[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Malackai]

What I meant was that in WoW M+ a tank has to be able to do max DPS, stay alive, sometimes requiring kiting, interrupts, and CC chains, constant positioning requirements, has to be able to move as quickly as possible and know all the routes of the dungeons, and which mob packs are more dangerous/worth more %.

In FF14, because there is no content really like it to compare too, you're stuck with just focusing on staying alive. FF14 removed interrupts and CC because the community thought it was too hard back in 2.0-2.1, kiting isn't terribly relevant in this game which is fine. I'm not even a huge fan of kiting, but it's much worse in FF14 when you have to move enemies makes it hell for melee, in WoW its fluidity makes that a non-issue.

A tank doesn't have to know any routes or what trash you can skip because it's not really relevant (due to linearity) and there's no danger in there anyway.

I'd be a full time tank in WoW if their tank classes looked or felt as cool as the FF14 variants though for sure.

Technically only cc has really been removed, Interrupts are still being used by good tanks and the difference is between night and day if a Tank properly interrupts and assisting the the DPS interupts.
Kiting isn't really prevalent in FF14 give you that.
I haven played anything seriously after MoP. did some WoD dungeons just you know.

But if I list the thinks down it basically boils down to this:
WoW tank:
DPS
Survive
Kiting (sometimes)
Interrupts,
CC
Positioning of mobs, bosses
Move quickly? you mean leading the group set the pace of the run?

Route of dungeons, packs to skip?
Identifying mob packs?

FF14 Tank:
DPS
Survive
Kiting (OT Sometimes does, but if there is any kiting usually a Healer or DPS does it)
Interrupts (Happens still as well.)
Positioning of the mobs, bosses
Move quickly leading groups set pace of the run.

The remaining things are pretty much related to how the dungeons have been designed in both games.
Route of dungeons, packs to skip?
Identifying mob packs?

FF14 has stepped away from the labyrinthine design and strewing trash packs all over the place as you already stated.
Its human nature to try skipping as much as possible or taking the shortest route and if Blizzards add in unnecessary packs people will skip them period.
But to call this a tank responsibility seems a little over the top, its more group responsibility as a whole what to skip and not ninja pull.

Same with the identifying of mob packs. It should be a responsibility of the group as a whole and not only the tank (at least pre WoD when I was still a hunterwe just marked our own mobs to Cc kite etc tanks just marked the remaining ones for kill order. And after a first run you already knew what mobs where dangerous.)
If this has changed is it really a tank role or simply a shift in the community as a whole?

I know with Mythics mobs get RNG buffs etc. But should not everyone one look out for it?
In FF14 this still happens as well just less I think people see it more of a group tasks then just individual.

One thing active mitigation. I saw it being brought up quite a bit.
Please correct me if I am wrong haven't played a tank in WoW so I am not really sure what is meant by it. As I understand its basically a constant CD rotation that either lowers damage of the mobs or ups your DEF? If so if you don't do this it is basically one shot or just a case of how long can the healer last and how much will he/she hate me after it?

I am really wondering if it is really that different or it just seems so because the rest has been nerfed in the ground? (eg DPS kiting chain ccing, pulling)

[Kazgrel]

Well i got my ilvl190 axe and scythe. So 3 ish weeks or red scripts for Goblin Dice and these upgrade into the BiS tools for Botanist right? i've only seen the 195 ones on the marketboard.

It could be argued that the Ironworks crafted tools are absolute BiS, since they can be melded to the point they are slightly better than the augmented (ilvl 200) red scrip tools. That said, as someone who uses all ironworks + the augmented main hand tools, I'm able to gather/craft anything I need to, outside of the stuff that's specialist locked.

[Wrecktangle]

I'll quote Mionee then if you don't think so. Someone that has a way bigger command in position and knowledge than you.

Who is Mionee? First off, you structured your entire statement to "Mionee" to cater to your stance instead of being objective. I could ask anyone a slanted question to get the answer I wanted, doesn't mean its grounded even if its an expert.

and by the way yes, dps does set the pace, every role does. In fact the faster the mobs die the faster the pace more can be pulled. The better the healer is in efficiency the less down time there is.

No. A DPS does not set the pace. A DPS has but one pace. It is to deal as much damage as his skill/gear/class affords. It is not variable. A tanks pace is 100% variable based on the competency of his team and he is required to gauge that and make decisions based on how much his healer can handle, and the output of his DPS, in addition to managing his own survivability. If the DPS kill the mobs super fast, but the tank doesn't pull then the DPS has no control over the pace. The tank makes the conscious decision when, who, and how to pull. You could make an argument that the healer has "some" control, by being OOM preventing the tank from moving forward, but even still it is up to the tank to realize and acknowledge this as well as determine whether the next pack is dangerous enough to mandate the healer sitting and drinking.

Come back to me when you find other games that aren't WoW and FFXIV for skill level. Come back to me when you can start achieving even passes at 9 star+ for Miku rhythm games or 4.5 star+ in Osu, games that are objectively harder than any of these games. I play varying difficulties of games.

??????????????????????????????????????? Why are you now deflecting to other games when they were not the topic of discussion nor are the types of games you're suggesting even relevant to this discussion.

I find the carebear things stupid is what I find because at a certain point people find the need to belittle others like you are when people just want to have fun.

