Crypt Lord class now possible thanks to Dracthyr Evokers?

[Teriz]

DK's aren't doing anything that Paladins would do. They don't encroach on their design at all.

Of course not, because they have none of their abilities. Replace the DKs unholy theme with a holy one, and the DK will overlap completely with the Paladin class. What makes them so different? Their abilities, which is the same case with my Crypt Lord concept.

Paladins wouldn't ever use Unholy magic, so a DK doesn't overlap.

And Druids will never get the abilities of Elereth Renferal, The Crypt Lord, or Empress Shak'Zara.

Would a Druid plausibly use Insect forms and turn into Spiders or insects? Yes they would. There isn't a case where multiple Druids with Tank specs would be necessary when a mere cosmetic would satisfy that fantasy.

Which means nothing if they don't have the abilities. My money is on them never getting such forms because the Druid's abilities simply don't line up thematically.

Much in the way a Dark Ranger could be a dark version of a Hunter Class, but I'm sure you would see how that isn't necessary. A cosmetic option satisfies that fine even without the majority of Dark Ranger abilities available. Same as a Druid missing a majority of any Crypt Lord abilities isn't gonna greatly change the core gameplay of a Creature-based Tank.

The difference is that there was never a large number of Dark Ranger abilities that simply didn't fit the Hunter class. Even the Dark Ranger NPCs were essentially using Hunter abilities with Wailing Arrow or a random shadow ability. Blizzard further muddied the waters when they made Nathanos a Dark Ranger when he was the Forsaken Hunter trainer, and they placed Dark Rangers in the Hunter class hall.

I didn't see any Crypt Lords in the Dreamgrove.

[Triceron]

Of course not, because they have none of their abilities. Replace the DKs unholy theme with a holy one, and the DK will overlap completely with the Paladin class. What makes them so different? Their abilities, which is the same case with my Crypt Lord concept.

I completely disagree.

We actually have this very overlap with Paladin and Priest. Both use Holy but they DO NOT overlap, because their concepts come from a different basis.

If you make DK holy, what do you have?

A Holy Melee Summoner
A Holy self-sustain Tank with strong anti-magic
A Holy Dual Wield DPS

These are all very different from all Paladin specs.

And Druids will never get the abilities of Elereth Renferal, The Crypt Lord, or Empress Shak'Zara.

They don't need them to represent them.

Hunters will never get Possession or Haunting Wave. Would you not call them a Dark Ranger on this basis of missing abilities?

Druid has zero Druid of the Flame abilities, and can still represent a Druid of the Flame simply by having a flame cat form. Make sense?

I didn't see any Crypt Lords in the Dreamgrove.

I didn't see any Fel Werebears and Flame cats there either.

Were there many dinosaurs and drust there either?

[Teriz]

I completely disagree.

We actually have this very overlap with Paladin and Priest. Both use Holy but they DO NOT overlap, because their concepts come from a different basis.

If you make DK holy, what do you have?

A Holy Melee Summoner
A Holy self-sustain Tank with strong anti-magic
A Holy Dual Wield DPS

These are all very different from all Paladin specs.

2 would be different variations of Retribution, and the tank would be variation on protection. If the summoning spec is summoning Guardians of the Ancient Kings, then what's the difference? You would essentially have 6 Paladin specs spread over 2 classes.

The reason Priests don't overlap with Paladin is because the Priest doesn't use armor and weapon based holy magic and the have a Shadow magic spec. Both Paladins and DKs do use weapon and armor based magic for their abilities, so yes there would be significant overlap if the DK was a pure holy magic using class. Also Frost DW is option, you can go with 2H frost these days.

They don't need them to represent them.

And if players want to play as them? Are they simply SOL?

Hunters will never get Possession or Haunting Wave. Would you not call them a Dark Ranger on this basis of missing abilities?

Because all Dark Rangers weren't banshees like Sylvanas. Blizzard established that Sylvanas was unique and one of a kind.

Druid has zero Druid of the Flame abilities, and can still represent a Druid of the Flame simply by having a flame cat form. Make sense?

They don't represent Druid of the flame at all. It's just a cosmetic.

I didn't see any Fel Werebears and Flame cats there either.

