Cataclysm release date?

[Onikaroshi]

Yeah -- it seemed pretty clear they didn't want the RDF ever, interesting to see them backpedal on that. I kinda feel like RDF doesn't really belong in Classic. I applauded their desire to keep certain QoL aspects out of the game if they feel like it's best for that version of it. /shrug

Honestly they could just keep RDF to lower stuff, specially with H+/H++, keep those out of RDF, but it's really hard to normals or normal heroic now, RDF could really help with that type of stuff, specially leveling dungeons.

[RobertMugabe]

Cata end game :

Arena : regarded as one of the better ones until the last rate released and screwed over the balance
Dungeons : Probably the best release dungeons the game ever had ( just to hard after the easy woltk ones )
Raids : still said to have the best first tier raid content with the 3 released raids , hidden heroic boss fights. Firelands later also is seen a one of the goat raids just not enough diversity and later the Dragonsoul with good fights but dragging to long + bad background design
Bgs : introduced RBG giving bgs a endgame again
Molten Front

Highest player number wow had at its best and still higher then BC and Vanilla at its worst.

If you say Cata enddgame was considered bad. You didnt play durring cata + lack the reading skills to see what people say when talking about what was bad in cata.

Thats like saying Woltk is regarded as having a bad end game cause how easy Naxx was

I have played through all of Cata and I remember the player perception back then to be very different than what you're describing.
Several of the dungeons added initially were disliked, not necessarily due to their difficulty, but because a lot of them were bugged AND a lot of them were simply boring. Half of them were really challenging and good, but the other half was just a POS.

The first raid tier: I remember that one actually very well. It was a shitshow with most fights being bugged and also being very boring. Some Bastion of Twilight bosses + Nefarian were good, but the rest was shit (Sinestra was the only heroic-only fight, so not hidden heroic boss fightS). The entire raid felt like a huge disappointment after ICC + Ulduar.

The revamped troll dungeons (previously raids) were pretty good, but they were controversial af as their loot invalided a lot of the raiding gear and later on every tank would leave the ZG dungeon queue after killing the raptor-mount boss so after 4.1 it was near impossible to just get ZG done lol.

Firelands was a good raid (nowhere as good as, once again, ICC + Ulduar), but very small (think it almost had the same number of bosses as TOC) and thus we were in the middle of a content drought just months after the expansion came out. The Molten Front on the other hand was just pure garbage, I am surprised you'd even mention it as a positive (could've listed Tol Barad then too).

The Dragon Soul patch was obviously a poorly received patch back then, but ironically it wasn't as bad as people make it out be nowadays, like how everyone nowadays is saying that Cata was a great expac until Dragon Soul and LFR ruined it lol. Like no, that's really not how things were back then and on this forum. 4.3 was actually perceived as a content rich patch, just too late and not good enough to "save" Cata with adding 3 new dungeons (2 were good), the Darkmoon Faire and fixing a lot of the bugs, boss balance, making 60-80 leveling faster/easier etc.

The DS patch released at a point where the "WoW Community" was already really tired of Blizzard (this was around the time when MoP was announced which wasn't well received at all initially, despite it later being one of the best expansions ever) and the whole game, it wasn't because of the patch specifically and what it added specifically, at least not initially. The whole "drama" with Cata and how it was "declared" the worst WoW's ever been happened during 4.1 and 4.2 (especially 4.2.2 when TotalBiscuit, back then the biggest WoW Youtuber, infamously quit playing WoW because of the dungeon nerfs). Of course, after time everyone got really tired of DS and all the exploits and toxicity surrounding LFR (like people needing on tier tokens to sell them for gold).

Personally, I have enjoyed Cata and I was never a WoW hater, but it did definitely just feel like a lackluster expansion and a "weaker" Wrath 2.0 in most ways. I do however think that it wasn't Cata's "fault" that WoW was losing subs, but it was because the MMO market was filled with new games at this point and because of the shift in gaming, where old players and new players would've moved to other genres. I for example "lost" a lot of WoW-friends to League of Legends.


PVP in general was pretty good though, I agree. DK's were unkillable and rogues were OP throughout the whole expansion (RIP Reckful), but overall it was still a very good time pvp-wise, I'd say it was a lot better than Wrath and MOST other expansions.

[Relapses]

Honestly they could just keep RDF to lower stuff, specially with H+/H++, keep those out of RDF, but it's really hard to normals or normal heroic now, RDF could really help with that type of stuff, specially leveling dungeons.

Oh yeah, it'd be great. I just kind of always felt it was something that felt like it was a "modern WoW" feature which is why the answer was no.