I'm not belittling someone by describing a THING as carebear difficulty. I can't help what someone takes offense too, but it is not meant derogatorily. It simply describes content targeted towards players not interested in engaging or challenging content. Not sure how this triggered you...

I would point out that not everyone is capable of overcoming certain handicaps. I have no choice but to play with around 800ms of ping. Given that I don't raid because of this fact, it's not a crippling one, but it does mean I simply cannot do certain parts of the game. I cannot 'get good' because there's no way I can overcome that inherent limitation.

WHAT in gods name are you doing with 800 ping? I fully understand that having a handicap prevents you from doing x and that is a completely valid argument.

So I am quite fine with there being plenty of 'faceroll' content for someone like me who will never be able to match up to what's needed for portions of the game. If anything, I'd like to see more content that caters to me, such as the Deep Dungeon and open-world stuff like Elite Hunts. There should always be a place for harder content, but it should not be the dominant portion of the game. As Blizzard themselves observed, more often than not, when faced with a harder task, people will quit rather than rise above it. Cos at the end of the day, it's a game. Not RL.

The question here is do you ACTUALLY enjoy doing a dungeon that you're 45ilvl over the requirement for that provides 0 reward, that requires absolutely no skill/engagement or anything? How is playing a game "fun" for you with a debilitating 800ms handicap? I could argue that you're such an extreme outlier that catering any content to you would be doing injustice to others ya know?

I'm not advocating for difficult content to be the main focus, not sure where that idea popped up from. Easy dungeons should exist, but they should also have dungeons that are more difficult, offer rewards that you care about, and help you to get better at the game. One of the big issues with the topic of quit vs. rise above is that I firmly believe game devs do a VERY poor job at implementing positive gameplay feedback. Think about it for a second:

Let's say you join a dungeon and the other DPS is the same class as you. Let's say he has similar gear to you, but completely out-performs you. You'd never know because the game doesn't tell you (threat meter is not an indicator of performance). You'd never know because he carries you through the dungeon and you go on your merry way. It wasn't fun to that player to have to carry you, and it wasn't fun for you to have NO IDEA your level of contribution/performance. The game never says, hey you can do better and here's how.

Even as a tank or a healer, you don't understand why you're wiping. People are dying. You're spamming heals as best you can, but you can't tell whats going wrong. The only way to get information on solutions, tips/tricks, etc. is to peruse often outdated, misinformed posts online in hopes that some of it is relevant. Games can and should do better jobs at providing input so you can make better decisions and learn from mistakes to be a better player.

1) Yes. They definitely do. Although that is more of a community demanded thing rather than a content demand.
People usually expect the tank to lead and know stuff.

From a pure gameplay PoV, a tank is often easier to play than a DPS. Esp in raids where a tank can afford slack on DPS a bit while handling mechanics while a DPS always has the pressure of handling AND performing at maximum as best he can.

2) Definitely. Active mitigation sees to that. Its very different to depend on AM all the time as opposed to pushing the occasional long cooldown.

3) No contest. Dark Knight destroys Death Knight in terms of "coolness".

Preach - I will say though you shouldn't be tanking and slacking off A tank still needs to do the most damage he can get away with, without making a healers life miserable.

No one is saying DPS and Healers have NO responsibility, but pretending that the tank is not the de facto leader in a group is a little silly. Tanks lead the group through the dungeon, literally, if a DPS or healer tried to lead they'd get eaten alive by the mob pack before the tank could establish threat or if they didn't it simply makes the tanks job more difficult because now they need to scramble to grab threat before the DPS or healer dies...all while the healer is probably trying to heal through the damage. Needlessly complicated.

It takes a team to do practically anything in this game (or any MMO), no one is debating that. But every team needs a leader, that's almost always the tank in a dungeon group. Leaders shoulder a little more responsibility simply by the fact that they are expected to lead, they are always in the spotlight/ under a microscope. By comparison, generally only really good or really bad healers/ DPS get criticized or praised or even noticed.

Preach.

I was right there with you until you started the carebear crap. News flash: WoW and this game aren't difficult outside of organizing people. If you want to act all elitist (and yeah you are acting elitist) maybe pick something that requires more skill to hang your hat on.

Again - carebear is a descriptor of an object, that object being a design paradigm, not a person. I'm not hanging my hat on anything here. I've played both games at a high level and I agree the hardest part of both games is 100% organizing people (whether 7 or 19) who can consistently not make a mistake. The mechanics themselves are not difficult to perform (sometimes difficult to figure out, but that's it).

Regarding calling me an elitist, not sure I agree. I'm not saying/bragging that I am better than x or everyone. I'm simply stating that I do not enjoy trivial non-engaging content (and more importantly WHY I do not enjoy it). I don't believe that makes me an elitist, nor does using the word carebear as a descriptor to a dungeon design paradigm IMO. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong though, maybe my definition of an elitist is wrong.

Other than that I guess I agree with you. Tanks do have more responsibility, WoW tanks have more responsibility than FFXIV tanks, and yes Dark Knights are way cooler. I guess I can see the argument that the role itself has the same responsibility and that it is based on encounters....however EVERY WoW encounter seems to be designed to put more responsibility on the tank than FFXIV IMO. This is just from my few forays into tanking, I do not currently main a tank nor have I ever.