I'm pretty sure neither one of those are actually lore based. As in, our character via lore actually doesn't have either of those abilities. Lorewise if we were to use Druid of the Flame abilities, we'd be eliminated.

Were there many dinosaurs and drust there either?

That was before BFA.

[Triceron]

2 would be different variations of Retribution, and the tank would be variation on protection. If the summoning spec is summoning Guardians of the Ancient Kings, then what's the difference? You would essentially have 6 Paladin specs spread over 2 classes.

The reason Priests don't overlap with Paladin is because the Priest doesn't use armor and weapon based holy magic and the have a Shadow magic spec. Both Paladins and DKs do use weapon and armor based magic for their abilities, so yes there would be significant overlap if the DK was a pure holy magic using class. Also Frost DW is option, you can go with 2H frost these days.

But you're supposing one doing the exact same as the other would be the exact same. And that's not true of a DK nor a Priest.

If Priest had all Holy specs it still wouldn't be a Paladin. Nor would a DK with Holy, since they operate on completely different concepts.

And on top of that, a DK revolves around Runes, which is still a functionally different mechanic from Holy Power and Mana. Their entire concepts are different even despitr similarities you point out, and aren't much more different than if you said Holy Paladin waa similar to Holy Priest and said the differences don't matter Priest is just a Cloth Paladin if it didn't have Shadow spec.

And if players want to play as them? Are they simply SOL?

They're SOL right now.

Having anything is better than nothing

Because all Dark Rangers weren't banshees like Sylvanas. Blizzard established that Sylvanas was unique and one of a kind.

HOTS presents an opportunity for Dark Rangers as a class be former Banshees. Just like you're positing that Crypt Lords would be singularly possible as their own race because of Dracthyr. What's the difference?

I can tell you what. Bias. That's what. Double standards against concepts you don't see happening.

They don't represent Druid of the flame at all. It's just a cosmetic.

Sure they do. They allow anyone to roleplay as a Druid of the Flame. That is representation.

Same as Werebears representing... Playable Werebears. That's why we have customizations.

I'm pretty sure neither one of those are actually lore based. As in, our character via lore actually doesn't have either of those abilities. Lorewise if we were to use Druid of the Flame abilities, we'd be eliminated.

Like I said, they don't have to be.

Customizations aren't lore, but they still represent playable characters, heros and units. It represents what is possible for your character to become. It does not need to abide to lore, but it is still representation.

Just like the Trading Post Guardians of Tirisfal set will represent Medivh and the Guardian of tirisfal. It isn't lore, it is still representation. It allows one to roleplay as a Guardian.

I could same the same of Druid Travel form Glyphs from Cheetah to Stag form. There is no lore behind the glyph, it still represents what Druids are capable of becoming.


Why would you want to argue against customizations when there's zero downside to having them?

[Ielenia]

Argument 1: the importance of metamorphosis in the DH class.

Argument 2: making your DK play like a Necromancer.

Two entirely different conversations.

And in the crux of both is the exact same issue: "doing optimal damage". You cannot say "you need to do optimal damage" on the first and "you don't have to do optimal damage" on the second.

Just because DHs do shapeshifting differently than Druids doesn’t mean that Shapeshifting isn’t an important part of the DH class. It’s a class where a huge part of its gameplay is transforming into a demon.

"Transforming into a demon" is its theme. But for gameplay it's really not that important, considering that, again, you can perform the entire DH rotation without ever touching the Metamorphosis spell button. But you cannot do that with the Guardian and Feral druid.

Once again, two completely different arguments that have nothing to do with each other.

Argument 1: WoW races getting lore changes and retcons before they’re playable.

Argument 2: Forsaken getting an exclusive Druid form.

Nothing to do with each other. I have no idea why you’re equating them.

Once again, the issue is the very exact same: what Blizzard can and cannot do. You cannot say "Blizzard can do whatever they want" to one while in the same breath saying Blizzard has their hands tied and can't do what they want on the other.

What does that have to do with Ghost Wolf sharing Druid mechanics (and a bit of its theme)?

It evidences that the shaman does not "share druid mechanics" because you can't fight in ghost wolf form.

