Pirating

[Kevyne-Shandris]

You want it to stop? Put your fucking money where your mouth is, and don't steal their fucking products. I don't like advertising in games I pay for, either, and I don't like a lot of the ridiculous DRM shit some games and a LOT of music have. Know what I do? I don't buy their products, and if especially bothers me, I send them a letter. Not an email, an actual, physical, hand-written snailmail letter.

In games you just get a mod to remove it.

When EA started with ingame billboard advertizing in BF2142, there was an uproar over it. Someone made a mod to replace it with ingame art. It was first mod I got immediately.

When I'm paying for the product and I still see ads, thats a line that needs not be crossed.

[Deleted]

I'm saying that "it's about money" is the shit that every fucking shitbag corporation like the MPAA and RIAA trot out every time the subject comes up. Piracy is absolutely not about the damn money, it's about a lack of acceptable service. But as long as people keep stealing shit (and don't mistake it for anything else - piracy is theft), they can keep using that bullshit as an excuse to avoid having to change the way they do business.

Given their actions over the 20th century, I don't expect they'll ever be happy until they have perpetual control over everything and all media consumption comes back to finance them.

What kind of advertising are you talking about? Like, ads before Youtube videos play, or ads every 10 or 15 minutes during a Hulu video? That shit's free, dude - it's no different from commercials while watching TV. What are you expecting, exactly?

I'm pretty sure I made it clear that I was referring to movie trailers on legitimately bought DVDs. I don't complain at all about YT adverts or TV commercials.

You can write to A&E and tell them that you can't get your Walking Dead fix where you're at and that you'd like a legit means of getting it. If it's available in your area but you're dissatisfied with the service... well, tough shit man. You either suck it up or you put your money where your mouth is and show them you won't condone their stupid bullshit and don't buy their products.

It is not avaliable in my area. It will be, in about a years time on DVD unless I buy Sky (which I've no interest in doing for several reasons).

At any rate, it's not my problem. It is trivial to see what the problem is for the MPAA and RIAA (though they still turn over massive profits) and yet they lie, deceive and attempt to control everything. I don't give a damn about their future and I don't see why anyone should. It is up to them to improve their service methods and stop trying to control everything.

[PizzaSHARK]

Given their actions over the 20th century, I don't expect they'll ever be happy until they have perpetual control over everything and all media consumption comes back to finance them.

And so your solution is to do the internet equivalent of jump on a car and fling a firebomb through a store window? I'm not sure how this is going to convince them that they're the ones that are in the wrong here.

I'm pretty sure I made it clear that I was referring to movie trailers on legitimately bought DVDs. I don't complain at all about YT adverts or TV commercials.

You can skip those movie trailers, and they're usually placed so that the movies being advertised coincide with the actual movie being purchased - if you like this movie, maybe you'll like these movies that we've also made! I don't really see that as being objectionable.

At any rate, it's not my problem. It is trivial to see what the problem is for the MPAA and RIAA (though they still turn over massive profits) and yet they lie, deceive and attempt to control everything. I don't give a damn about their future and I don't see why anyone should. It is up to them to improve their service methods and stop trying to control everything.

So you're basically saying it's not your responsibility, even though your actions are perpetuating the problem? Isn't that kind of immature?

[Frozencpu]

So pirating is ok but distributing is where the big fish at. In terms of copyright seems to me its like AIDS there is no cure.

[Deleted]

And so your solution is to do the internet equivalent of jump on a car and fling a firebomb through a store window? I'm not sure how this is going to convince them that they're the ones that are in the wrong here.

It isn't. I don't care to convince them. Their failures are not my problem.

You can skip those movie trailers, and they're usually placed so that the movies being advertised coincide with the actual movie being purchased - if you like this movie, maybe you'll like these movies that we've also made! I don't really see that as being objectionable.

Sigh. Did you see the picture relevant to this? When you pirate you don't have to watch all that crap (some of these trailers are not skippable). You just download and play. Piracy in that sense wins.

So you're basically saying it's not your responsibility, even though your actions are perpetuating the problem? Isn't that kind of immature?

No, I'm saying it isn't my problem and I put more things the world ahead over MPAA grievances.

[Deleted]

I am a scenewhore.

Infracted

[Kevyne-Shandris]

So pirating is ok but distributing is where the big fish at. In terms of copyright seems to me its like AIDS there is no cure.

There is a cure, but greed is more important to the content providers.

Take Blizzard for example. RIFT has free server transfers. Blizzard would rather folks pay $25 each way.