Not sold on the encounter dictating responsibility piece personally. Encounters have mechanics and that's fine and dandy, but overarching responsibility (which you agreed with so we're good there) is that Tanks still have know dungeon paths, mob %, capability of pulls, difficulty of pulls, positioning requirements, decide between DPS or AM, THEN they need to do the things everyone else has to do too. In FF14 dungeons are so mind-numbingly easy, you don't need a tank most of the time. Hell my PLD tanking (back in the day) with full STR accessories (before it was cool), full STR build and in sword stance. Yep didn't have aggro issues either. Healer had to heal though. No afk fairy healing would keep me up. This was my strategy for making afk healers actually have to heal, and making up for poorly skilled DPS (measured by ACT).

In an ideal world, that might be nice. In reality, the tank carries the weight of not only his "role mechanics" and "encounter mechanics" but also knowing the dungeon paths, effective pulls, safe places to handle the actual fights, positioning/facing of the mobs, keeping the group moving at a good place but also not overwhelming the healer or biting off more than they can chew, making life easier on the DPS so they can be more optimal, doing decent damage themselves (because in higher end content you'll need it) so on and so forth.

The list probably goes on and on as to what makes a "good tank" once you really start pushing content that's challenging and timed.

In contrast, 99% of the time the mage can just follow the tanks' lead and do DPS in whatever way they please and it'll generally be fine.

In raids this can be the case depending on the encounter, yes. I did concede that point earlier, but the focus of the topic was really on M+ dungeons where the role of the tank really takes off.

Preach. It's been crazy lately how much we agree despite butting heads in the past. My man!

I never said no responsibility just fyi. Every role is important, it's something that I find that's often misplaced in importance.
Also the tank doesn't have to be the lead you know, and being the lead doesn't mean you have to be the one to pull. The leader is one that guides the group. I guess if you really want to consider trash that big of a deal, then sure, they have the responsibility of pulling trash. Otherwise in boss encounters the leader is the one that calls out what needs to be done, and that can be anyone.

And honestly I guess a mismatch was made here, one thing that I was more focused on was the bulk of the content being bosses as I don't find trash really that amusing, they're trash mobs. A difference of opinion in terms of how much it matters here though for trash.

That was kind of my original point... You were arguing something you had no real idea of. Trash are TERRIFYING on M+. That's why its a key component to the discussion that you keep leaving out/misunderstanding. You were pretty dead set on trying to prove your right, without actually partaking in the ACTUAL discussion lol.

Dps have to : DPS, Survive.
Tanks have to : DPS, Survive.

But Heals, Heals have to : DPS, Survive...and Heal.

Heal is harder.

LOL. no one was discussing which of the 3 roles is harder. We were discussing which role has the most responsibility. Difficulty =/= responsibility, but you could argue they are positively correlated. I'd posit that a healer has much more responsibility than a DPS, less so than tank, and in FF14 I am usually more impressed by good healers whereas in WoW I am more impressed by good tanks. Not sure why honestly. I could say a DPS is harder than a healer (not sure if true, NOT a healer player), but doing quality DPS isn't easy, the thought process associated with maximizing uptime/risk vs. reward, etc. is pretty insane.

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Technically only cc has really been removed, Interrupts are still being used by good tanks and the difference is between night and day if a Tank properly interrupts and assisting the the DPS interupts.
Kiting isn't really prevalent in FF14 give you that.
I haven played anything seriously after MoP. did some WoD dungeons just you know.

We're discussing the M+ dungeon vs. FF14 dungeon paradigm so not having experienced it is unfortunate as you're not quite aware of the content, but I'll respond.

In M+ dungeons you are timed. The timers are tight (assuming you're doing higher level keystones), Like old challenge modes you have to do certain # of trash kills to be eligible to clear the dungeon. Certain mobs are worth more %. Ideally you want to kill as little as possible. You also have certain affixes that completely change up what trash you want to tackle, and on top of that certain comps make killing certain packs/dealing with affixes easier/harder so its up to the tank to be cognizant of all of these when choosing what to pull.

Knowing this you can see why the tank is the key to the run. A DPS or healer who tries to pull a mob differently than the tank will almost be 1 shot, if not 1 shot. certain mobs enrage naturally at low health and are dangerous, then you can have an affix that causes all mobs to enrage at low health, this doubles, and in conjunction with their already 100% increased damage they can 1-2 shot tanks through CDs and require kiting.

Also - when I say CC, I don't mean like Trap them and ignore them while burn other target. I mean CC'ing a dangerous kill target while they're doing a dangerous move, or their enraged, etc.

One thing active mitigation. I saw it being brought up quite a bit. Please correct me if I am wrong haven't played a tank in WoW so I am not really sure what is meant by it. As I understand its basically a constant CD rotation that either lowers damage of the mobs or ups your DEF? If so if you don't do this it is basically one shot or just a case of how long can the healer last and how much will he/she hate me after it?

AM mitigation is a tanking rotation model that gives a tank the option to spend resources on damage increasing attacks or defense increasing attacks. It is important for a tank to dish out the most damage he can, while surviving. Certain mobs/trash/bosses may require more AM, or less. It's a decision the tank has to make on the fly constantly to maximize his contribution to the run.

Also regarding interrupts. What encounters in FF14 requires interrupts? I don't recall ever needing one since like T1/T2 coil. Mobs just don't do any damage in FF14 dungeons so they're never needed there. CC is useful for sure though.