I never said they can’t do it, I did say they won’t do it.

And it's a fact you're wrong in making that assertion because you don't know what they will or won't do. If Blizzard wants to do it, they will. And you saying "they won't do it" won't stop them.

Again, the possible expansion was in the OP, so it’s part of the conversation.

No, it's not. It was beyond clear that we were addressing your race/class combo exclusively.

- - - Updated - - -

A reskinned Arrakoa. Whoop dee do.

And forsaken druids would use a reskinned nerubian model. Done.

Nope, since the werebear is a class wide option.

And the Zandalari druid's Balance form is exclusive to the race.

[Teriz]

But you're supposing one doing the exact same as the other would be the exact same. And that's not true of a DK nor a Priest.

If Priest had all Holy specs it still wouldn't be a Paladin. Nor would a DK with Holy, since they operate on completely different concepts.

Priest no, because it's a spell caster. DK yes, because it is a heavily armored melee class that utilizes weapon and armor abilities, just like the Paladin.

And on top of that, a DK revolves around Runes, which is still a functionally different mechanic from Holy Power and Mana. Their entire concepts are different even despitr similarities you point out, and aren't much more different than if you said Holy Paladin waa similar to Holy Priest and said the differences don't matter Priest is just a Cloth Paladin if it didn't have Shadow spec.

See above. DKs are heavily armored melee fighters just like Paladins. Their main difference is their vastly opposing thematics. Give them the same theme and you have two very similar classes.

They're SOL right now.

I'm talking about forever. If people want to play as something more akin to Elereth Renferal, and there's plenty of open design space to do it, shouldn't that concept be represented?

Having anything is better than nothing

Having a form is next to nothing. Ask DH players. They had bare chested NE Rogues with the Warglaives and the blindfold, and they still wanted Demon Hunters. Why? Because simply resembling it isn't enough.

HOTS presents an opportunity for Dark Rangers as a class be former Banshees. Just like you're positing that Crypt Lords would be singularly possible as their own race because of Dracthyr. What's the difference?

Again, Blizzard established that Sylvanas' situation was unique long ago, so no matter happened in HotS, you were only going to get one Sylvanas.

We've encountered multiple Crypt Lords and spider kings in WoW, so clearly Anub 'Arak isn't unique. Further, the class concept I introduced is about Nerubians invoking the ancient Spider kings to their aid, so all we need is a group of magically adept Nerubians, which isn't a problem.

I can tell you what. Bias. That's what. Double standards against concepts you don't see happening.

Uh it's not biased. Blizzard made it clear that Sylvanas' type of DR was one of a kind and not reproducible, and that DRs were just undead hunters, so there was never going to be a DR class.

Sure they do. They allow anyone to roleplay as a Druid of the Flame. That is representation.

Same as Werebears representing... Playable Werebears. That's why we have customizations.

What if someone wants to ACTUALLY play as a Druid of the Flame? As in, doing what actual DoF's did in Cataclysm? Are they SOL too?

Like I said, they don't have to be.
Customizations aren't lore, but they still represent playable characters, heros and units. It represents what is possible for your character to become. It does not need to abide to lore, but it is still representation.

Just like the Trading Post Guardians of Tirisfal set will represent Medivh and the Guardian of tirisfal. It isn't lore, it is still representation. It allows one to roleplay as a Guardian.

I could same the same of Druid Travel form Glyphs from Cheetah to Stag form. There is no lore behind the glyph, it still represents what Druids are capable of becoming.

Why would you want to argue against customizations when there's zero downside to having them?

There's a huge downside to customizations if they lack the actual gameplay associated with them. If a player gets Renferal's spider form yet none of the abilities that made that form interesting, what's the point?

- - - Updated - - -

And in the crux of both is the exact same issue: "doing optimal damage". You cannot say "you need to do optimal damage" on the first and "you don't have to do optimal damage" on the second.

That has literally nothing to do with the topic at hand, which is Shapeshifting.

"Transforming into a demon" is its theme. But for gameplay it's really not that important, considering that, again, you can perform the entire DH rotation without ever touching the Metamorphosis spell button. But you cannot do that with the Guardian and Feral druid.

