[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Melsiren]

Well, so far we've seen only Kugane, so it's hard to say if other parts of the country are different.

First thing I can tell you is the fact there is no real Samurai caste, many of the Kugane peace keeper Samurai come from poor farmer families.

I am willing to bet they have a Shogan but there is no hint of an Emperor, unless I missed something. I expect the Encyclopedia part 2 to cover those details.


I also would not be too quick to dismiss the Xaela religion from being similar to Tengerism/Mongolian Shamanism whatever name floats your boat. Because we know very little of the Pantheon out side of the Dawn father and Dusk Mother, both of which could easily just be half of Tengri who is just the lord of the Sky with Dawn and Dusk being half the sky each.

That's not going into the other unnamed gods and who ever/what ever Karash is.

[lawow74]

But if one was to ask, "How is Hingashi different from feudal Japan?" That's a very hard question to answer. And there should be *some* differences.

To me it's pretty obvious why it is the way it is. This is a Japanese game, so yeah, they're gonna wave their national e-peen a little. I thought that was made clear the moment all the NPC's show up there and act like they all just orgasmed from seeing the place. :3

[tommyhil622]

I think I see your point. Hingashi is a little too "on the nose". If we look at the Xaela in the Azim Steppes, they're clearly inspired by the Mongols. But there's also a lot of differences: religion, tribe types/beliefs, etc.

If we look at Ishgard, there are a lot of similarities to western medieval countries. But there are differences: it's a theocracy, not a monarchy, the dragonsong war makes the entire society more militaristic.

But if one was to ask, "How is Hingashi different from feudal Japan?" That's a very hard question to answer. And there should be *some* differences.

Yep agreed and well said. It would have helped if i clarified early on i didn't want to give a wrong impression. But you explained it better than i did.

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Well, so far we've seen only Kugane, so it's hard to say if other parts of the country are different.

Yea it's mostly Kugane. Just when i first got in there it was the only place where i was like wow i'm in a real world location, not ff. That initial shock. Nothing more to it other than that. But yea i'm aware it's a Japanese game etc. But as an example FF11 had almost no areas that was a full on almost real world reprenstation of Japan or any other country. And that game is still going on today and was successfully able to create a world that was its own thing with elements of different cultures countries eras and it was the same company and it was from Japan So its possible.

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To me it's pretty obvious why it is the way it is. This is a Japanese game, so yeah, they're gonna wave their national e-peen a little. I thought that was made clear the moment all the NPC's show up there and act like they all just orgasmed from seeing the place. :3

See above

[Katchii]

In many other MMORPGs?

The MSQ (or the mainstoryline quest, to be general) being self sufficent is not something that always that way. Yes quest chains gave rewards but alot of time you still needed to aquire gear elswhere, being crafting, buying or pursuing a other quest rather then the mainstory one, to get more gear cause the next "story" enemies were too strong.


There is no law that Quests must throw gear at you.

This is especially dumb in FFXIV where there is actually a MSQ which you MUST do and the bait is the story so you need gear rewards even less then other mmos.

Its singleplayer and uninteractive with other player and the world as it gets. Brillant gamedesign




The same as above applies.



Someone asked here to have gear vendors for leveling. So you are the one who are arguing in hyperbole, or rather simply lying. I did not mention something about free.



Timegating is only a thing for people that cant handle their life, which appreantly mmorpgs seems to attract off.

Is really simple. If timegating didnt exist what is the problem? Right the player that complains that he cant do all that stuff while playing for 30 minutes a day and demands that everyone needs the same restriction

Just clarifying, I don't remember anyone asking for vendors for leveling, I think someone mentioned that in a response to one of my posts. The point is this: If the MSQ has gearing requirements in order to progress, playing the MSQ should equip you with all of the stuff you need in order to progress within it. Whether that's a vendor that uses MSQ tokens or whatever to sell you gear, or direct quest rewards, or whatever... just a method that doesn't require you to hard stop on progressing the MSQ and go grind/farm with little or no warning.

I think this applies to leveling as well, but that doesn't necessarily mean the MSQ alone will give you everything yo uneed, just that the MSQ will guide you through the process of getting what you need. For leveling, rather than just having a hard stop that says you can't progress until you reach X level, have the MSQ take you to a quest hub, and you can't progress until you've completed the quests in the area...which would ensure you're of the appropriate level to take on the next quest.