[Remilia]

Who is Mionee? First off, you structured your entire statement to "Mionee" to cater to your stance instead of being objective. I could ask anyone a slanted question to get the answer I wanted, doesn't mean its grounded even if its an expert.

Surprised you don't know, especially on this particular forum.
https://m.youtube.com/user/Mionelol
That said, you're talking about how I don't know these so let's ask an expert... One of the best soloer and player in WoW.

No. A DPS does not set the pace. A DPS has but one pace. It is to deal as much damage as his skill/gear/class affords. It is not variable. A tanks pace is 100% variable based on the competency of his team and he is required to gauge that and make decisions based on how much his healer can handle, and the output of his DPS, in addition to managing his own survivability. If the DPS kill the mobs super fast, but the tank doesn't pull then the DPS has no control over the pace. The tank makes the conscious decision when, who, and how to pull. You could make an argument that the healer has "some" control, by being OOM preventing the tank from moving forward, but even still it is up to the tank to realize and acknowledge this as well as determine whether the next pack is dangerous enough to mandate the healer sitting and drinking.

The weakest link sets the pace. If the dps is slow then the group slows down. The tank can't go faster than what the healer and dps can handle and vice versa. Anyone can severely hamper the rate of progression with ease. You can't go go go when the mobs aren't dead.

??????????????????????????????????????? Why are you now deflecting to other games when they were not the topic of discussion nor are the types of games you're suggesting even relevant to this discussion.

I'm not belittling someone by describing a THING as carebear difficulty. I can't help what someone takes offense too, but it is not meant derogatorily. It simply describes content targeted towards players not interested in engaging or challenging content. Not sure how this triggered you...

The entire point of the other game is in response to your carebear garbage. If you want to flaunt skill these games aren't remotely the picks for it. Only time people use carebear is as a belittling status/level and always by elitist, otherwise no point in using it outside of just saying easy. Never have I heard anyone legitimately use it as a descriptor in a non derogatory fashion.
And yeah... Using triggered in a serious manner is kind of... sad.

[dope_danny]

Welp, wondered why my retainer income had hit zero the last few days, the patch must have brought back enough of the "fuck it, undercut everything" players that the market on my server has crashed and just about everything has dropped to around 5% the prices they were going for yesterday. Every patch day -_-

[tikcol]

Nah, A11 prey is bullshit for a mechanic in a normal mode. First time I ran this and I had it kill me twice, I was thinking I (BLM) was doing it wrong. Started running with the marker over me (but not through other people); nope, can't dodge, still dead. Line of sight behind the pillar thing (kinda like for propeller wind)? Nope, still dead. "Well fuck, I'll use manaward, should be fine" LOL JK DED. So we're completely at the mercy of healers throwing us some sort of cooldown in a 2-3 second span (assuming we started at 100% hp, which isn't always the case).

It's an example of where UI customization could come in handy, although I dare say it would trivialize the mechanic. Imagine the prey mechanic marker (or a smaller version of it, at least) appearing on the unit frame for whomever is targeted by it.

Edit: I'm also on Balmung (see sig link)

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I am also not a fan of such mechanisms, but at the same time, if it's required to go through all of ARR + HW MSQ just to get started in Stormblood...that's a LOT of quests. So I'm somewhat torn on the topic.

Personally, I'd be like "deal with it" and leave the MSQ requirement intact, because the main story has continuity (vs. in wow where one can just jump right into the newest xpac without a clue as to "why am I here and how did I get here").

I'm of the opinion that FFXIV is story driven so they shouldn't cave in to such ideas.

It can go wrong very quickly

[Malackai]

We're discussing the M+ dungeon vs. FF14 dungeon paradigm so not having experienced it is unfortunate as you're not quite aware of the content, but I'll respond.

In M+ dungeons you are timed. The timers are tight (assuming you're doing higher level keystones), Like old challenge modes you have to do certain # of trash kills to be eligible to clear the dungeon. Certain mobs are worth more %. Ideally you want to kill as little as possible. You also have certain affixes that completely change up what trash you want to tackle, and on top of that certain comps make killing certain packs/dealing with affixes easier/harder so its up to the tank to be cognizant of all of these when choosing what to pull.

Knowing this you can see why the tank is the key to the run. A DPS or healer who tries to pull a mob differently than the tank will almost be 1 shot, if not 1 shot. certain mobs enrage naturally at low health and are dangerous, then you can have an affix that causes all mobs to enrage at low health, this doubles, and in conjunction with their already 100% increased damage they can 1-2 shot tanks through CDs and require kiting.

Also - when I say CC, I don't mean like Trap them and ignore them while burn other target. I mean CC'ing a dangerous kill target while they're doing a dangerous move, or their enraged, etc.

AM mitigation is a tanking rotation model that gives a tank the option to spend resources on damage increasing attacks or defense increasing attacks. It is important for a tank to dish out the most damage he can, while surviving. Certain mobs/trash/bosses may require more AM, or less. It's a decision the tank has to make on the fly constantly to maximize his contribution to the run.

Also regarding interrupts. What encounters in FF14 requires interrupts? I don't recall ever needing one since like T1/T2 coil. Mobs just don't do any damage in FF14 dungeons so they're never needed there. CC is useful for sure though.