I've viewed multiple DH rotations and they all include Metamorphosis, and pretty much every guide says use meta on cooldown. Not to mention you have another rotational ability, Eyebeam which transforms you into your demon form outside of the standard meta cooldown. And that's just the damage spec.

Once again, the issue is the very exact same: what Blizzard can and cannot do. You cannot say "Blizzard can do whatever they want" to one while in the same breath saying Blizzard has their hands tied and can't do what they want on the other.

And again we're talking about two completely different things....

It evidences that the shaman does not "share druid mechanics" because you can't fight in ghost wolf form.

If you can auto attack and use offensive abilities, you're fighting in GW form. Also Shaman press the GW button and they turn into a wolf with various passives in place. That's exactly the same process of what Druids do when they enter their forms.

And it's a fact you're wrong in making that assertion because you don't know what they will or won't do. If Blizzard wants to do it, they will. And you saying "they won't do it" won't stop them.

Okay, enjoy your wait for that new Forsaken druid form then.

No, it's not. It was beyond clear that we were addressing your race/class combo exclusively.

Why would you address the race/combo exclusively when its validity rests completely on a similarly themed expansion?

[Triceron]

I'm talking about forever. If people want to play as something more akin to Elereth Renferal, and there's plenty of open design space to do it, shouldn't that concept be represented?

Just because you think there is open design space doesn't mean much. So do Bards, so do Dark Rangers, so do Necromancers. And they all may or may not ever happen.

Everyone who wants these classes to be playable right now are SOL. And if we're talking Forever, then that's a hypothetical that affects any and all future classes regardless of how much design space is open, because Blizzard can always opt to have the Evoker be the last class WoW ever gets, and none of us have any control over that.

So what question are you really asking me here? Are you trying to convince me that a class with open design space is likely to be made and less likely to be SOL? I don't agree, since Tinker has far more design space than Demon Hunters and we can see which one is still currently SOL. It's not a very convincing argument.

Having a form is next to nothing. Ask DH players. They had bare chested NE Rogues with the Warglaives and the blindfold, and they still wanted Demon Hunters. Why? Because simply resembling it isn't enough.

I agree

But HAVING Warglaives and HAVING Metamorphosis were still better than not having them. At the very least, it gave players customization.

The only real problem was they locked away Legendaries from having any transmog. If they allowed the transmog earlier, I'd argue that representation was satisfactory.

And to be honest, we HAVE Demon Hunters and people like you aren't even satisfied because it lacks a 3rd spec, so the complaints don't really ever stop period. We can have the class and people would still complain that there isn't complete enough. Go figure.

We've encountered multiple Crypt Lords and spider kings in WoW, so clearly Anub 'Arak isn't unique. Further, the class concept I introduced is about Nerubians invoking the ancient Spider kings to their aid, so all we need is a group of magically adept Nerubians, which isn't a problem.

Your concept was A: Spellcaster who turns into Humanoid/Crypt Lord or B: Druid who turns into Humanoid/Crypt Lord. There isn't a lot of nuance for being a fresh new class there.

Uh it's not biased. Blizzard made it clear that Sylvanas' type of DR was one of a kind and not reproducible, and that DRs were just undead hunters, so there was never going to be a DR class.

Which IS a bias, because we've encountered multiple Dark Rangers who were also formerly Banshees as well. What do you think happened to Sylvanas' Banshee followers in WC3? What do you think was the origin of the multiple Dark Ranger heroes in WC3 that were carried into WoW?

The only difference is none of them had been displayed using Banshee abilities, which could easily be expanded on. Just like no Demon Hunter displayed Horns or Wings until Legion expanded on that and showed us that Illidan wasn't the only unique one who had them.

All you're illustrating here is a bias, because you're choosing to view Sylvanas as a unique character despite us having evidence of Blizzard expanding on concepts for Heroes and tapping into unique heroes to do so. You're purposefully ignoring Illidan's connection to the Demon Hunters to make your point about Crypt Lords. We both know you're aware of this because this very topic has been discussed ad-nauseum, with these very examples having been brought up too many times.

What if someone wants to ACTUALLY play as a Druid of the Flame? As in, doing what actual DoF's did in Cataclysm? Are they SOL too?