My issue isn't really that there's a gear requirement, or a hard stop in the leveling process, it's that it FEELS like a hard stop and completely disrupts the feel and flow of the MSQ. If the MSQ integrated that as part of itself, and naturally guided the character through the stuff needed to progress, I'd feel better about it....but it feels ridiculous when the MSQ takes you by the hand and takes you right up to the next big trial or dungeon encounter and pushes this sense of urgency..only for a level or gear wall to be there and then you have to divert from it for however long it takes you to meet the new, previously unknown requirement.

[Kazgrel]

I mean...do people expect to be able to clear all the MSQ from 4.1-4.55 in ilvl 290 gear? Then you’re looking at 5.0 and it either being hilariously undertuned early on for folks who play throughout the end of SB and walk out in ilvl 400 gear. If that’s what folks want, best to just buy each xpac, clear whatever.0, then unsub 2 years and come back for the next xpac (which is when they add gear to all the patches in quests as a catch up).

They have to have some sort of impetus for having people play the game more than a couple hours every few months, like it or not.

For the record, I totally wish more MMOs took the not-so vertical prog approach that the Guild Wars series has had.

[Granyala]

Just clarifying, I don't remember anyone asking for vendors for leveling, I think someone mentioned that in a response to one of my posts.

That would be me.
I said that, beacause giving gear for completing the MSQ is pretty much the same thing: Freebies for doing nothing of note.
So umm.. yeah, essentially you and other people with your mindset of "MSQ should prep me for the end boss" are asking for exactly that: free gear in order to eliminate the minimum item level.

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I mean...do people expect to be able to clear all the MSQ from 4.1-4.55 in ilvl 290 gear?

No, apparently they expect the MSQ to hand out i335+ gear by the time they reach Tsuyu, so they can instantly queue and bash her head in.

[Granyala]

For the record, I totally wish more MMOs took the not-so vertical prog approach that the Guild Wars series has had.

GW2 sucked in that regard. I never understood why we had to level in that game in the first place.
Gear was irrelevant, leveling was a lame time sink and content was a zergfest. (I never played much after the initial release b/c I was all alone, so that could have changed)

Only good thing was the beauty of the world. Exploring it was REALLY fun.
Barring weird jump'n'run aspects that just don't work very well in a game tied to internet latency. >.<

[Kazgrel]

GW2 sucked in that regard. I never understood why we had to level in that game in the first place.
Gear was irrelevant, leveling was a lame time sink and content was a zergfest. (I never played much after the initial release b/c I was all alone, so that could have changed)

Only good thing was the beauty of the world. Exploring it was REALLY fun.
Barring weird jump'n'run aspects that just don't work very well in a game tied to internet latency. >.<

Unfortunately I don’t have time to dig up where it was stated, but I recall early concepts for GW2 had it being a level-less system. I wouldn’t be opposed to such an approach (Star Wars Galaxies loosely had this).

[Granyala]

Unfortunately I don’t have time to dig up where it was stated, but I recall early concepts for GW2 had it being a level-less system. I wouldn’t be opposed to such an approach (Star Wars Galaxies loosely had this).

I know but if I remember correctly, either the DEVs said that it just felt like sth was missing or it was people in beta that couldn't cope, which is why they hastily tacked on levels (which you could feel pretty bad because the game kept scaling you back at every darn opportunity >.< ).

[Wrecktangle]

Improving your characters stats has been a common theme for all MMO's though. I was curious to see what others thought would happen if that was removed entirely. You'd still keep the traditional leveling systems in place, only remove the gear. When all is said and done, I don't believe that in current MMO's, the content's appeal alone is enough of a reason to keep people playing without the gear also being a factor.

Raw numerical output is largely irrelevant to me. Whether I do 4.5K DPS or 4.5M DPS means nothing. What I want to feel is myself becoming more powerful and there are ways to accomplish that without relying on just bigger numbers. It's why I picked on Life Surge (the DRG cooldown) so much. It simply makes your next attack an auto-crit. This is functionally a useless ability. Critting doesn't allow me to do anything I couldn't before or give me anything additional. If I have numbers turned off, I'd never even notice the difference.

I posited to @Faroth once about my "Dream MMO". It had gear, but gear wasn't the main power gain. Skills were. As you leveled you accrued skill points to invest in your character. These could be used to develop new skills (to overcome challenges you were struggling with or a new toy you wanted to play with) or to empower existing ones with additional effects and traits.

The idea was that leveling was fairly trivial. It happened pretty commonly and ultimately as a number didn't matter because all content scaled to your current level +/- a margin. You could offset that margin via gear or stat point allocations. Leveling was merely present to provide you with a consistent source of skill and stat points to invest in your character.