With interrupts I basically mean preventing certain attacks from mobs going off so people don't need to move/less Aoe damage and stuff. Not necessarily raid bosses.
But it seems you see that as CC so now I am confused >_>.

About the mythic I was aware they came on timers similar to Challenge dungeons and about the number of kills as well.
After reading about the affixes they do randomize and spice things up.
Only thing I am not certain of are the Mob packs static in position or do they also spawn randomly around the dungeon (I am not talking about the extra Teeming affix)

I also seem to see it more of a learning process to react to certain Affixes, then always dumping the responsibility on the tank maybe its just the old burning crusader firing up in me and I am just expecting the rest of the people knowing what they need to do, when they see certain affix combinations coming up. Instead of sitting with a finger in their noose waiting for the tank to do stuff. I don't even think that I would go in without any form of voicechat for the higher mythics just to save myself a lot of stress XD.

Atm it does kinda feel if people are trying to compare 2 quite different things which you stated as well.

The only thing that is similar to FF14 dungeons is either normal/heroic WoW dungeons. And I think at least in both of those Tanks have the same responsibilities.
FF14 PoTD new floors might come a little closer to the mythic system seeing it comes with random buffs/debuffs, timer and approach to clear floors. But the floors are randomly generated while in Mythics they aren't so we cant really compare those either.

[Remilia]

Appeal to authority is pretty weak in this case, though. Especially when you asked a really vague question leaving out all context of the topic.



Yes, but "pace" in this case doesn't refer to how fast the mobs die. The DPS could have a button that says "kill all the mobs instantly" and it's still up to the tank to set the pace of how fast they're pulling, what they're pulling, what they're skipping, how much they're pulling, and so on.

Low DPS will make the run slower, yes. But that's not really what's being touched on here.

I've linked the thread prior to. Nothing misleading and if someone doesn't see that the group is responsible for all actions and it shouldn't be put on the tanks then I don't know who anyone will listen to.

Then I guess define terms here. Pace as I've always seen is the rate / speed of the group. What you're saying is the time between pulls.

Also you should learn what appeal to authority fallacy is. It's citing someone outside the field. I'm pretty sure mione is more than qualified for WoW in general.

[Granyala]

Rotation wise maybe it's easier. But in what world can a tank slack dps in favor of doing mechanics? A good tank will do both, like a good dps would do both

In every non-super hardcore raid on this planet?

OFC good players can and will do both (Hint: that's why we call them good/exceptional players).
But most peeps won't give a rats ass whether the tank does 20% less, as long as he is doing everything else right.
Same applies to a healer, where healing DPS is more of a bonus.

Well...
Unless you're a holy priest and are supposed to AoE. Poor shadows.

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Then I guess define terms here. Pace as I've always seen is the rate / speed of the group. What you're saying is the time between pulls.

Both, really.
Although a slow tank that coughs up a battle plan before each pull has much more of an impact than a weak DPSer.

Ideally, if the healer has mana, the time between pulls should be 0 or as close as the group can get there. Esp since patrols and tactical pulls in dungeons are pretty much a non issue in FF-XIV and it's a "run to the next door and spank the all" scenario. (Aurum vale excluded >.<)

[Deleted]

Just reverse it. In WoW tanks were nothing when it started, warriors who skilled mortal strike could easily tank raid bosses like magmadar with another second or off tank (and i even doubt that was required but i was to shitty then to calculate it correctly). So what did they do? They first target something with their armor reduction and hence would make it 1st target. All dps who went against that would make every ones live suck. So... The tank picked the target.

Another difficulty was adds, DPS had to wait till a tank gathered whatever ass pulled something he didn't want to pull. And again... His authority comes by not aiming for a target without aggro. In this situation you could reverse it and simply CC a target you don't want to DPS (mage sheep for example) - a feast nostalgia dudes till this day look up to.

Later came aggro 500% on everything... meaning you hit something as tank = you got their attention. Bad people forget instantly all years before, all kits that you could do to outplay aggro suddenly became void and the tank took it on himself in the fellow years to manage everything. No more aggro split with good dps, no more kite, cc only organized and certainly not wired pulls behind a wall that opens all the time in the world to organize a pull.

The way WoW tanks are described in this thread is that they are the most distrustful, most ineffective tank since they could easily aoe aggro. Meaning the difficulty we speak of is completely twisted.

[lawow74]

WHAT in gods name are you doing with 800 ping? I fully understand that having a handicap prevents you from doing x and that is a completely valid argument.

Welcome to rural America. We don't get landline service, and there's no cell tower in LOS(not that it would matter as data caps would be ruinous to me, pretty much mean I couldn't stream any video content). That means satellite Internet is my only choice and has been for over 15 years. As it is, I can only reasonably stream things like Netflix late at night when my ISP gives me unlimited usage(this is also when they do maintenance, so at times I lose conn because of that).

The question here is do you ACTUALLY enjoy doing a dungeon that you're 45ilvl over the requirement for that provides 0 reward, that requires absolutely no skill/engagement or anything? How is playing a game "fun" for you with a debilitating 800ms handicap? I could argue that you're such an extreme outlier that catering any content to you would be doing injustice to others ya know?

But I'm not doing things that provide zero reward. And most of the time, the things I do, I do as well as I can with my ping and say fuck it if it impacts anyone else(within reason, see the no raiding thing). And they already cater content to me, I just would like to see more of the things I enjoy, and I imagine a fair amount of other people enjoy.