Do you honestly think they ought to be a separate playable class? I'd like to hear your reasoning here.

There's a huge downside to customizations if they lack the actual gameplay associated with them. If a player gets Renferal's spider form yet none of the abilities that made that form interesting, what's the point?

You'd get the customization option and are capable of RPing as a Nightmare Spider.

Same as us having Fel Werebear form. Can you please tell me what the purpose of it is if we don't have Fel abilities that go with it? Are we to assume that everyone who has obtained that form are unsatisfied with what they have?

[Teriz]

Just because you think there is open design space doesn't mean much. So do Bards, so do Dark Rangers, so do Necromancers. And they all may or may not ever happen.

Dark Rangers are taken up by Hunters, Necromancers are taken up by Death Knights. No class is currently carrying the theme from Crypt Lords or Renferal.

Everyone who wants these classes to be playable right now are SOL. And if we're talking Forever, then that's a hypothetical that affects any and all future classes regardless of how much design space is open, because Blizzard can always opt to have the Evoker be the last class WoW ever gets, and none of us have any control over that.

So what question are you really asking me here? Are you trying to convince me that a class with open design space is likely to be made and less likely to be SOL? I don't agree, since Tinker has far more design space than Demon Hunters and we can see which one is still currently SOL. It's not a very convincing argument.

You're saying it's not needed, so I'm asking you if there are players who desire that concept in playable form, should they just get the middle finger? Conversely, is the concept needed because people want it?

I agree

But HAVING Warglaives and HAVING Metamorphosis were still better than not having them. At the very least, it gave players customization.

The only real problem was they locked away Legendaries from having any transmog. If they allowed the transmog earlier, I'd argue that representation was satisfactory.

And to be honest, we HAVE Demon Hunters and people like you aren't even satisfied because it lacks a 3rd spec, so the complaints don't really ever stop period. We can have the class and people would still complain that there isn't complete enough. Go figure.

I never wanted a DH class in the first place, so it could have dozens of specs, and I will always feel that it shouldn't be playable. That said, I recognize that it was a needed class, since there was so much demand for it, and the fanbase wouldn't be satisfied with a customization option.

Your concept was A: Spellcaster who turns into Humanoid/Crypt Lord or B: Druid who turns into Humanoid/Crypt Lord. There isn't a lot of nuance for being a fresh new class there.

That was the first draft. I've refined the concept since then, but its still a WIP.

Which IS a bias, because we've encountered multiple Dark Rangers who were also formerly Banshees as well. What do you think happened to Sylvanas' Banshee followers in WC3? What do you think was the origin of the multiple Dark Ranger heroes in WC3 that were carried into WoW?

They were retconned and just made into undead hunters.

The only difference is none of them had been displayed using Banshee abilities, which could easily be expanded on. Just like no Demon Hunter displayed Horns or Wings until Legion expanded on that and showed us that Illidan wasn't the only unique one who had them.

The big difference is that we had multiple demon hunters using Metamorphosis, showing that Illidan was capable of reproducing DHs like himself. Sylvanas on the other hand produced undead Hunters and Wardens. One leads to a class, the other leads to a costume option.

Do you honestly think they ought to be a separate playable class? I'd like to hear your reasoning here.

Of course not. I'm asking you if you honestly believe that getting a form is equal to getting the form + abilities? Clearly it's not. Now, the issue with Druids of the Flame is that there's no path towards a playable form for them, but that isn't the case with Crypt Lords who could make the Spider and Scorpion Druid forms actually playable with abilities.

You'd get the customization option and are capable of RPing as a Nightmare Spider.

Same as us having Fel Werebear form. Can you please tell me what the purpose of it is if we don't have Fel abilities that go with it? Are we to assume that everyone who has obtained that form are unsatisfied with what they have?

Renferal is a lore character, the werebear is not, and no Druid player expects to be were bear with Fel abilites. However, there are players who encountered Renferal and thought her abilities were cool. You give them the form and they're going to expect those associated abilities to be a part of it. They don't get those, they're disappointed and probably won't play it the form because it's ultimately pointless. That's the difference.

