The dumbest/worst argument in the history of MMORPGS.

[Seosaimhin]

What I don't understand is why it's a bad thing for players who aren't cream of the crop to be able to do heroics. Why can't someone who's not a "top player" work on HM bosses? Normal-mode bosses are so laughably easy that "average" players on the higher-end of the scale (but aren't quite good enough to down most of the HM content) have nothing to do for the rest of the expansion except farm the same disappointingly easy raid difficulty. Saying they have no right to work their way through the content isn't really fair, particularly when a team is doing the best it can and yet has no hope of getting Zon'ozz down.

Basically...there are NOT only two types of players out there - elite and casual. There are players out there who may not be elite but are better than casual, who find the content of normal and LFR mode just as easy as the elite players do, and who want their own challenge.

Though nerfs to heroic content seem game-breaking to people who can get the content down (or at least progress at a reasonable pace) pre-nerf, there are TONS of guilds out there who have hit walls. They simply don't have the power to get through the red/yellow/black phase on Yor'sahj, or lack the precise coordination they need for Hagara's ice phase. That doesn't make them bad...just not as good as the cream of the crop players. This nerf isn't going to make this content "ez mode for casuals." It's going to make HM for those players hitting a wall feel a little more like HM did for the top players who were progressing just fine pre-nerf. It just doesn't doesn't feel like that to the top players because they don't need the nerf.

Furthermore...this is an optional nerf. If you don't like it, don't use it. The argument "but if you're competitive and you want to keep up with the other guilds, you have to use it!" is stupid. If it bothers you that badly, then use it to be competitive, and once you get your bosses down competitively-speaking, turn it off and start progressing that way. There is no reason an OPTIONAL buff should cause such a big uproar.

Sometimes I wish I hadn't started hardcore raiding. I felt so cool actually getting bosses down on normal mode in current-content on a small server, and even more awesome when I was getting heroics down after moving to a larger server...but now most of what I see from hardcore raiding peers is complaints about how non-hardcore players are getting to see this special tier of content apparently not designed for them. I think it's pretty neat that players who aren't necessarily the best get to still have that feeling of awesomeness when they down a heroic boss like I did, even if it's nerfed.

[Yomario]

I like the nerfs honestly. I play on an RP server where Heroic Nefarian was killed a month ago. Upcoming 'optional' nerfs will help bring us from 5th worst to possibly 6th worst server!!!

[Zamfix]

I never understood why people who want to raid but don't have the time to do so still pay for a game they don't have time to play.

[coldbear]

I agree with OP.

What Blizz /should/ do, to fit in with Lore and to make it a proper MMO, is after the World First kills a boss - that boss is dead. At that point no-one else can fight/kill/loot that boss. Stop catering to all these casuals.

EDIT: Let trash respawn - that way people can still farm RFC for xp.

Or how about just making the bosses have slightly randomized names with perhaps a few different random abilities - not entirely like the named in Diablo 2, but sort of like that? That way the big quest can be about "Big monster dragon X has taken over the dungeon - go kill X and we'll reward you with <this>"?

[Icefyre7]

I really hate that argument that has been used so frequently, people praise it as if its why WoW is so good, but imo its the opposite, just look at the history. This argument has effictively killed all sense of challenge and this making boredom reach all new levels.

Vanilla - No nerfing/easying of content as has been seen in Cataclysm, progress through raids to reach more raids. MUCH of the population did not raid hardcore. The subs grew exponentially, nailing its success as an MMO (hard to compare vanilla though), 1 level of difficulty per boss

BC - More of the same, improvements, PvP. HUGE AMOUNTS OF RAIDS. 1 level of difficulty per boss. - MASSIVE theme of progression (5mannormals->5manHCs->Kara->gruuls->mag->SSC+TK etc), new 5mans didnt come out so you couldnt SKIP content (like no1 does t11/t12 now). With the exception of the Sunwell instance
subscriptions rise

Wrath - Improved questing, glyphs, same type of Raid format, only 1 level of difficulty for a boss (in its respective 10man/25man instance). Subs rise and peak at the highest point in WoWs history. Naxx and Ulduar follow this format.
However... Ulduar introduces something new, an option to make the fight harder... as a reward you get an achievement and a few pieces of better than usual loot. Not the exact same item set with the "heroic" title attached to it.
Then came ToC, the most embarrassing raid in existence. Literally, it was "how can we make a raid in the shortest amount of time". a 2-room raid, tiny amount of bosses. and FOUR different levels(10N, 10H, 25N, 25H).

This becomes the norm, ICC arrives, subs rise, new 5mans, the idea of skipping content becomes real by using 5mans


Cataclysm -> So here we are in cata, with the least amount of raid content ever both BOSS wise and simply RAID wise. Being able to skip content, having a Normal/Hardmode and now even an EASY/Normal/Hardmode. Able to SKIP content via ZA/ZG, new 5mans, appealing to the player base more than ever! Everyone can see everything!
and
Subs fall more than they ever have before.
Just look at the front page of MMO Champ.