It's that type of anti-consumer action that allows the justification to pirate content to continue...one company at a time.

[PizzaSHARK]

It isn't. I don't care to convince them. Their failures are not my problem.

Actually, they are. If you steal their shit, they're just going to point that piracy is a problem of cost and not of service and they will never change. I've made that point several times over.

Sigh. Did you see the picture relevant to this? When you pirate you don't have to watch all that crap (some of these trailers are not skippable). You just download and play. Piracy in that sense wins.

No, I didn't. I followed to the linked post and it didn't specify where the ads were or in what kind of content they were in. Media Player Classic allows me to skip basically anything on the disc, even those FBI and Interpol warning screens. I can't skip them on the DVD player linked to my TV, though.

And piracy is an issue about service. It has almost nothing to do with price. There are a handful of people who pirate because they can't afford to buy. There are other people who pirate because they're shitbags. And then there's everyone else, who pirates because they refuse to put up with the stupid DRM bullshit idiots like the RIAA and MPAA put on their shit.

The problem is, these people are all a significant portion of the problem.

No, I'm saying it isn't my problem and I put more things the world ahead over MPAA grievances.

The MPAA can die in a fire for all I care, but if your grievance is that the service being provided in inadequate or unsatisfactory, you are never going to convince them to change their ways if you're stealing their products.

[Yemiena]

The best argument/explanation I've heard in favor of pirating goes like this:

Buy the things you'd normally buy, download the things that you wouldn't normally buy. That way nobody is losing any money since you wouldn't have bought it anyway had it not been available free.

Obviously this creates a grey area, but can keep the conscience somewhat satisfied.

Gonna agree strongly with this.

[PizzaSHARK]

There is a cure, but greed is more important to the content providers.

Take Blizzard for example. RIFT has free server transfers. Blizzard would rather folks pay $25 each way.

It's that type of anti-consumer action that allows the justification to pirate content to continue...one company at a time.

It's a two-way street. Consumers tell the RIAA and MPAA (I like to use them as examples because everyone knows who they are, and everyone knows they're total shitbags) that their service sucks and that they aren't gonna buy their products.

The RIAA and MPAA then point to people pirating (read: stealing) their products - clearly their products are just fine, because people are stealing them. That means the problem is that people are just being assholes and aren't wanting to pay for the products.

Both sides of the street are getting hit by the cars traveling down the street, though - the thieves are missing that their theft is causing the producers to blame them, and the producers are focusing on the stolen products rather than the fact that these products are being stolen because the services providing them fucking suck.

---------- Post added 2012-02-29 at 01:04 AM ----------

Gonna agree strongly with this.

I agree. There's really no reason not to provide free demos for games these days other than laziness/taking consumers for granted. For movies, trailers should be representative of the actual movie and not a highlight reel (how many movies have you seen whose trailers made it look AWESOME but the actual flick sucked?), and there's really no reason a music label can't put the songs out for free on Youtube; Youtube's quality is terrible compared to the lossless file format you can get from a disc or proper music download.

[Deleted]

Then you are part of the problem and are perpetuating the stereotype that piracy is about money and not about businesses providing a fucking terrible service.

You want it to stop? Put your fucking money where your mouth is, and don't steal their fucking products. I don't like advertising in games I pay for, either, and I don't like a lot of the ridiculous DRM shit some games and a LOT of music have. Know what I do? I don't buy their products, and if especially bothers me, I send them a letter. Not an email, an actual, physical, hand-written snailmail letter.

I'm just one person. One person can be ignored. 10,000 people will begin to be noticed. 50,000 people will make them take note. 100,000 will constitute a problem somewhere. 1,000,000 is going to cause enough of a shortfall on those fat, ignorant board members' paychecks that maybe they'll start to think that all those letters they've been getting telling them they're fucking idiots might actually mean something.

That's the idea, anyway.

But seriously. Stop pirating. If you don't support their practices, don't buy their products. But stop fucking pirating them.

This doesn't make any sense. Pirates solve the problem already, for free. If the producers lace it with crap and inconveniences why not pirate it? This way they don't get the money and you still get to enjoy the product. Being inconvenient doesn't mean it wouldn't be enjoyable at all, especially when the pirates remove the inconveniences.

And if you are the type who likes to improve things, buy the good products that do most things right. This way everyone wins, bad guys don't get money, good guys get paid and you will get to enjoy everything.