[Onikaroshi]

Oh yeah, it'd be great. I just kind of always felt it was something that felt like it was a "modern WoW" feature which is why the answer was no.

Now that the token is there, i don't think blizzard has a leg to stand on with qol features lol, probably why they are backtracking

[Relapses]

Now that the token is there, i don't think blizzard has a leg to stand on with qol features lol, probably why they are backtracking

I don't see the two as contradictory myself. Blizzard can have a vision for Classic which doesn't include the RDF while also adding the token because it was an inevitable solution to the ever-increasing issue of botted gold in the game. If they're backtracking on the RDF as a concession because of the token then that feels a bit revisionist, especially if they're insisting they always meant to add the RDF in ICC anyway.

[craigw]

Truth is, aside from the old world, wotlk has more in common with retail than it has with vanilla.

you wont get most to admit that. in fact WOLK and CATA are nearly identical in design. dailies thru new content, valor, heroic dungeons gaining rep thru a tabard, easily acquired epic gear thru rep grinding dungeons, tanks easily hold threat, massive pulls due to gear inflation, firelands content=argent tourney content.(grind dailies for currency you spend in the zone), good raids, dungeons were harder in cata till nerf, dungeons had better design layout in cata, pvp was virtually identical, tol barad was fun as fuck and was an expanded upon wintergrasp. WRATH started the LFG tool, cata expanded upon it and took it to LFR. both have catch up mechnics for alts, again the wrath fanboys wont admit it, but the game desgin is nearly identical.

[Onikaroshi]

I don't see the two as contradictory myself. Blizzard can have a vision for Classic which doesn't include the RDF while also adding the token because it was an inevitable solution to the ever-increasing issue of botted gold in the game. If they're backtracking on the RDF as a concession because of the token then that feels a bit revisionist, especially if they're insisting they always meant to add the RDF in ICC anyway.

You're probably right on they ALWAYS intended to release it during ICC internally, but externally wanted to make it look like there was no plans.

- - - Updated - - -

you wont get most to admit that. in fact WOLK and CATA are nearly identical in design. dailies thru new content, valor, heroic dungeons gaining rep thru a tabard, easily acquired epic gear thru rep grinding dungeons, tanks easily hold threat, massive pulls due to gear inflation, firelands content=argent tourney content.(grind dailies for currency you spend in the zone), good raids, dungeons were harder in cata till nerf, dungeons had better design layout in cata, pvp was virtually identical, tol barad was fun as fuck and was an expanded upon wintergrasp. WRATH started the LFG tool, cata expanded upon it and took it to LFR. both have catch up mechnics for alts, again the wrath fanboys wont admit it, but the game desgin is nearly identical.

I just enjoy the class gameplay from wrath-mop, which they ruined starting in wod

[koltec]

Personally, I think Blizzard should revise their management of Classic before releasing any other things (regarding classic).

Empty dead WOTLK and stubbornly not having the dungeon finder tool
SOM which has been locked for some time, impossible to play Vanilla day
Impossible to play Classic TBC
Giving importance to a hardcore minority thinking they are going to save the franchise


It is to believe that Microsoft want to let Classic die voluntarily and they want to push people back to private servers

technically until ICC comes to live LFD is not missing it was never introduced till then to begin with..

[Segus1992]

you wont get most to admit that. in fact WOLK and CATA are nearly identical in design. dailies thru new content, valor, heroic dungeons gaining rep thru a tabard, easily acquired epic gear thru rep grinding dungeons, tanks easily hold threat, massive pulls due to gear inflation, firelands content=argent tourney content.(grind dailies for currency you spend in the zone), good raids, dungeons were harder in cata till nerf, dungeons had better design layout in cata, pvp was virtually identical, tol barad was fun as fuck and was an expanded upon wintergrasp. WRATH started the LFG tool, cata expanded upon it and took it to LFR. both have catch up mechnics for alts, again the wrath fanboys wont admit it, but the game desgin is nearly identical.

I never see Cata be hated because it's too different from Wrath in broad design aspects, but rather because of what it brought to the game. Most people agree raids were good except Dragon Soul, gameplay was good (though tank damage was whack) etc, the problems with Cata is generally because it removed the old world everyone knew and made it more streamlined, LFR, transmog, talent rework, etc.

Just because RDF came with Wrath doesn't mean that's a feature that's liked in isolation.

