Did Forsaken lore do a 180?

[Talen]

What, fighting for your existence? Lol, everyone should lay their weapons, roll over and die out.

But they aren't fighting for their existence.

They're fighting to make everyone else as miserable as they are by denying them the existence they already have and forcibly binding their spirit to the material plane. Maybe they are worried they are going to be released from what they themsleves have described as a curse...but their desire to extend their population doesn't give them a right to deny others their life.

I really am baffled by IRL pallies. What would you do if you were her?

Probably what she is doing right now. After all, if I'm her, I'd have the same motivations and mindset. More accurately, if I'm in the same position as her, living a life I see as cursed then I can't think of any reason, offhand, why I'd want that to a: continue and b: extend that to others.

This actually means that she will take over the world and they're giving more attention to the future ruler of Warcraft, everything points to that.

We don't know whats going to happen and the storyline is wide open. Were this to be a written story, however, Sylvanas would be in the unenviable position of being optimally placed for a really, really big fall. Fortunately, or unfortunately, this isn't a written story and metagame needs dictated the current success of the Forsaken.

Crypts are not infinite.

No. And lets not forget Arthas also had access to them and the Forskane have been pliundering them for years themselves already. Moreso, the reanimation process works appears to work best with bodies in a suitable condition...too old and they've decomposed into near uselessness.

This shows your complete inability of any kind of understanding and (what's especially funny) compassion. There are no absolutes, especially when we talk about morals.

There are no grey morals. No matter how you cut it, shes doing evil. Apparently, even by Forsaken standards as shes killing of her enemies simply to ensure they suffer a death she and her people view as torture. However, we as players can't judge those actions by her standrads. We judge them by ours.

That makes them evil.

EJL

[conversekitty]

Seeing everything they've done on the PTR, all the immensely evil stuff, and knowing they openly defied Garrosh, there is no hope left for them, they need to be destroyed, they just need to be wiped off the planet.

I love my forsaken, and I'd deny Garrosh too, he's an asshole. I hate him.

[Talen]

ah. well yes, i agree humans are var too...zealous? for my tastes. hence why they ignored the first forsakens pleas while they slaughtered them. they didnt see their former family members caught inside their rotting corpses, they saw scourge. a sad time for everyone really.

its funny really, humans in azeroth are largely to blame for the forsaken being forsaken at all.

The Forsakens betrayal of the Lordaeranian army and the way they slaughtered and drove the huamns away didn't help things either. Humanity gave them a chance to show they had broken away from the Scourge only to find out, too late, it didn't really matter.

EJL

[Combatbutler]

The Forsakens betrayal of the Lordaeranian army and the way they slaughtered and drove the huamns away didn't help things either. Humanity gave them a chance to show they had broken away from the Scourge only to find out, too late, it didn't really matter.

EJL

One word Garithos i rest my case and both parties are to blame not just one

[AedanWolfe]

The Forsakens betrayal of the Lordaeranian army and the way they slaughtered and drove the huamns away didn't help things either. Humanity gave them a chance to show they had broken away from the Scourge only to find out, too late, it didn't really matter.

EJL

then perhaps that is a failure on my part to understand the sequences of the lore.

I thought that after they broke free, they went to there familes and loved ones, not knowing where else to go. and were not only rejected, but murdered...again, this time by there own flesh and blood, called monster, etc.

[Combatbutler]

then perhaps that is a failure on my part to understand the sequences of the lore.

I thought that after they broke free, they went to there familes and loved ones, not knowing where else to go. and were not only rejected, but murdered...again, this time by there own flesh and blood, called monster, etc.

Don't turn to the dark side we just arrived at such a nice gray place ^^

[AedanWolfe]

Don't turn to the dark side we just arrived at such a nice gray place ^^

im not lol. i merely submit myself to facts, question theory, and try my best to make a decision based on said facts.

[Deleted]

And all those children in Gilneas City? Are they assholes? That's what Garrosh denied, a blight nuclear strike against Gilneas City.

Oh well, they're all dead anyway, asshole orphans.

Well, orphans for 5.3 seconds, anyway, still, assholes.



The game does differentiate the player from the Forsaken that blindly destroy under Sylvanas, that's true, we straddle the line, there's a quest in the new Hillsbrad where we can either smash in the skulls of tormented Hillsbrad farmers or free them, allowing them to flee to safety.