[Idoru]

Why do you feel you 'deserve' to enjoy what that person/people did without paying the fee they say you should? I'm just curious how you came to that feeling on entitlement?

That's not the point.

The statement was "They lose money because you pirate their products", and my counter was "They don't because they wouldn't have gotten my money anyway".

My feeling of entitlement has nothing to do with that.

[Deleted]

I personally don't download because i can afford the games i want and i want the full support for the games. (updates etc)

[PizzaSHARK]

This doesn't make any sense. Pirates solve the problem already, for free.

No, they don't. It's like taking a pain killer for pain without actually addressing what's causing the pain. You don't feel it anymore, but it's still there. You're saying that STEALING someone else's products is the best way of solving the problem. ... What? How is being a thief solving any problems other than "damn I don't like all these ads"?

If the producers lace it with crap and inconveniences why not pirate it? This way they don't get the money and you still get to enjoy the product. Being inconvenient doesn't mean it wouldn't be enjoyable at all, especially when the pirates remove the inconveniences.

Because then they aren't making money off of their product? I know it's hard to feel sympathy when the artist raking in millions of dollars a year doesn't his or her chunk of that lost sale, but it's the principle that you are stealing someone else's product and acting like you're somehow doing it for the greater good.

If you pirate, you are a thief. Period. It's one thing to just not give a shit, but to say you are solving the problem by stealing? That makes no sense and is dishonest as hell.

Again, if you disagree with their service methods, boycott their products. Write them telling them you are not happy with their services and will not be buying their products until they improve their services. By stealing their products, you are allowing them to write off your position as being illegitimate (why should I listen to those thieves!?) and also allowing them to loudly insist that people are pirating because they're selfish assholes, not because their services suck.

And if you are the type who likes to improve things, buy the good products that do most things right. This way everyone wins, bad guys don't get money, good guys get paid and you will get to enjoy everything.

Actually pretty much everyone loses when you steal. The original content creator doesn't get their money (maybe it doesn't matter if you're a millionaire but what if you're an up-and-coming artist whose livelihood depends on that first album selling as many copies as it can?), you're perpetuating the stereotype that pirates are selfish assholes, and you're more or less directly encouraging content owners to put these moronic DRM methods on the shit you want because they think it's actually going to help them stop people from stealing it.

[Ogretron]

I would disagree that Naruto is truly being hurt. I actually talked to some of the producers of Naruto at a recent anime convention (Ohayocon), as well as many others, specifically about the impact of piracy on their sales. For the most part, Naruto is barely touched by piracy, because according to their representative, the franchise is now simply too massive to have much of its impact come from DVDs. They have a massive amount of profit from fanfare now, more than anything else.

That's what I was getting at, and I admit it could have been worded better. If there is any money loss in the industry, it isn't because of piracy. It's because of how consumers get their media (music, tv shows, etc). High speed internet gives you the convenience to watch whatever you want at any given time. Some companies know that the internet isn't just some "gimmick" and that the war on piracy is just as stupid as the war on drugs.

I haven't actually seen it, it was just an example the other poster used but I have heard it was pretty good.

[PizzaSHARK]

That's not the point.

The statement was "They lose money because you pirate their products", and my counter was "They don't because they wouldn't have gotten my money anyway".

My feeling of entitlement has nothing to do with that.

Why would you pay for a product that you enjoy if you already got it for free? I'm a reformed pirate. I stole dozens of music albums, probably hundreds of movies, and even a couple of games, and I trotted out that "well they wouldn't have gotten my money anyway!" party line every time, too.

Despite liking most of the stuff I stole, I never once went out and purchased a legit copy of them. Why would I? I already got what I wanted. Maybe I'd consider buying the next thing those guys produce legitly, but they still lost the money from the sale in the first case.

The solution is that game developers need to fucking produce free, decent demos of their games so players can actually try before they buy, but you're being dishonest if you think you'd go out and buy a legit copy of a game you already "own."

[Xarkan]

What do you guys think about people pirating apps,music,movies and TV Shows, other things?

Do you not care? Do you do it?

I think the fundamental disconnect is that people believe they have a right to all entertainment and programs they want. How they come to that conclusion i do not know.

You can live a full life without the latest rammstein or lady gaga, this is surprisingly enough true. If you do not wish to pay for it your life would be hindered in no way by not owning it (and if you cant afford rammstein your life may be improved by not having some germans yell Mein Land on your speakers)

All defences for pirating rely on ownership of the software being a right rather than a priviledge, on the music being fundamentally your right as a human.