One example would be let's say my Paladin archetype character developed a long range projectile technique that launched a wave of holy energy at an enemy. I could invest skill points in it to increase missile speed, damage, reduce recovery frames, reduce resource costs, allow use in air, explode on hit, stun, etc. Every effect you added had negative effects to offset it, that means skill points are always valuable. Like if you added damage, it would add a negative effect maybe raising resource cost, slowing recovery, etc. Obviously gains were always higher than losses.

I mean...do people expect to be able to clear all the MSQ from 4.1-4.55 in ilvl 290 gear?

Honestly yes. I very firmly believe the MSQ alone should supply you with everything you need to complete the MSQ and I'm a huge proponent of the idea of content forms encouraging you to participate in other forms. I'm pretty confident you could still have Tsuki NM be appropriately difficult without relying on an i335 wall TBH.

[lawow74]

Honestly yes. I very firmly believe the MSQ alone should supply you with everything you need to complete the MSQ and I'm a huge proponent of the idea of content forms encouraging you to participate in other forms. I'm pretty confident you could still have Tsuki NM be appropriately difficult without relying on an i335 wall TBH.

I'd have no problem either, cos all the REEE CAZULZ IN MUH KONTENTS types will bitch about people regardless of their gear, since it's seldom gear that's the issue to begin with, but lack of knowledge and/or desire to improve that lack that causes the issues. It's not the game failing to equip them or teach them, it's the players who are at fault and no amount of walls to climb or hoops to jump will ever change that fact.

[Katchii]

That would be me.
I said that, beacause giving gear for completing the MSQ is pretty much the same thing: Freebies for doing nothing of note.
So umm.. yeah, essentially you and other people with your mindset of "MSQ should prep me for the end boss" are asking for exactly that: free gear in order to eliminate the minimum item level.

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No, apparently they expect the MSQ to hand out i335+ gear by the time they reach Tsuyu, so they can instantly queue and bash her head in.

It wouldn't be free though, you'd still need to actually progress through the MSQ, passing the trials and dungeons and challenges, to get the gear. We just wouldn't have had to grind for it like you had to up to this point. I feel like that's what you're more agitated about here is that now people would be earning gear faster for doing things you already did and I didn't get it that way so it's not fair...they should have to work just as hard as I did to get it. Which may be a valid sentiment, but seems more based on emotion rather than logic.

It still hasn't been answered why this would be a BAD thing? Sure you don't like it, feel it's too hand holdy, don't agree with the sentiment...but why is it BAD? Why is forcing the player to hit a hard wall, with no warning, and then go grind for hours a GOOD thing?

The MSQ wouldn't even have to reward it, it could still be off the tome vendor and require you to do exactly what you're doing now. If the MSQ directed you to go do these things as you were getting up to these points, maybe integrated this rise in character power into the questing story, it wouldn't feel so bad. It's the wall I don't like, having to go do other content isn't the problem, it's the sudden stop in the MSQ progression with absolutely no warning or direction as to how or where to go to correct the issue and get over that wall. Obviously the answer is, "get better gear" but where exactly? How is a player getting back into the game supposed to know all of the things thay can or should do to get the gear they need? It's not like dungeons have an indicator on them that says what level of gear they drop. Also if the answer is dungeons, that's pretty shitty simply because queues are a thing for half of every group, and queues can SUCK, especially for folks that already have limited play time. So asking them to sit around waiting for a queue to pop doing one of two things 1) Nothing or 2) something that doesn't solve the problem they're currently trying to fix, is not at all fun.

[Kazgrel]

They have to provide some sort of impetus to actually play the game for more than a hour every 3-4 months, even if their current method is ham fisted. The requirements should be no more than the previous dungeons drops. That would put Tsuku normal at 325 to enter. Running content no further above the dungeons would clear that ilvl (between drops and creation gone gear. Yes, that would put 4.4 MSQ at 345 ilvl, but between mendacity gear and new dungeons, easily attained.

[Aruhen]

You could have easily participated off gear earned from Mythic+. I mean there was no tier until NH. I had my +15 well before NH dropped so theoretically you could of as well. Raid gear vs. M+ gear was largely identical at this point.

M+ was hardly about the gear though. It was about clever use of abilities, consumables, and skill. I also vehemently disagree with the concept that trash was the boss.