Q1 2011 - 600,000 subscribers lost
Q2 2011 - 300,000 subscribers lost
Q3 2011 - 800,000 subscribers lost


So its rather amusing when people talk about the "Cataclysm" method, you'd think they'd want to stick with the method that DOESNT lose them subs?

[Deleted]

Blizz is being very wise catering to people with less time to play.
Everyone wants to have fun. And Blizz wants a profit.
If "hardcore" want to play hardcore - they can, no one restricts them.
The thread is really about boosting one's ego.

[Valort]

this has nothing to do with seeing content

this is that HM has been nerfed so more people can now do hardmodes, which defeats the purpose of the higher challenge of hard modes if u take away the challenge.

while LFR and normal modes exist

You mean, actually allowing the un-sponsored HM guilds to get a slice of the cake? Not to mention they did say the "buff" can be turned off by talking to an NPC there, so the guys getting a woody from being hardcore can still be hardcore.

I forgot the idea was keeping it extremely hard so ONLY elitists with sponsor-given peripherals and "clever use of game mechanics" were the only ones allowed to beat an end-game boss in heroic... Sorry, sorry! I completely forgot!

When I find me a sugar daddy to pay my sub and peripherals so I can debug a fight, I'll change my opinion to suit your's.

Seriously, top raiders should drop the hipster attitude, all you hear now is "Was cool before everyone did it!" and "I was killing Deathwing before it was cool!"

[GennGreymane]

You mean, actually allowing the un-sponsored HM guilds to get a slice of the cake?

I forgot the idea was keeping it extremely hard so ONLY elitists with sponsor-given peripherals and "clever use of game mechanics" were the only ones allowed to beat an end-game boss in heroic... Sorry, sorry! I completely forgot!

When I find me a sugar daddy to pay my sub and peripherals so I can debug a fight, I'll change my opinion to suit your's.

so you want hard modes to be easier so you can also do them? because you do not have the time to dedicate to doing much harder and more time dedicating content?

arnt the fights the same for the most part in LFR and normal mode? exept easier and able to be done by you?

[Polybius]

I really hate that argument that has been used so frequently, people praise it as if its why WoW is so good, but imo its the opposite, just look at the history. This argument has effictively killed all sense of challenge and this making boredom reach all new levels.

BC - More of the same, improvements, PvP. HUGE AMOUNTS OF RAIDS. 1 level of difficulty per boss. - MASSIVE theme of progression (5mannormals->5manHCs->Kara->gruuls->mag->SSC+TK etc), new 5mans didnt come out so you couldnt SKIP content (like no1 does t11/t12 now). With the exception of the Sunwell instance
subscriptions rise

Wrath - Improved questing, glyphs, same type of Raid format, only 1 level of difficulty for a boss (in its respective 10man/25man instance). Subs rise and peak at the highest point in WoWs history. Naxx and Ulduar follow this format.
However... Ulduar introduces something new, an option to make the fight harder... as a reward you get an achievement and a few pieces of better than usual loot. Not the exact same item set with the "heroic" title attached to it.
Then came ToC, the most embarrassing raid in existence. Literally, it was "how can we make a raid in the shortest amount of time". a 2-room raid, tiny amount of bosses. and FOUR different levels(10N, 10H, 25N, 25H).

This becomes the norm, ICC arrives, subs rise, new 5mans, the idea of skipping content becomes real by using 5mans


Cataclysm -> So here we are in cata, with the least amount of raid content ever both BOSS wise and simply RAID wise. Being able to skip content, having a Normal/Hardmode and now even an EASY/Normal/Hardmode. Able to SKIP content via ZA/ZG, new 5mans, appealing to the player base more than ever! Everyone can see everything!
and
Subs fall more than they ever have before.
Just look at the front page of MMO Champ.


So its rather amusing when people talk about the "Cataclysm" method, you'd think they'd want to stick with the method that DOESNT lose them subs?

I totally agree with this. Even though content difficulty is not changing the game, the amount of content is. It bores the players who want difficult content to death with all the grind-fests.

[Zoldor]

Worst argument is Blizzard claiming "We don't have the resources to bring you X"

This is a lie, or well not a lie just a twisted truth. We have the resources but we don't want to spend them on that, but instead we'll just claim we lack the resources totally. /gets into Ferrari.

[Deleted]

1. There is no appeal for most of us in watching somebody else play a game we can't.
2. We don't want them to remove difficult content, just give us access to seeing all the content at a lower difficulty setting.
3. No hobby should require such large amounts of time and for you to organise a schedule around it. A quick push of a button should be all that is needed.

Bolding the parts you want to reply to and taking them out of context eh?

1. You don't speak for "most of us" (whoever that is), and watching videos is but one part of what goes on. Being aware of the world first race is example enough)
2. a) This doesn't make any sense. If you see all the content at a lower difficulty setting, it is no longer difficult content.
b) You already see all the content. This is what "normal mode" and "LFR" is for. You may of heard of these features. You probably also argued that they were fine "because the hardcores get their heroic mode" well guess what, now they're losing that too. But wah wah wah I'm a paying customer I deserve everything under the sun we get it.
3. It doesn't require large amounts of time. I know many guilds and players who commit 2-3 nights a week at most to raiding and do fine. This is you assuming everyone who raids heroics spends 5 hours going at it every night. "A quick push of a button should be all that is needed"? Guess what else this describes...