[rarhyx]

I just enjoy the class gameplay from wrath-mop, which they ruined starting in wod

did you play paladin in cata?
thats' the worst they have done, ret is unplaybalefrom cata till legion prepatch

[kranur]

I don't see the two as contradictory myself. Blizzard can have a vision for Classic which doesn't include the RDF while also adding the token because it was an inevitable solution to the ever-increasing issue of botted gold in the game. If they're backtracking on the RDF as a concession because of the token then that feels a bit revisionist, especially if they're insisting they always meant to add the RDF in ICC anyway.

They don't have to pretend it was always planned especially since they said they don't want to add it. They can just say "Hey guys, we didn't want to add it initially but since we've added H+ it's become a pain to filter through groups and harder to find groups for the regular heroics, so here you go, RDF for all dungeons except H+".
Not sure how things are now, but I assume it sucks to form/find a group for a regular heroic.

[Onikaroshi]

did you play paladin in cata?
thats' the worst they have done, ret is unplaybalefrom cata till legion prepatch

Not paladin, but i know a lot of people who did and enjoyed it.

Surv hunter, demo lock, warrior, monk in mop, bunch of others, all /chefkiss

[saixilein]

Here's your reason. You are biased towards Cata because it's your nostalgic expansion. I don't personally hate Cata, but a lot of the changes are negatives (the world revamp made the world much more of a theme park, flying everywhere is a big negative, talents were the worst they've ever been, and LFR & transmog) and the good of the expansion doesn't weigh up for those.

Only points i aggree with is the Flying in Cata - but Talents were fun, cant remember a single spec i hated with 4.0 release, they all made much more fun then in cata + LFR was a killer. And ofc i played some classic/tbc private server, before i joined Retail WOTLK, but talents back then wasnt really that good. Most of the time u autoattack, no fun mechanics or rotation, just press 2-3 buttons and do damage. Frost mages who just spam Blizzard or Frostbolt, Tanks who had 3 DPS Spells + Migation... not so fun. (for me).

And i have really hard nostalgia feels to wotlk aswell, especially the people i met at this time.

But overall cata got more hate then its deserved.

[Gimlix]

No, they really don't.

Cataclysm onwards was the beginning of modern WoW now - Classic is literally the old world of Classic - Wrath.

What made Cataclysm more modern? Don't say the world revamp because we are already due for a 2.0 world revamp.

[Segus1992]

Only points i aggree with is the Flying in Cata - but Talents were fun, cant remember a single spec i hated with 4.0 release, they all made much more fun then in cata + LFR was a killer. And ofc i played some classic/tbc private server, before i joined Retail WOTLK, but talents back then wasnt really that good. Most of the time u autoattack, no fun mechanics or rotation, just press 2-3 buttons and do damage. Frost mages who just spam Blizzard or Frostbolt, Tanks who had 3 DPS Spells + Migation... not so fun. (for me).

And i have really hard nostalgia feels to wotlk aswell, especially the people i met at this time.

But overall cata got more hate then its deserved.

Difference between gameplay and talent system - the talent system is customization. Gameplay in Cata was good, customization was not.

[Khaza-R]

What made Cataclysm more modern? Don't say the world revamp because we are already due for a 2.0 world revamp.

Masteries and forced specs, class homogenization, stat normalization, weapon skills, reagents, soul shards, ammo, pet hapiness, etc.

Seriously the Cata is just WotLK 2.0 take is so fucking disingenuine its wild.

[Gimlix]

Masteries and forced specs, class homogenization, stat normalization, weapon skills, reagents, soul shards, ammo, pet hapiness, etc.

Seriously the Cata is just WotLK 2.0 take is so fucking disingenuine its wild.

Saying cataclysm content is still the mainstream game is so damn delusional. Almost nothing from Cataclysm is still relevant today.
Cataclysm is closer to WOTLK then Cataclysm is closer to Dragonflight but mkay.

[Khaza-R]

Saying cataclysm content is still the mainstream game is so damn delusional. Almost nothing from Cataclysm is still relevant today.
Cataclysm is closer to WOTLK then Cataclysm is closer to Dragonflight but mkay.

That's neither the argument you were originally quoted for or what anyone is even arguing in this thread. Don't try to flop on your point just because you don't know what you're talking about to begin with.

[Gimlix]

That's neither the argument you were originally quoted for or what anyone is even arguing in this thread. Don't try to flop on your point just because you don't know what you're talking about to begin with.

Most of these things already started in WOTLK though.. also saying Cataclysm is same stuff we have to do is totally wrong and you know it.

[The Saar]

Do people really want Cata classic lmao? I really hope they stop at wotlk and focus on classic era 2.0 instead! Would be so much cooler if they do it right!