The Forsaken are definitely evil at this point, the Forsaken players on the other hand are redeemable monsters more often than not.

no option to free them, then cast living bomb to give them chance to get back to their families where it would cause the most damage?
tch, I'm disappointed

[Haven]

Take a look at Combat Training. Open your eyes for once and see what's going on.

So what? Find me one perma-mind-controlled slave among Forsaken.How does she actually keep constant control, with a stolen Helm of Dominance?

Show me information in game that proves otherwise that Sylvanas is heading for removal? I've pointed to various things in game that show she's going to be dealt with, yet all I've gotten in return from you is suposition and fanboism.

Calling others fanboys is a good sign, you're making projections already. You speculated that the whole world will forget about every sane reason they had and will kill Sylvanas despite Forsaken being fanatically loyal to her, despite Horde needing her, despite KotEB apparently no longer existing and having nothing to do with it, despite AC neutrality and clearly other field of authority, despite recent focus on her lore and development, despite her wild popularity, despite the whole friggin' Forsaken society up to their crest and quotes being about her, and despite common sense.

The point is, the quest in the starting zone shows that new Forsaken are not being controlled while WttM and Combat Training shows that they're charmed.

Which is a perfectly reasonable combat technique. Why risk?

Point is, they're building up the character, you don't do that without a reason. Likewise, this is detracting from the whole point of this thread, that Sylvanas is going down a road that is going to cause he removal, be it internally or externally.

Like they built up Cairne, giving him extensive lore? /sarcasm

Forsaken failed pretty spectacularly in Silverpine and Hinterlands, so I'm not worried about the Forsaken expanding.

Like in http://cata.wowhead.com/quest=27232 ? And Hinterlands... someone defeated a band of Forsaken rogues in a small camp of two tents. Awesome victory, Forsaken war machine stopped for good!!!

And what's to say that as Sylvanas' actions get back to the other races of the Horde that they're so disgusted that they tell Garrosh to deal with her or they stop lending their support. Then where is Garrosh in his "conquer the world" mission?

And still, they do Frostwolves' years-long work in a matter of hours. Sweet http://cata.wowhead.com/quest=28616

He'll go against a threat to the Knights of the Ebon Blade, if that's Sylvanas, then so be it.

Knights of the Ebon Blade are a threat themselves, if they so willingly betray their faction. Who does their allegiance lie with?

He'll go against a threat to the Argents, if that's Sylvanas, then so be it.

And how is she a threat?

Hogger has been a joke for a very long time (take a look at Paragon vs special bosses at 2009 Blizzcon). Lillian, I'm not so sure.

No, Hogger is serious. Dumass is serious, why isn't Hogger?

Nope, I've shown with in game quests and events that what Sylvanas is doing is causing issues for everyone, Horde and Alliance. If you want to cling to the desperation that she won't be removed, by all means do so, but Blizzard has already removed one beloved character (Cairne) and another that most were ambivalent to (Magni). What's to make them stop now?

Cair-who? They got rid of two old furniture objects collecting dust to shake up the story. They literally did nothing in WoW aside from 1-2 quests. Does Sylvanas collect dust?

You'd be surprised how willing people are to turn on something. Beloved leaders have been thrown from power before.

That's why Horde will turn on Garrosh when he goes against Sylvanas and the whole Alliance will rebel. You'll be surprise dat how easily that will happen alluvasudden.

Yeah, Garrosh is a real moralist and even he finds her tactics repugnant. You don't think that there aren't some Forsaken that find her too over the top? Change can come form without, it can come from within as well.

I've seen two. Both in AC. They've got nowhere else to go not to be frowned upon. Your point?

Really? Explain where Sylvanas hasn't been about killing everyone that isn't Forsaken in WoW.

Dunno, maybe during Battle for Undercity, where she was about clearing her name and reclaiming her city? Maybe in TBC when was about fighting tooth and nail to secure Blood Elves' position within the Horde? Maybe back in Ghostlands where she was about avenging Dar'khan Drathir and helping both her people and Kalec/Anveena by that?

Explain where Chynn hasn't been about killing everyone that isn't Alliance in WoW.