Since the defence is flawed the argument fails. There is no defence for pirating.


[edit:] Yes some talk about digital rights management inconveniences and similar stuff, they fail to realize that pirates brought that stuff on them

[Kevyne-Shandris]

It's a two-way street. Consumers tell the RIAA and MPAA (I like to use them as examples because everyone knows who they are, and everyone knows they're total shitbags) that their service sucks and that they aren't gonna buy their products.

The RIAA and MPAA then point to people pirating (read: stealing) their products - clearly their products are just fine, because people are stealing them. That means the problem is that people are just being assholes and aren't wanting to pay for the products.

Both sides of the street are getting hit by the cars traveling down the street, though - the thieves are missing that their theft is causing the producers to blame them, and the producers are focusing on the stolen products rather than the fact that these products are being stolen because the services providing them fucking suck.

With RIAA it has been their failure to distribute content in a timely fashion. They wanted to protect the CD industry. Problem is technology doesn't wait on the status quo. People were/are downloading the music left and right because paying $15+ a CD for one song they do like is consumer BAD relations. Then they pulled a SoE, and started to actually fight the end-user. That is a PR nightmare of nightmares.

Now that folks can download music from online and at a nominal fee, most of the pirating has ceased for those who refused to pay for a CD for one song -- or had to pay crazy shipping as locally they couldn't get the music. $1 for a song is at a price point even kids can afford, so there's not much argument that the cost is too much (a major factor with CDs if you just want one song). That's money the music industry lost just on the lack of access of what the customer wanted, has finally been addressed.

MPAA is facing the same problem of cost and access.

There will always be pirates even if the industries bend over for their customers, but if the companies are good with their customers to deliver their products as technology evolves, there's less pressure to pirate. It comes down to money on the customer's side, too. Someway both sides need to meet halfway, or piracy will be the check in the system.

[Deleted]

It happens that I pirate software material, not as much as I used to though since I have a work now and feel that I can pay for myself, so companies that makes stuff I like can continue to do so. However, I often pirate both games and movies before I buy it to see if it's any good, I do not want to support something I do not enjoy.

[Deleted]

No, they don't. It's like taking a pain killer for pain without actually addressing what's causing the pain. You don't feel it anymore, but it's still there. You're saying that STEALING someone else's products is the best way of solving the problem. ... What? How is being a thief solving any problems other than "damn I don't like all these ads"?

But it isn't being a thief. The thief is the one who uploaded the pirate copy, not you. Besides the only difference between boycotting the product and pirating it if you don't like for some reason is that you don't get to enjoy it. Otherwise it sends the same message, they aren't getting your money.

Because then they aren't making money off of their product? I know it's hard to feel sympathy when the artist raking in millions of dollars a year doesn't his or her chunk of that lost sale, but it's the principle that you are stealing someone else's product and acting like you're somehow doing it for the greater good.

If you pirate, you are a thief. Period. It's one thing to just not give a shit, but to say you are solving the problem by stealing? That makes no sense and is dishonest as hell.

Again, if you disagree with their service methods, boycott their products. Write them telling them you are not happy with their services and will not be buying their products until they improve their services. By stealing their products, you are allowing them to write off your position as being illegitimate (why should I listen to those thieves!?) and also allowing them to loudly insist that people are pirating because they're selfish assholes, not because their services suck.

Why? It is your morals and principles you're talking about here. I don't share them. I'm not into self flagellation when it comes to protests and I'm voting with my wallet just the same. If I don't buy it, whether I actually get the product or not doesn't make any difference to anyone except me. And again, if you download, you're not a thief, you're accepting stolen goods from the actual thief. There's a huge difference. If I went to the companies site and used hacks to get the stuff, then I would be a thief.. sort of.

Actually pretty much everyone loses when you steal. The original content creator doesn't get their money (maybe it doesn't matter if you're a millionaire but what if you're an up-and-coming artist whose livelihood depends on that first album selling as many copies as it can?), you're perpetuating the stereotype that pirates are selfish assholes, and you're more or less directly encouraging content owners to put these moronic DRM methods on the shit you want because they think it's actually going to help them stop people from stealing it.

But that is the point, isn't it? If they put unacceptable inconveniences to the original or price it too high, I'd be protesting against it by not buying it. Voting with my wallet and all that. They made a disagreeable product hence I'm not giving them money for it. Make it better next time and I might. Downloading a pirated copy has absolutely no impact here and doesn't make a difference to anyone but me.