A question about tank threat

[Arazen]

The thing about this Tier, is that it's more about magical damage and enrage timers and thus you could argue that Warrior tanks like all other tanks should prioritize other stats such as Expertise and Hit.

Playing a Bear myself and through my gear, I'm Expertise and almost Hit capped. I bet you I wouldn't have any issues with gaining/maintaining aggro over that DK. But as a note, the Warrior has a longer ramp up time and that's just how it is. I tanked with a Warrior through Firelands and he had the same issue but at the same time it's not like it's impossible for a Warrior to maintain aggro.

Many others have given advice on how to make it easier for your Warrior OP. The only thing I'll add is to get some Expertise.

This.

@OP: Pool rage, intervene, taunt and use heroic throw. Get off a shield-block-buffed shield slam right after and your warrior should be fine.
However, do not tell your warrior to get hit-capped, because you can avoid these situations through proper play by 100%. Also there is a lot the raid can do, too. Have your rogues and hunters MD your warrior after a taunt or let a paladin use Hand of Salvation.
If your warrior's gear is awesome and you steamroll the content, you may consider reforging into expertise, which is by far the best threat stat, but in most cases, don't.

[Dracodraco]

Why doesn't he swap out of BP when it's the other tank's turn?

Because switching out of blood presence into unholy makes him unable to rune strike if hes not tanking something, his GBC gets lowered from 1.5 to 1 sec while his rune cooldowns gets ~0.70 sec more on them - basicly, he might as well stop attacking due to all the negative effects dpsing in anything but blood presence will have on a blood DK (and same goes for frost presence, no rune strikes, rune cds upped by 2 seconds, etc).

[Aquamonkey]

Because switching out of blood presence into unholy makes him unable to rune strike if hes not tanking something, his GBC gets lowered from 1.5 to 1 sec while his rune cooldowns gets ~0.70 sec more on them - basicly, he might as well stop attacking due to all the negative effects dpsing in anything but blood presence will have on a blood DK (and same goes for frost presence, no rune strikes, rune cds upped by 2 seconds, etc).

I'm sorry, my English is not so good. You're saying that switching presence is worse dps than not attacking at all?

[Deleted]

I feel you OP, i run Paladin tank and i normally start tanking 1st. When the other tank, normal pala or DK taunt off me, even normal swings put me at high threat. I just boiled it down to vengeance. You gain so much, so fast now-a-days your TPS is just so high. I normally just wait it out, stop even auto-attacking and then go back to normal rotation 2-3 seconds after stopping.

[Warhunt]

I'm sorry, my English is not so good. You're saying that switching presence is worse dps than not attacking at all?

Yes he was. I thought it was an odd comment too.

You would switch to Frost naturally, as it just gives a DPS boost and won't change the timings around too much. You can suffer slower rune cooldowns for 10 seconds to pump out... say what.... 300k?

You also don't want to be RS'ing if you are trying to drop threat would you? Spend it on DC if you have to.

[Braindwen]

I'm sorry, my English is not so good. You're saying that switching presence is worse dps than not attacking at all?

Assuming the DK is doing a good job of spending his runes...
Yes, it might be. He can wait a bit without losing runes, and not switching out of blood saves him all the RP he currently has. Wait 3-4 seconds or so, the warrior should be solid on threat by then if he knows what he's doing.

DKs are in the awkward position that switching presences is just flat out a bad idea unless you're completely and utterly threat capped. Can't stack BS between taunts out of blood, slower runes, no rune strike... you don't even do more dps swiching presence. You're at the mercy of having a good other tank .

[Agallochh]

No need to bench the warrior.

I'm a warrior tank 8/8 normal DS and I tank with a feral. He can still pull off me but here are my secrets (and really, every warrior should know these.)
1. Vigilance on the other tank. This way I get SOME vengeance when I'm not attacking.
2. Intervene OT (lowers his threat by 10% and you absorb some of his next attack taken)
3. Immediately after (or right before) taunting, pop Inner Rage. Now you can spam Heroic Strikes for rage.
4. Shield Block + Shield Slam while spamming Heroic Strike. (Rage shouldn't be an issue if you're taking attacks)
5. Last Stand + Recklessness. If you pop these two right as you pull, you will take increased damage thanks to Recklessness, but with Last Stand up healing shouldn't be an issue, and it will stack your vengeance up beastly quick.

Replacing the warrior isn't necessary. Every tank is perfectly viable.

[Nobleshield]

Most Warriors neglect aggrostats for (unneed) Stamina or Mitigation. Let him socket/reforge "properly" (so he can function) or get rid of him.

What? "Aggrostats" are worthless for Warrior tanks, while we WANT Mitigation. Are you really suggesting the "proper" way for a Warrior tank to gem/reforge is to go for hit/expertise??

I admit we do generate the least threat of the tanks as well as being the lowest tank DPS to boot; we don't seem to be in a good place at the moment but we are still perfectly viable. I usually have this same problem tanking alongside a bear - he can pull threat of something even after I hit it with a Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate and sometimes Conc Blow like it was nothing, and his DPS puts me to shame, often being 6k or so more.

[Olianda]

Druids seem to have this issue too. Non-shield tanks do a lot more damage than shield ones I guess.

[Deleted]

What? "Aggrostats" are worthless for Warrior tanks, while we WANT Mitigation. Are you really suggesting the "proper" way for a Warrior tank to gem/reforge is to go for hit/expertise??