[Triceron]

You're saying it's not needed, so I'm asking you if there are players who desire that concept in playable form, should they just get the middle finger? Conversely, is the concept needed because people want it?

Where is the demand for it coming from?

Aside from Golden Yak's concept and your own concept generally getting 'Cool concept, thumbs up' responses, where is the actual demand for playable Crypt Lords coming from?

I've literally not heard anyone in any class thread say they want a playable Crypt Lord class over any other class concept, if this is what we're talking about. It's never been polled, it's never been expressedly demanded, and you admit it's only something you just happened to consider yourself after Dracthyr became playable.


What is driving this desire for playable Crypt Lords? Because of Warcraft 3? Because of HOTS? Because of Golden Yak's Azjol Nerub concept? Let's face it, we're talking about your desires, based on what you've convinced yourself to be plausible. I don't see anyone else really sharing a desire to burrow charge and impale and shoot webs. People are just agreeing that it'd be a neat concept, one that's likely never to happen.


If we're talking about a class concept that is literally appealing to literally a couple people, then I don't think it's worth fussing over not being playable.

I can confidently say the same over some people's expressed interest in a Nightwarrior/POTM concept. There's literally no significant demand for a Nightwarrior Class outside of the one or two people who seem hyper-fanatic about them on this board. I wouldn't worry myself over such a minority.

[Teriz]

Where is the demand for it coming from?

Aside from Golden Yak's concept and your own concept generally getting 'Cool concept, thumbs up' responses, where is the actual demand for playable Crypt Lords coming from?

I've literally not heard anyone in any class thread say they want a playable Crypt Lord class over any other class concept, if this is what we're talking about. It's never been polled, it's never been expressedly demanded, and you admit it's only something you just happened to consider yourself after Dracthyr became playable.

Because up until we got Dracthyr Evokers, the concept of a Crypt Lord class wouldn’t make sense, so it was never suggested. Now thanks to dracthyr introducing the idea of race/class combos “monster” race/classes are now possible.

What is driving this desire for playable Crypt Lords? Because of Warcraft 3? Because of HOTS? Because of Golden Yak's Azjol Nerub concept? Let's face it, we're talking about your desires, based on what you've convinced yourself to be plausible. I don't see anyone else really sharing a desire to burrow charge and impale and shoot webs. People are just agreeing that it'd be a neat concept, one that's likely never to happen.

If you look at the forums, plenty of posters want to play as Druids of the Nightmare (because that was more plausible than a Crypt Lord class until Evokers). The Crypt Lord concept is also along those lines. People want to play as such Dark creatures.

Crypt Lord class is the most efficient way to make it a reality.

[Triceron]

If you look at the forums, plenty of posters want to play as Druids of the Nightmare (because that was more plausible than a Crypt Lord class until Evokers). The Crypt Lord concept is also along those lines. People want to play as such Dark creatures.

Crypt Lord class is the most efficient way to make it a reality.

You even admit a Druid of the Nightmare has no direct connection to Crypt Lords though.

That means people who are demanding Druid of the Nightmare on forums aren't talking about playable Crypt Lords. Even if you see it as a solution to the Druid of the Nightmare, the fact remains that there is no significant demand for a Crypt Lord class, because a Druid of the Nightmare is neither a Nerubian or a Crypt Lord.

If you want to present a Druid of the Nightmare class concept that has a Crypt Lord spec to it, perhaps we should start a new thread?

I would find more merit in that idea than I would this one, if it matters to you at all. Otherwise I can say I won't be losing any sleep over all the two Crypt Lord class fans who might not ever get their desires made real.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The developers (who wrote the lore) view things differently.

They don't.

We know from the Sylvanas novel that she didn’t order the wrath gate or know any thing about it. She ordered them to make the plague and keep an eye out for an opportunity to use it but was never informed on the plan to use it on the wrath gate and when she found out thought it wasn’t an awful time to do so.

[Teriz]

You even admit a Druid of the Nightmare has no direct connection to Crypt Lords though.

That means people who are demanding Druid of the Nightmare on forums aren't talking about playable Crypt Lords. Even if you see it as a solution to the Druid of the Nightmare, the fact remains that there is no significant demand for a Crypt Lord class, because a Druid of the Nightmare is neither a Nerubian or a Crypt Lord.