One of the big issues with the topic of quit vs. rise above is that I firmly believe game devs do a VERY poor job at implementing positive gameplay feedback.

<snip>

Games can and should do better jobs at providing input so you can make better decisions and learn from mistakes to be a better player.

If they wanted to implement an optional tool like that, sure. But an unstoppable nanny sitting there going 'Oh, if you did this and that you'd be doing better' would just piss people off, cos IMO the people who want to get better will and those who don't will not appreciate something nagging them about their gameplay. So that's probably why devs don't bother with such a thing, the resources expended will hurt more than help.

[The Casualty]

Well i got my ilvl190 axe and scythe. So 3 ish weeks or red scripts for Goblin Dice and these upgrade into the BiS tools for Botanist right? i've only seen the 195 ones on the marketboard.

@dope_danny

Here's some resources for you:

http://www.ffxivclock.com/
http://i.imgur.com/pjgp4GJ.png

[Kazgrel]

I'm of the opinion that FFXIV is story driven so they shouldn't cave in to such ideas.

It can go wrong very quickly

It'll be very interesting to see how they handle this particular nuance of the game going forward.

[Wrecktangle]

Surprised you don't know, especially on this particular forum.
https://m.youtube.com/user/Mionelol
That said, you're talking about how I don't know these so let's ask an expert... One of the best soloer and player in WoW.

Why would you be surprised that I don't know? I don't care about who can solo what and I'm not in the EU, the two things this player is known for. I'm at work so a youtube link isn't going to work for me, but appreciated nonetheless.

The weakest link sets the pace. If the dps is slow then the group slows down. The tank can't go faster than what the healer and dps can handle and vice versa. Anyone can severely hamper the rate of progression with ease. You can't go go go when the mobs aren't dead.

Bovinity already covered this pretty adequately. If you did M+s you'd know that it's actually EXTREMELY common to pull more adds while some adds are still alive (pending affixes, again tank needs to gauge whether appropriate, i.e. responsibility). I've been in groups where a tank will pull an entire pack in with the boss because sometimes that's optimal, even if it sometimes raises the difficulty of that specific encounter. These two points alone completely refute your statement. You also completely missed the fact that you just indirectly admitted I was right. You said and I quote: "the tank can't go faster than what the healer and DPS can handle". That means that the tank has the ADDED responsibility of gauging just how much and when he can continue pulling based on his teams needs. Does the DPS or healer have to do that? No.

The entire point of the other game is in response to your carebear garbage. If you want to flaunt skill these games aren't remotely the picks for it. Only time people use carebear is as a belittling status/level and always by elitist, otherwise no point in using it outside of just saying easy. Never have I heard anyone legitimately use it as a descriptor in a non derogatory fashion.
And yeah... Using triggered in a serious manner is kind of... sad.

Again, I can tell that somehow I triggered you because you're no longer partaking in logical discussion. If you were your responses would be both relevant and force me to reevaluate my strategy, which I haven't. I called content carebear. It was not used in any derogatory manner at all. You're simply trying to fabricate a scenario that doesn't exist and somehow label me as a villain that is belittling players. You never heard anyone use it as a descriptor legitimately? How about just now? By me?

I mean seriously, every post you've made on this topic has been overwhelmingly dismantled by others, not even just me.

With interrupts I basically mean preventing certain attacks from mobs going off so people don't need to move/less Aoe damage and stuff. Not necessarily raid bosses.
But it seems you see that as CC so now I am confused >_>.

Not talking about raid bosses. Your assumption on interrupts is correct (we had no issue with that as best I could tell we were on same page, I clarified my definition of CC because we weren't on the same page there).

The difference between interrupting in FF14 (which really isn't a thing) and WoW:Legion M+s, is that in one game there's a completely negligible change in the run, vs. a possible death/wipe. Not terribly important for the discussion though.

Only thing I am not certain of are the Mob packs static in position or do they also spawn randomly around the dungeon (I am not talking about the extra Teeming affix)

Mob placements are generally (if not always, minus patrols) static. Teeming is deceptively painful though. It not only adds mobs per pack, but mobs can also give less % which makes adapting to it very difficult. In addition some big pulls that normally would work (i.e. first room of BRH) become significantly more difficult and must be approached differently, because an extra add could be a healer that your comp may not have enough interrupts to handle 2 or 3 of them simultaneously.

I also seem to see it more of a learning process to react to certain Affixes, then always dumping the responsibility on the tank maybe its just the old burning crusader firing up in me and I am just expecting the rest of the people knowing what they need to do, when they see certain affix combinations coming up. Instead of sitting with a finger in their noose waiting for the tank to do stuff. I don't even think that I would go in without any form of voicechat for the higher mythics just to save myself a lot of stress XD.

Atm it does kinda feel if people are trying to compare 2 quite different things which you stated as well.

Its fine and dandy to expect people to know their stuff, but the bottom line is that the tank still has by far the most responsibility of the team, which was the original point of this entire topic, that Remilia has been trying to refute, albeit poorly. Voicechat definitely helps a lot in high M+, arguably mandatory in 10+.

The only thing that is similar to FF14 dungeons is either normal/heroic WoW dungeons. And I think at least in both of those Tanks have the same responsibilities.
FF14 PoTD new floors might come a little closer to the mythic system seeing it comes with random buffs/debuffs, timer and approach to clear floors. But the floors are randomly generated while in Mythics they aren't so we cant really compare those either.

