not hundreds of worlds to the legion, never really preparing for conflict with their wayward kin, the mere fact that not each and every last one of them was prepared for battle is enough for me personally to condem their enitre people as a waste of space, they knew better than most what lurked out there and they decided to do pretty much nothing about it.

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"Yeah you know, Draenai ppl, you are slaughtered and had to flee to avoid getting genocide on you? Ho well too bad, we dont welcome you there, so just get out of there and get killed elsewhere" thats bascially what you are saying there what a good person you are!

Indeed I am because the Draenei have proven again and again they don't deserve to live, their species is almost entirely corrupt and has set most of the cosmos up in flames, while this tiny little splinter group decided to hide in a little corner, doing pretty much nothing to prepare to confront their kin. Despite their "prophet" going on about creating a great army to oppose said legion, they didn't do jackshit for pretty much 25k years straight.




So in essence, yes I am saying the dranei deserved to die.

[Shadowferal]

Never forget the draenei are not owed a single scrap of the planet they landed on. In theory if every native on that planet said they deserve to die then by all means that should have been their fate. They are not owed survival on that world, especially since the vast majority of their people was busy cleansing the wider universe of all life.

"Survival" goes to those strong enough to keep it.
Had the Draenei been evil they'd had massacred/enslaved the orcs with their advanced technology.

[Combatbutler]

"Survival" goes to those strong enough to keep it.
Had the Draenei been evil they'd had massacred/enslaved the orcs with their advanced technology.

The draenei are stupid incarante, in the context of what they knew was out there and how they behaved since their flight is is peak idiocy. That is their greatest crime and in the end they were defeated in an all out conflict by the equivalent of cave men on steroids.

The very fact their society still had adult non combatants, despite the fact they knew they were hunted by an immortal army of demons is telling you enough about them.

[Mic_128]

Humans? Or just 1 general?

Seeing how they were locked up in the human city of Dalaran for execution, yes, humans. There's been nothing even hinted at that they might have issues with executing Allies during the middle of war, especially when that includes a former student and prince.

[Palapop]

Seeing how they were locked up in the human city of Dalaran for execution, yes, humans. There's been nothing even hinted at that they might have issues with executing Allies during the middle of war, especially when that includes a former student and prince.

because during war some random a$$ prison guard has authority to question general's decisions.

/clap

[Mic_128]

because during war some random a$$ prison guard has authority to question general's decisions.

/clap

The rulers of Dalaran didn't seem to have any problem with it. They're a bit more important than "some random prison guard"

[Cosmic Janitor]

I think the general issue with retconning stuff that "recently" didn't pan out as well as it "should" have, is that there is almost never a reason to believe the people currently in charge would do a better job. This is pretty much always true. You just trade it in for the latest version of something you may not end up liking. Heck, even if the original creators are at the help again (happens practically never), usually they have changed over the years as well and you get stuff like the star wars prequels, kingdom of the crystal skull (or whatever it was called) or the awful matrix 3. A reimagining/cover like Disturbed's version of The Sound Of Silence is an exception, not the rule (and it's way easier with a single song compared to a whole story/universe) and plenty of people (kretins :P) probably don't like it compared to the original either.

[Le Conceptuel]

They did take it by force the moment the natives came calling telling them to leave and they refused. Never forget the draenei are not owed a single scrap of the planet they landed on. In theory if every native on that planet said they deserve to die then by all means that should have been their fate. They are not owed survival on that world

"Survival" goes to those strong enough to keep it.

Redditors detected

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The very fact their society still had adult non combatants, despite the fact they knew they were hunted by an immortal army of demons is telling you enough about them.

"noooooooooooo they needed to be wholesome Spartarinos. They can't just have noncombatants to provide basic needs Reddit told me that a fundamentally timocratic society always works out nooooooooooooooo what about my Conan the Barbarian copypasta?????"

[Combatbutler]

"noooooooooooo they needed to be wholesome Spartarinos. They can't just have noncombatants to provide basic needs Reddit told me that a fundamentally timocratic society always works out nooooooooooooooo what about my Conan the Barbarian copypasta?????"

All they had to do is teach their nigh immortal civis, how to fight and defend themselves in times of war. So they do not become literal deadweight the moment, the demons come knocking again. But the Draenei did jack shit to prepare for total war and as such I consider them to be an incredibly stupid race, maybe even the worst in the entire WoW franchise, which really means something, but then again they paid the price for their negligence, by being beaten by a bunch of cavemen.

[Jastall]

All they had to do is teach their nigh immortal civis, how to fight and defend themselves in times of war. So they do not become literal deadweight the moment, the demons come knocking again. But the Draenei did jack shit to prepare for total war and as such I consider them to be an incredibly stupid race, maybe even the worst in the entire WoW franchise, which really means something, but then again they paid the price for their negligence, by being beaten by a bunch of cavemen.

Even in the context of fantasy, total war in such a way is completely stupid. The ones making food, arms, armor, vehicles, providing medicine, transports, maintenance, childcare and the myriad other tools and services required for a war effort don't have the time to learn to defend themselves from said immortal 10+ feet tall demons, might very well not be good at it in the first place and thus get in the way, affect the morals of combatants as they visibly get slaughtered and would be wasted sent to any frontline. If you start tossing your skilled personnel like nurses, mechanics and smiths into battle you've already lost. Only stuff like 40K Orks can afford to do that because their entire race is purpose-built for war and they have all kinds of nonsense abilities like respawning from spores or specialists that come complete with genetic knowledge of their crafts.