They wanted a Druid of the Nightmare because before Evokers people didn't see a method to bringing the Crypt Lord in as a class. If you merge the concepts together, you create a viable class concept because Crypt Lords and Nerubians are capable of being a race/class separate from the Druid class while still being able to borrow their mechanics and give players who want a Druid of the Nightmare concept the best alternative (in some ways even better).

If you want to present a Druid of the Nightmare class concept that has a Crypt Lord spec to it, perhaps we should start a new thread?

Druid of the Nightmare simply doesn't work as a class concept for a host of reasons, however a Crypt Lord class concept does. Again, if you merge the concepts together, you satisfy a large swathe of players who want a similar thing (Crypt Lord, Nerubians, DotN, Mantid).

[Vaedan]

Where is the demand for it coming from?

Aside from Golden Yak's concept and your own concept generally getting 'Cool concept, thumbs up' responses, where is the actual demand for playable Crypt Lords coming from?

I've literally not heard anyone in any class thread say they want a playable Crypt Lord class over any other class concept, if this is what we're talking about. It's never been polled, it's never been expressedly demanded, and you admit it's only something you just happened to consider yourself after Dracthyr became playable.


What is driving this desire for playable Crypt Lords? Because of Warcraft 3? Because of HOTS? Because of Golden Yak's Azjol Nerub concept? Let's face it, we're talking about your desires, based on what you've convinced yourself to be plausible. I don't see anyone else really sharing a desire to burrow charge and impale and shoot webs. People are just agreeing that it'd be a neat concept, one that's likely never to happen.


If we're talking about a class concept that is literally appealing to literally a couple people, then I don't think it's worth fussing over not being playable.

I can confidently say the same over some people's expressed interest in a Nightwarrior/POTM concept. There's literally no significant demand for a Nightwarrior Class outside of the one or two people who seem hyper-fanatic about them on this board. I wouldn't worry myself over such a minority.

Agreed. There are so many great concepts based on lore characters or various RPG classes, but we can't expect all of them to happen through its own class. They would be thematical overlaps, not to mention that gameplay of each class/spec is important factor too. New class should bring something new and exciting. For me, Crypt Lord concept is too shallow and it could be replicated through druid class with proper customizations. We don't need to limit it to Undead, another races like void elves and Nightborne (fal'dorei inspiration) could fit in here too.

I would also not really count on another class/race scenario, as it was one of the main issue many people had with the new race and class. There are still people who love the class, but don't like dracthyr. There are still people who are not really interested in new class, but like the race and would like to play, let's say, Dracthyr Mage.

Ion addressed this and basicaly announced that dracthyr will get new class options in future. It seems that the unique class/race combos was interesting experiment, but it was not that well accepted. Personally, I can't wait to race change my mage to dracthyr and roleplay her as a Blue Dragon, playing around her visage and new Tarecgosa mount.

[Teriz]

Agreed. There are so many great concepts based on lore characters or various RPG classes, but we can't expect all of them to happen through its own class. They would be thematical overlaps, not to mention that gameplay of each class/spec is important factor too. New class should bring something new and exciting. For me, Crypt Lord concept is too shallow and it could be replicated through druid class with proper customizations. We don't need to limit it to Undead, another races like void elves and Nightborne (fal'dorei inspiration) could fit in here too.

You're never going to get a Druid class that can replicate a Crypt Lord or a Druid of the Nightmare. Blizzard would have to reskin the entire class, which they're never going to do.

Also there are no thematic overlaps, since no other class is utilizing this theme.

In the end, Azjol Nerub/Spider Kingdom is a viable expansion concept, so this concept is also viable as a future race/class.

As for race/class exclusivity, you could easily allow Nerubians to be other classes based on the concept presented here.

[Vaedan]

You're never going to get a Druid class that can replicate a Crypt Lord or a Druid of the Nightmare. Blizzard would have to reskin the entire class, which they're never going to do.

Also there are no thematic overlaps, since no other class is utilizing this theme.

In the end, Azjol Nerub/Spider Kingdom is a viable expansion concept, so this concept is also viable as a future race/class.