I admit we do generate the least threat of the tanks as well as being the lowest tank DPS to boot; we don't seem to be in a good place at the moment but we are still perfectly viable. I usually have this same problem tanking alongside a bear - he can pull threat of something even after I hit it with a Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate and sometimes Conc Blow like it was nothing, and his DPS puts me to shame, often being 6k or so more.

Keep in mind that DS is based on a crap ton of magical damage, thus making defensive stats like Block and Parry worth less. So if the Warrior in question doesn't have survival issues, getting some Expertise may indeed be a good thing.

[Deleted]

As I stated earlier, no one is being replaced, we are only trying to work out how to best tackle the problem with our current setup. All answers are greatly appreciated and our tanks are reading this too. I have it much easier myself playing a lock

[Deleted]

Druids seem to have this issue too. Non-shield tanks do a lot more damage than shield ones I guess.

No, Bears don't have this issue if played correct. Bears do a shit ton of damage and their aggro is really high. Pop Enrage and Berserk and nobody can pull off of you.

[Deleted]

Have him Intervene the other tank right after a tank swap. Heck that shouldn't even be needed when Vigilance is capped anyway and his Shield Block is up for massive threat. He could even set up a Colossus Smash prior to the pull - or avoid using any abilities at all for the last few GCDs before the swap and unleash a 100 rage bar in the whatever boss' face.

Or the DK could leave BS for a few GCDs.

[Agallochh]

Keep in mind that DS is based on a crap ton of magical damage, thus making defensive stats like Block and Parry worth less. So if the Warrior in question doesn't have survival issues, getting some Expertise may indeed be a good thing.

Really, the only thing tanks should be going for with the amount of magical damage in DS is stamina. In my case, I am at CTC cap with certain trinkets, and when I need more HP for bosses like Ultraxion and Madness, I'll swap my trinkets for stam trinkets and have plenty of health. Forging out of mastery/dodge/block and into hit/expertise is always a terrible idea for Warriors and just totally not necessary. Even with more hit/expertise our DPS isn't going to go up by much.

[Aquamonkey]

2. Intervene OT (lowers his threat by 10% and you absorb some of his next attack taken)
3. Immediately after (or right before) taunting, pop Inner Rage. Now you can spam Heroic Strikes for rage.

Why would you want to lower the other tank's threat before taunting?

[Deleted]

Really, the only thing tanks should be going for with the amount of magical damage in DS is stamina. In my case, I am at CTC cap with certain trinkets, and when I need more HP for bosses like Ultraxion and Madness, I'll swap my trinkets for stam trinkets and have plenty of health. Forging out of mastery/dodge/block and into hit/expertise is always a terrible idea for Warriors and just totally not necessary. Even with more hit/expertise our DPS isn't going to go up by much.

I never said it was the optimal way of doing it though. I'm merely pointing out that when doing normal modes as the OP is and having threat issues, Expertise can be a useful stat and you honestly don't need that much HP to clear normal modes. So if Expertise fixes their issue without causing another, where's the harm in that?

And really, when you're trying to beat enrage timers and need all the dps you can possibly squeeze out, Expertise is indeed a good stat for tanks.

[Atrea]

Any tank that was just being hit by a boss will generate more threat than a tank that wasn't being hit at all - vigilance or no (in the case of the 2nd tank being a Warrior.)

Any tank worth their salt will give a moment or two to transition. If they can STILL pull aggro after that, then the other tank is doing something wrong.

[Braindwen]

No, Bears don't have this issue if played correct. Bears do a shit ton of damage and their aggro is really high. Pop Enrage and Berserk and nobody can pull off of you.

Kitty bleeds b4 the taunt. Extra DPS and TONS of extra threat. Wouldn't recommend berserk in that situation unless there's no important place to do it, though in a tank swap fight you'll usually want to hold berserk for kitty.
But anyway, he meant bears *cause* this problem too, meaning we tend to pull off people who taunt off us... which is a load of crap unless we've literally JUST hit mangle as they taunt. Cat form->cower is rarely unsafe, and from that point on you aren't doing 500% threat so if you outthreat any tank you can rightfully criticize them.

Lastly, I love that we single-tank madness and do Morchok on heroic. Add in that I'm unusually lucky on Warmaster devastate dodges (so threat is very high by the time any swap happens) and tank swaps are never an issue for us .

[Deleted]

Kitty bleeds b4 the taunt. Extra DPS and TONS of extra threat. Wouldn't recommend berserk in that situation unless there's no important place to do it, though in a tank swap fight you'll usually want to hold berserk for kitty.
But anyway, he meant bears *cause* this problem too, meaning we tend to pull off people who taunt off us... which is a load of crap unless we've literally JUST hit mangle as they taunt. Cat form->cower is rarely unsafe, and from that point on you aren't doing 500% threat so if you outthreat any tank you can rightfully criticize them.

Lastly, I love that we single-tank madness and do Morchok on heroic. Add in that I'm unusually lucky on Warmaster devastate dodges (so threat is very high by the time any swap happens) and tank swaps are never an issue for us .

Ah okay, I must have misunderstood (getting a bit late here). Well it that case, no, Berserk isn't even needed. On that note, I tank with a DK now and I rarely have to do anything to lower my threat at all. I guess it depends on skill level and gear as well.

[Braindwen]

It's only ever a problem in LFR madness if I go first. If the other tank taunts right as I hit mangle, I shoot way up in threat and LFR pugs are never able to overcome that . Have to stand around looking pretty for 5-10 seconds waiting for them to taunt again.
Never, ever an issue if you can safely go cat after, though some bears I've met do like to just keep plugging along in bear form with berserk up when I'm trying to taunt... THAT is annoying. Bears I pug with fail so much.