Notable bosses we struggled with on high tyrannical keys:

Maw 1st Boss - Ymir. His Dark Slash literally logged into the database, found my buddies character (DK) and pressed the delete key. That's what it did to him. He simply didn't have the cooldowns to tank the boss before he died. So we developed strategies to accomodate this. He'd CD, then I'd bubble taunt, then he'd CD, then our Hunter sacced a pet, then he'd CD, then my brother CD's, etc. Not only that in order to do enough DPS to the boss we had to let people who were better at adds kill adds, while others focused boss.

Nelth's Lair - Worm Boss. That thing was an impassable wall for a while. It simply did a staggering amount of damage to all players, at all times. had to get really crafty and master positioning and healing to get it down.

BRH 3rd Boss - we actually ran out of room to kite his slime one time. That was an interesting way to wipe. Had to figure out where we could soak more damage, to let the healer DPS more, and to reorder charge debuffs.

I could go on with another 5-6 examples easily, but you get my point I hope.

Now that's not to say trash wasn't an issue, because it was at times. Pelters, Breakers, Imps, BRH in its entirety, etc. There was dangerous trash.

I was mostly comparing CMs and M+ when it comes to gear. With Mists I could jump in at any point in the expansion and for the most part be fine. M+ on the other hand I'd be laughed at if I tried to do a 15 and higher key with my EN gear. Now I'm not saying that I feel entitled to join a 20+ with my EN gear but just that I prefer one system over the other.

For reference these days I'm just a casual pleb who farms glamour during the one month a year that I play WoW. Yeah it doesn't take long to catch up but honestly I'm just not in the mood. It's been the same since Dragon Soul and with that the Mists system fits me more. I can care less about being up to date and more about just doing it. Of course yes M+ is more about actually being smart with your toolkit but lets be honest you can't do high keys with heroic dungeon level gear. Its just not possible.

Its similar to the old Persona 3 vs Persona 4 argument we had here. Yes I agree P4 is better but I still like P3 because of how I play nowadays.

As far as the boss vs trash stuff maybe I just didn't get my point across well. I agree with you. With high enough keys and affixes bosses actually matter. Well I say that while I play a BrM monk who "shrugs" it off, literally.

[Melsiren]

I remember an immersion argument used once for this 4.3 MSQ issue. What if they had an extra quest at the very start of the chain that made you pass a gear examination for average item level? Sorta like the quest from 2.0 near the start where you need to pass an inspection by a flame/storm/serpent commander? That way you don't get to the primal and have to break the immersion by gearing up.

Its similar to the old Persona 3 vs Persona 4 argument we had here. Yes I agree P4 is better but I still like P3 because of how I play nowadays.

Would I be opening up an old can can of worms if I said P3 was better?

[Aruhen]

Possibly. Heck I'll even say that I prefer FFTA over the original.

[Eleccybubb]

I remember an immersion argument used once for this 4.3 MSQ issue. What if they had an extra quest at the very start of the chain that made you pass a gear examination for average item level? Sorta like the quest from 2.0 near the start where you need to pass an inspection by a flame/storm/serpent commander? That way you don't get to the primal and have to break the immersion by gearing up.



Would I be opening up an old can can of worms if I said P3 was better?

Would I be opening an even bigger one in that I think Persona 5 is arguably the best in the series? :O

[Melsiren]

Would I be opening an even bigger one in that I think Persona 5 is arguably the best in the series? :O

Nope because you are right.

P5>P3>P4

All three are great though and have faults.

[Granyala]

It wouldn't be free though, you'd still need to actually progress through the MSQ, passing the trials and dungeons and challenges

Stop contradicting yourself, you want the gear BEFORE you enter the dungeons and challenges. So yes: it is essentially free quest gear.

I don't have a problem with this because it does not affect active players if SE inputs that gear (or uses the old tome gear) as quest rewards later on. Me thinks they already do this but only on expac release? Never leveled an alt, so I don't know for sure.

[Katchii]

Stop contradicting yourself, you want the gear BEFORE you enter the dungeons and challenges. So yes: it is essentially free quest gear.

I don't have a problem with this because it does not affect active players if SE inputs that gear (or uses the old tome gear) as quest rewards later on. Me thinks they already do this but only on expac release? Never leveled an alt, so I don't know for sure.

I'm not contradicting myself, the gear walls don't start right away and there are trials and dungeons to complete before you get to them. I'm saying add the gear to the quests before the hike in ilevel requirement. Giving it as a gear reward after you complete the gear wall trial would be silly, because that means you would have had to grind for the gear beforehand, rendering the reward obsolete before you even get it.