I would say that Druid class can capture DotN pretty well, with just few customizations. The class itself has nightmare forms already. Basicaly all you need is just make glyphs which turns some of your spells to red/black to give them the right vibe.

Look at first boss in Darkheart Thicket. He is nightmare druid, using various druid skills. Ursoc and Cenarius also use spells close to what regular druids do, with a corrupted twist.

Druid of the Nightmare class would be just regular druid, but evil. You can do that through customizations. Crypt Lord would be just a druid you get from Wish.

[Teriz]

I would say that Druid class can capture DotN pretty well, with just few customizations. The class itself has nightmare forms already. Basicaly all you need is just make glyphs which turns some of your spells to red/black to give them the right vibe.

Look at first boss in Darkheart Thicket. He is nightmare druid, using various druid skills. Ursoc and Cenarius also use spells close to what regular druids do, with a corrupted twist.

Druid of the Nightmare class would be just regular druid, but evil. You can do that through customizations. Crypt Lord would be just a druid you get from Wish.

And I'm talking about Druid of the Nightmare like Elereth Renferal;



The only way you make that worthwhile is if you reskin an entire spec.

There's also the issue of impetus; Why would Blizzard bother to do that in the first place? They never gave us reskinned abilities for Druids of the Flame for example, and they also never gave us Nightmare Druid forms during or after Legion when we were getting several new Druid forms from artifact weapons and items.

In the end, the impetus for a Crypt Lord class is an Azjol Nerub/Spider Kingdom expansion. On the other hand, there is no reason to spend valuable developer time creating random forms and glyphs for the Druid class.

[Nymrohd]

I would say that Druid class can capture DotN pretty well, with just few customizations. The class itself has nightmare forms already. Basicaly all you need is just make glyphs which turns some of your spells to red/black to give them the right vibe.

Look at first boss in Darkheart Thicket. He is nightmare druid, using various druid skills. Ursoc and Cenarius also use spells close to what regular druids do, with a corrupted twist.

Druid of the Nightmare class would be just regular druid, but evil. You can do that through customizations. Crypt Lord would be just a druid you get from Wish.

And they probably have most of the SFX they would need if they ever did a class skin for something like this.

[Vaedan]

And I'm talking about Druid of the Nightmare like Elereth Renferal;



The only way you make that worthwhile is if you reskin an entire spec.

There's also the issue of impetus; Why would Blizzard bother to do that in the first place? They never gave us reskinned abilities for Druids of the Flame for example, and they also never gave us Nightmare Druid forms during or after Legion when we were getting several new Druid forms from artifact weapons and items.

In the end, the impetus for a Crypt Lord class is an Azjol Nerub/Spider Kingdom expansion. On the other hand, there is no reason to spend valuable developer time creating random forms and glyphs for the Druid class.

Quite contrary. Nightmare druids are from Legion, tied to artifacts. We also get Death themed druids in form of Thornspeakers in BfA.

As for guardian and feral specs, you don't need to do any special animations... Druids tearing their victims apart, using variety of bleeding effects is just fine. For balance and resto, you just need to add glyphs to alter animations. That's it.

I would also assume that creating glyphs and customization options for a class is a thing which is way easier to do than making whole new class. Customizations are also pretty popular among players which plays a class... And druids are very popular class with huge playerbase.

On the other hand, since this thread, nobody was really demanding a Crypt Lord, and it does not seem that your concept convinced people to want one. I am pretty sure introducing a concept of dark druid would make people interested... But you don't need to waste time and resources on developing new class because of that.

Last but not least, introducing a new class to the game is very big commitment to the whole balance in present and future content. Each new class brought something new and unique. Crypt Lord concept does not have nothing compelling safe it's theme and visuals... Which can be introduced through customizations. It is the same as Dark Rangers, really... Just with the exception that Dark Rangers were actually requested and would require way less effort to introduce them.

[Shadowferal]

I admit I fell in love with the druid tier 15 armor set "Vestments of the Haunted Forest." So much so I'm looking for a half-baked reason to fit an idea...not far removed from a "nightmare druid."
Something Felwood related...


Sorry..off-topic..