How do you fight with green gas when it or its dispersion units are removed by arial combat? How do you fight against powers that sear undead flesh from a distance. The Forsaken fought a fanatical group that didn't show great tactics in battle (mostly because they were still be manipulated by Dread Lords to be used as cannon fodder). The Argents are a well trained group that won't let fanatasism blind them to their real purpose.

Pointless. And yeah, AC used great tactics. Run into Dark Cathedral onto unholy ground where LK messes with his heart and... oh nevermind, improvise from there. Then, let the other guys (KotEB) do the whole dirty job in Icecrown and build a coliseum where everyone will joust because it's very necessary inside ICC and kill each other because it reinforces us against LK! Best. Strategy. Ever.

You seem to think that the Scarlets only hated the Forsaken, it goes will beyond that. But again, we're not talking about the Scarlets here, we're talking about the road Sylvanas is travelling and how it can lead to her removal from the game.

How is it relevant? I'm saying that Forsaken have been fighting against Scarlets the most out of all races; in fact, it's been their primary enemy for a very very long time. Forsaken know how to deal with various crusaders. Take Lightslayers.

You have to be willing to take off your blinders, if you're not, I can't help you.

Or smoke the same weed you do.

Maybe, maybe not. The point is, they've built things up for her removal. She has literally become that which she most despised. The level of hypocracy inherient in her right now should make a lot of Forsaken's stomach's churn (if they were still alive). She has taken a 180 degree turn from her path prior to Cata which is to become like the Lich King, the one thing she despised more than anything else.

She is a saviour and a protector of her people, again. How is that wrong?

How long before the genocial Forsaken would start turning on each other after they killed everyone else? Also, you realize that the genocial Forsaken are playing right into the hands of the Legion. The whole reason the Scourge was created was to kill all living things on Azeroth so they could sweep in with a legion of willling slaves and take what they wanted from Azeroth. Does it make sense to let the genocial Forsaken continue? Anyways, this is getting off the topic again which is that Blizzard is building Sylvanas up to fall.

You think that Blizzard will cut out a whole character archetype from the game. One of their universally most favorite character archetypes (looking at SC's Kerrigan and D3's Demon Hunter). That they'll change a whole race to suit this. And that they put all that attention into a character to simply dump it. That oesn't make sense to me, why would Blizzard cut out the fun and diversity from their own game?

---------- Post added 2010-11-21 at 01:24 AM ----------

There are no grey morals.

Grow up.

[Speaknoevil]

And all those children in Gilneas City? Are they assholes? That's what Garrosh denied, a blight nuclear strike against Gilneas City.

Oh well, they're all dead anyway, asshole orphans.

Well, orphans for 5.3 seconds, anyway, still, assholes.



The game does differentiate the player from the Forsaken that blindly destroy under Sylvanas, that's true, we straddle the line, there's a quest in the new Hillsbrad where we can either smash in the skulls of tormented Hillsbrad farmers or free them, allowing them to flee to safety.

The Forsaken are definitely evil at this point, the Forsaken players on the other hand are redeemable monsters more often than not.

Indeed, but there are others among the undead that are not complete monsters, as you referenced.

Many undead spirits in Caer Darrow, those in the Argent Crusade, more than just the one at Light's Hope. Take for example the rogue tier 10 vendor in Icecrown, he is a member of the Ashen Verdict, which is the Argent Crusade in essence.

Right now at the Bulwark, and the previously discussed quest givers.

What I am most curious about is how Blizzard justifies the mutilation of Sylvanas' character.

If I recall she hated herself, hated being undead, and would never dream of visiting that on another creature.

The iconic Sylvanas that I remember would never kill to raise, or raise those she had killed.

She simply accepted her fate, and tried to free those she could that were already victims of the Lich King's necromancy.

EDIT: That was what made the plight of the Forsaken a dangerous line. To forever walk on a knife's edge between what you were, and the abyss.

[Dark Side]

Don't turn to the dark side we just arrived at such a nice gray place ^^

This thread confuses me with its false summons

[Haven]

This thread confuses me with its false summons

Silly cultists, wrong incantation again!

[Talen]

then perhaps that is a failure on my part to understand the sequences of the lore.

I thought that after they broke free, they went to there familes and loved ones, not knowing where else to go. and were not only rejected, but murdered...again, this time by there own flesh and blood, called monster, etc.