The Tank paradigm in WoW still shoulders more responsibility, even if the difficulties of comparable content is similar. Once you get down to the lower difficulties you run into the issue of it doesn't really matter what anyone does. The amount of outgoing damage is so negligible that dps can stand in stuff, healers can almost afk, and tanks can just stand there not worrying about AM. The number of things a tank *should* be responsible for still remains, even if they opt to not do it.

Appeal to authority is pretty weak in this case, though. Especially when you asked a really vague question leaving out all context of the topic.

Yes, but "pace" in this case doesn't refer to how fast the mobs die. The DPS could have a button that says "kill all the mobs instantly" and it's still up to the tank to set the pace of how fast they're pulling, what they're pulling, what they're skipping, how much they're pulling, and so on.

Low DPS will make the run slower, yes. But that's not really what's being touched on here.

I'll be your archenemy any day. If it at least gives me some semblance of reasonable discussion.

I don't understand how Remelia doesn't get that Mionee didn't bother to read the entire topic (if any), other than answer his/her extremely vague one sided question. My gf gives me that shit all the time saying she asked 3 of her friends and they all agreed with her. No shit they did when you gave them a one sided story by presenting yourself as the victim and me as the villain.

I've linked the thread prior to. Nothing misleading and if someone doesn't see that the group is responsible for all actions and it shouldn't be put on the tanks then I don't know who anyone will listen to.

Then I guess define terms here. Pace as I've always seen is the rate / speed of the group. What you're saying is the time between pulls.

You were INCREDIBLY misleading based on the text you copy pasted.

He already did define it.... You just chose to either completely ignore it. it was literally the post you responded too... See below.

Yes, but "pace" in this case doesn't refer to how fast the mobs die. The DPS could have a button that says "kill all the mobs instantly" and it's still up to the tank to set the pace of how fast they're pulling, what they're pulling, what they're skipping, how much they're pulling, and so on

Welcome to rural America. We don't get landline service, and there's no cell tower in LOS(not that it would matter as data caps would be ruinous to me, pretty much mean I couldn't stream any video content). That means satellite Internet is my only choice and has been for over 15 years. As it is, I can only reasonably stream things like Netflix late at night when my ISP gives me unlimited usage(this is also when they do maintenance, so at times I lose conn because of that).

that makes me moderately sad.

But I'm not doing things that provide zero reward. And most of the time, the things I do, I do as well as I can with my ping and say fuck it if it impacts anyone else(within reason, see the no raiding thing). And they already cater content to me, I just would like to see more of the things I enjoy, and I imagine a fair amount of other people enjoy.

Meh, it depends on your definition of reward. Content that you're over 50ilvl above its recommended? That means the difficulty isn't rewarding, because its faceroll. Drops in there are completely meaningless as upgrades. That means itemization is non-rewarding. Weekly gated currency from completing? You could arguably complete more engaging/difficult content to cap that (I know for you personally the latency disqualifies that, but this is directed not at you specifically). You're not rewarded with additional story or content by completing it and its not your first time doing it, so there's no rewarding experience to be had there.

So what in a normal dungeon is actually rewarding for you?

If they wanted to implement an optional tool like that, sure. But an unstoppable nanny sitting there going 'Oh, if you did this and that you'd be doing better' would just piss people off, cos IMO the people who want to get better will and those who don't will not appreciate something nagging them about their gameplay. So that's probably why devs don't bother with such a thing, the resources expended will hurt more than help.

Again I am no game dev, but I find it suspect that you immediately jump to the idea of an unstoppable nanny lol.

I'm talking about something like Pharos Sirius pre-nerf that people struggled with. That level of difficulty that people could fail too, but it wasn't Savage Coil/Alex. They'd have to ask themselves what can I do to beat this, I'm so close I'm just missing something. For reference I find MOST EX Primals to fit into this category, I'd just love dungeons to compliment it as well. Then the GAME would supply the knowledge you need to know how to push better DPS, to utilize your heals/CDs more appropriately etc. Not saying I have a solution, but I'm not shooting the idea down on some pretty weak psychological premise either (people would be mad, won't appreciate being given hints/tips, etc.).

[lawow74]

So what in a normal dungeon is actually rewarding for you?

I get gear currency, drops are not useless as I can turn them into seals and flip them for Gil to buy things I want, and the ones I run for currency I actually like fairly well. The point is I am progressing towards a goal. If others don't find it meaningful/rewarding, so be it. You seem to constantly forget or ignore that just because YOU don't see it as rewarding, then it can't be rewarding.

I don't see Triple Triad as rewarding, IN A PERSONAL SENSE. It doesn't appeal to me. My friend who plays is nuts for it, he loved the shit out of it in FF8 or whichever it was that had it, so he loves it here. Some people love Verminion, Chocobo Racing, PvP, Savage Raid content. The point is it's there for those who want it.

Again I am no game dev, but I find it suspect that you immediately jump to the idea of an unstoppable nanny lol.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. If you try, you just piss the horse off. This is why such tools as you propose must be optional. Now, will they serve enough of the game community to be worth the resources? Maybe, maybe not. Using them as a gating device will probably piss off more people than it'll win approval from.