[Dch48]

No, it's actually the best argument and the best way for any MMO to succeed and endure. Catering to the elite few is never the way to go. It seems in some Blue posts recently that they have finally realized that and don't care any more if the perpetual whiners go away. The game would be a better and more enjoyable place if they did.

[melodramocracy]

Yes, if people pay for the game, they deserve to see every part of it.

That's what multiple difficulty levels are for. If you honestly think that there should be no difficulty level at all that impedes a player for any length of time, video games simply aren't for you.

This thread is teeming with folks who simply refuse to believe that they simply aren't experienced enough, or focused enough to raid successfully at a heroic level. So instead of just facing the reality of it and a) moving on to some other fun aspect of the game or b) making strides to improve, they demand that the highest difficulties be brought down to them. It's a completely absurd argument.

[Zoldor]

The worst part is now after world firsts are over why even continue to raid at a higher difficulty. Now knowing the nerfs are coming you can just take a month off comeback and face roll the nerfed content in a few weeks and be done. Raiding is essentially now about building scrubs Legendary items. Why raid something when its super hard when you can wait 6 to 8 weeks and have no problem crushing it in a night. The scary part is, all this does is make being in a guild less important to raiding end game and takes away more of the community. It also takes away the incentive to raiding. Its like why be rich and have nice things and work hard for them when 8 weeks from now everyone is getting that pay raise and all the nice things you have with way less effort.

[melodramocracy]

2. We don't want them to remove difficult content, just give us access to seeing all the content at a lower difficulty setting.
3. No hobby should require such large amounts of time and for you to organise a schedule around it. A quick push of a button should be all that is needed.

2. That's already in place, no nerfs needed.
3. I hope for your sake that this isn't your approach to life in general.

[GennGreymane]

No, it's actually the best argument and the best way for any MMO to succeed and endure. Catering to the elite few is never the way to go. It seems in some Blue posts recently that they have finally realized that and don't care any more if the perpetual whiners go away. The game would be a better and more enjoyable place if they did.

its not catering to anyone, hard modes are for the better players. notice how diff the fights are in LFR and normal mode? in DS especially? its not very different between difficulty

you can and will see the content

but why do you now need to nerf the highest difficulty to try it?

[Rédempteur]

No, because you have the ability to see all the content... you're just not good enough to do so. Not all of us are amazing at WoW raiding, I'm not, you're not, but the content is available so we pay for it.

Best reply in this thread.

They should nerf Veteran difficulty in Call of Duty, i can't get past chapter 2, and i paid the game 70$ WTF C'MON INFINITY WARD!

[Crawford]

In bold for you. This argument has done more to destroy the culture of mmorpgs than any lack luster content patch ever has (IMO). Incredible, there is no faster way to kill a game than to give everything away. It's hard to believe the "I pay 15$ a month! I want to "see" everthing!" argument has officially won.

He was being snide. They tune the content at release for world first competitions, and then they nerf it a few weeks after the first kills. If they didn't nerf the raids, probably fewer than 5000 people would ever complete the heroic mode of any raid. That's not healthy for the game.

I absolutely grasp the commitment demanded by the launch-versions of Heroic Ragnaros or Heroic Spine, and there is no significant community of raiders that is committed enough to down those encounters in their launch condition. Even after 20-25% nerfs to health and damage in heroic encounters, fewer than 200,000 players out of over 4 million North American and European accounts had heroic Ragnaros kills.

It's fine that not everyone can do every difficulty. It's not fine when nobody does the hardest difficulty. It's extraordinary that Blizzard tunes encounters specifically for the best hundred or so guilds for the first six to eight weeks. It would be stupid if they devoted resources to content that never got used by anyone but the best hundred guilds.

[melodramocracy]

Its like why be rich and have nice things and work hard for them when 8 weeks from now everyone is getting that pay raise and all the nice things you have with way less effort.

Yeah, life doesn't really work like that at all, but ok.

[Deleted]

He was being snide. They tune the content at release for world first competitions, and then they nerf it a few weeks after the first kills. If they didn't nerf the raids, probably fewer than 5000 people would ever complete the heroic mode of any raid. That's not healthy for the game.

False. Superhardcore guilds basically clear the heroic difficulty with gear from the previous tier. By the time standard guilds get there they are in gear from the current tier and thus can do the fights anyway.

Part 2: Superhardcore guilds burn entire days raiding to learn the fights. Normal guilds will do this too over a greater timespan and eventually they will prevail. And when the challenge is thusly overcome its a special moment. Not so special if the content is easy and everyone is overcoming the same encounter with ease due to nerfs. Its easy to dismiss as bragging rights but it is more than that. It would be like doing the high jump at 2 metres for a gold medal but finding everyone else has already jumped it at 1 metre and received the same medal.