No...first they broke free, then they allied with Garithos and the Lordaeranian army, then they fought and captured capital city together and after all that, Sylvanas turned on the army, killed Garithos and slaughtered the rest of the troops.

Garithos may not have been the most sympathetic of characters, but the betrayal and murder of his army wasn't likely to make the remaining humans think "Hey...these guys just said they are ex Scourge and they killed Garithos and his men who protected us for so long. Lets not judge them by their actions".

[/COLOR]
Grow up.

No...there are no grey morals.

The Forsaken are not "good" because they need to ensure they survival of their race by commiting evil. They are evil. The better question is whether they are justifed in their actions, whether the evil they commit now is justfied in some manner.

EJL

[AedanWolfe]

@ Talen

why did they betray garithos if i may ask?

[Combatbutler]

No...first they broke free, then they allied with Garithos and the Lordaeranian army, then they fought and captured capital city together and after all that, Sylvanas turned on the army, killed Garithos and slaughtered the rest of the troops.

Garithos may not have been the most sympathetic of characters, but the betrayal and murder of his army wasn't likely to make the remaining humans think "Hey...these guys just said they are ex Scourge and they killed Garithos and his men who protected us for so long. Lets not judge them by their actions".

EJL

---------- Post added 2010-11-20 at 10:40 PM ----------



No...there are no grey morals.

The Forsaken are not "good" because they need to ensure they survival of their race by commiting evil. They are evil.

EJL

They act like cornered humans and garithos and his men had it coming the moment they decided to kill an entire platoon of belves because they accepted naga help (even though Kaelthas took the responsibility)

And of course there are gray morals because different cultures view things different and as such there is no absolute moral we frown upon suicide bombers but in another culture they are martyrs

@ Talen

why did they betray garithos if i may ask?

Because he would backstab them as soon they are no longer usefull to him

http://www.wowpedia.org/Garithos

This thread confuses me with its false summons

Oh my god you are just like the Candyman ^^

[Haven]

No...there are no grey morals.

The Forsaken are not "good" because they need to ensure they survival of their race by commiting evil. They are evil.

Any nation that fought in wars is irredeemably evil this way. Anyone who has ever ate meat in his life is, as well. And you are, too. Evil beyond salvation...

[Deleted]

No...first they broke free, then they allied with Garithos and the Lordaeranian army, then they fought and captured capital city together and after all that, Sylvanas turned on the army, killed Garithos and slaughtered the rest of the troops.

Garithos may not have been the most sympathetic of characters, but the betrayal and murder of his army wasn't likely to make the remaining humans think "Hey...these guys just said they are ex Scourge and they killed Garithos and his men who protected us for so long. Lets not judge them by their actions".

EJL

---------- Post added 2010-11-20 at 10:40 PM ----------



No...there are no grey morals.

The Forsaken are not "good" because they need to ensure they survival of their race by commiting evil. They are evil.

EJL

I've never heard that version of forsaken history before, I always thought it was that they were instantly killed on sight as monsters without even being given a chance?

as for morals, it's a matter of perspective, and let's not forget, history is written by the victors, if they kill anyone who says they are evil, by extention that means the common thought is theyre good right?

it's not "there are no grey morals", it's more "there are ONLY grey morals"

[AedanWolfe]

@ combatbutler

from that link, garithos was a douche, but gave no inclination (in the link) that he would backstab sylvanas or her people.

[Deleted]

Any nation that fought in wars this way is irredeemably evil. Anyone who has ever ate meat in his life is, as well. And you are, too.

hehe, don't bring vegetarianism into this, I was named my server's troll of 2010 for a /2 speech on how vegetarians were evil due to plants not being able to object to being eaten :P

honestly, good and evil are meaningless terms created by our personal and society's norms and taboos, don't forget, many of our society's taboos are to do with death, wheras in WoW with things like resurrection and healing magics, death is less of a big deal, they have more of a society based on honor

[Combatbutler]

@ combatbutler

from that link, garithos was a douche, but gave no inclination (in the link) that he would backstab sylvanas or her people.

He was about to throw them out in the Wc3 cinematic but Sylvanas stops him mid sentence ordering Varimathras to kill him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtSuF...eature=related