Not saying I have a solution, but I'm not shooting the idea down on some pretty weak psychological premise either (people would be mad, won't appreciate being given hints/tips, etc.).

See above. The psychological premise is only part of it. The real nitty-gritty is: Will developers see it as a worthwhile use of resources that could be committed elsewhere? And I'm inclined to think no. No, they don't. But only time will tell.

[Remilia]

Why would you be surprised that I don't know? I don't care about who can solo what and I'm not in the EU, the two things this player is known for. I'm at work so a youtube link isn't going to work for me, but appreciated nonetheless.

Mainly cause he gets front page posted as news on this very site, and while not as often before, posted here on this very forum.
Aside from that you should look at some of the videos some time, they're pretty good.

Bovinity already covered this pretty adequately. If you did M+s you'd know that it's actually EXTREMELY common to pull more adds while some adds are still alive (pending affixes, again tank needs to gauge whether appropriate, i.e. responsibility). I've been in groups where a tank will pull an entire pack in with the boss because sometimes that's optimal, even if it sometimes raises the difficulty of that specific encounter. These two points alone completely refute your statement. You also completely missed the fact that you just indirectly admitted I was right. You said and I quote: "the tank can't go faster than what the healer and DPS can handle". That means that the tank has the ADDED responsibility of gauging just how much and when he can continue pulling based on his teams needs. Does the DPS or healer have to do that? No.

Welcome to somehow misconstruing a pretty direct point. No way did saying that DPS and healer factor into the speed of the run factor turn into me saying tanks have more responsibility without adding something extra to my statement that I never made.

Again, I can tell that somehow I triggered you because you're no longer partaking in logical discussion. If you were your responses would be both relevant and force me to reevaluate my strategy, which I haven't. I called content carebear. It was not used in any derogatory manner at all. You're simply trying to fabricate a scenario that doesn't exist and somehow label me as a villain that is belittling players. You never heard anyone use it as a descriptor legitimately? How about just now? By me?

I mean seriously, every post you've made on this topic has been overwhelmingly dismantled by others, not even just me.

There is technically nothing of logical in terms of arguing semantics and connotation of words. That said, the fact how you talk about triggered and carebear really does show you don't have an understanding of how it portrays you. And yes, carebear is very often used by elitist and derogatory. Urban dictionary is not a good source by all means but it gives you an idea of what it means on the internet.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=carebear
Personally I find elitism annoying and dumb in general, and your behavior is very portrayal of it even as noted by someone else beforehand. Call it triggered by all means since that's how you see it, but it's really a thing to point out to you.

You were INCREDIBLY misleading based on the text you copy pasted.

He already did define it.... You just chose to either completely ignore it. it was literally the post you responded too... See below.

I literally said what you posted, that you put a huge responsibility on tanks should be cc, kite, dps, etc.

Better wording really should have bee done on my part in terms of defining terms as it was meant to make clear of it.

And yeah, one thing Zahard brought up really, is that you guys make tanks seem extremely distrustful and easily aoe aggro. Again, what's wrong with group responsibility again instead of putting so much emphasis on the tank.

[Remilia]

Presenting what an "authority" says as fact purely because an "authority" said so does indeed fall under that fallacy.

There are also, "Appeal to unqualified authority" and other aspects of the topic, but standard old "appeal to authority" is still a fallacy all its own.

So, tell me then, does all dps and healer suddenly take no responsibility in ccing, kiting, interrupting and so forth? Cause that was kind of the point, that the group should be held equally responsible. It's a statement I said very early on that the group should be the ones to handle and not have the tank be so heavily emphasized. Unless something so drastic changed in the game that healers and dps has no utility now. Don't classes have sap, polymorph, interrupts, silences and so forth that aren't the tank? Shouldn't it be objectively better at the start of a pull the one that focuses on a pull is not the one to be CCing and if kiting is needed as it can all happen concurrently. And for kiting a dps like frost, arcane or whatever class that has a ranged slow objectively better to kite if the damage output by the mobs is too much.

And it wasn't so much trying to pass it on as fact but so much to reinforce what I'm already saying, since apparently I'm not qualified to say such statements.

[Tome]

My friend bought the wrong edition when she just wanted to buy the expansion Heavensward. She bought the whole game + the expansion. She tried to refund it to instead buy the expansion only, but the support refused it and keep refusing it. Now she got annoyed by them so she's making a forced payback by her bank.

Welp, really annoying since I wanted to play with her and all.

[blackblade]

My friend bought the wrong edition when she just wanted to buy the expansion Heavensward. She bought the whole game + the expansion. She tried to refund it to instead buy the expansion only, but the support refused it and keep refusing it. Now she got annoyed by them so she's making a forced payback by her bank.

Welp, really annoying since I wanted to play with her and all.

did she get two keys or one key for both?

[Eleccybubb]

My friend bought the wrong edition when she just wanted to buy the expansion Heavensward. She bought the whole game + the expansion. She tried to refund it to instead buy the expansion only, but the support refused it and keep refusing it. Now she got annoyed by them so she's making a forced payback by her bank.

Welp, really annoying since I wanted to play with her and all.

Yeah support for FF14 has always been godawful. I've had a couple of bad ones and a couple of good ones. Problem is Online buys the bundle so she should have just bought Heavensward on it's own. Unless it was Steam but the way you make it out it doesn't sound like she went through Steam.