Shadow priest destroyed in MOP ?

[Brusalk]

Brusalk, I am sorry but I really can't see how MoP is going to be better pve wise. Multi doting will essentially be One SWP on every target, because VT dmg is garbage( you'll maybe need to put two VT for mana, if its an issue).
Haste reducing MB's cd is ok by itself, and I'm really not a fan of this concept, as we saw rets completely fail with it, but the fact that you have a talent that resets the cd of MB makes this cd reduction completely stupid.

Also our mastery needs a real rework, I hate it with such a passion, It is worse than garbage(and I am not talking about the dmg output but the concept in itself).
And there won't be a real choice in your talent, as Optimal build will emerge. Only the encounter will decide the talents you'll have to pick.

Being able to decide on your talents depending on the encounter is all I'm asking for, and is absolutely amazing in itself. There are plenty of additional choices that really do not matter, such as psyfiend vs dominate mind.

We will go OoM so fast that unless the target will die very fast, VT+SWP will have to go on targets to maintain mana, which is no different than today. In fact, for prolonged AoE phases, we will probably have to maintain 2 or 3 VTs on targets in order to not go OoM while using mind sear.


And a very serious question: How does having a talent which resets the CD on MB and makes it instant, in any way negate the effect of haste reducing the CD on MB proper. You're telling me that you always have a MB proc before your next casted mind blast would've occurred? Even if you have a proc for every MB cast except one, it's still better to have that reduction than to not have it at all.



I agree completely that the mastery is complete shit. The procced spells need to have the ability to proc things just like the normal spells do, in order for it to be an adequate mastery. As it is, it's literally just a second crit roll just for our dots. (Though it does give the ability to have a x4 dot tick, effectively)

[roflwaffle]

don't get your point really.

But your a pvp'er so most likely you will come up with pve is not skills and pvp is skills.

<-- pve'er. pvp is skill and timing. pve is not standing in shit and downing it before enrage.

[Lulbalance]

Yeah, I'm going to link my armory and my rankings so ppl an see how awesome and right I am.

he linked it because someone claimed he was lying.

Read the posts before you say dumb stuff.

[Deleted]

I hate to be "That Guy" and start the classic "PvE vs PvP" debate, but...
The Cata orbs were a little clunky in pvp, unless you were being trained. Sometimes my dots feel like they hit for crap anyway after the nerf mid season9. So making the most of ES was a big deal.
I can see why it's fun and a little added management is always great, however it sounds like a case of pvers going "why is this bad shadow priest doing as much damage as me" You're following a "rotation" or "priority" killing a boss thats is meant to die to you. Everyone should be as a good in pve, I don't get out people can't understand how to pve, if they just tunnel vision bars, panic, etc. Pvp (until pve gear gets involved) requires more thought and reaction.

Commence flame war.

[Arlee]

How about we don't start a flame war. Discussing how the mechanics of cata spriest vs mop spriests is different in PvP or PvE is fine, getting into rage sessions about if PvP takes more skill than PvE is not ok.

[Holy]

I can't speak for the damage Shadow does in MOP, because Beta is Beta and it wouldn't be tuned correctly during Beta, but the actual rotation seems much more difficult then it is on live. Taking the talents with procs is something I am really not used to. Hacing both Mind Blast and Mind Spike instants procing all the time is a lot different then the smooth use mind flay, refresh dots and mind blast with at least 1 orb I am used to. In fact, I pretty much had no time to even use mind flay because ot the random procs!

So I think it's too early to say that Shadow Priest are destroyed or require less skill.

[Deleted]

Being able to decide on your talents depending on the encounter is all I'm asking for, and is absolutely amazing in itself. There are plenty of additional choices that really do not matter, such as psyfiend vs dominate mind.

We will go OoM so fast that unless the target will die very fast, VT+SWP will have to go on targets to maintain mana, which is no different than today. In fact, for prolonged AoE phases, we will probably have to maintain 2 or 3 VTs on targets in order to not go OoM while using mind sear.


And a very serious question: How does having a talent which resets the CD on MB and makes it instant, in any way negate the effect of haste reducing the CD on MB proper. You're telling me that you always have a MB proc before your next casted mind blast would've occurred? Even if you have a proc for every MB cast except one, it's still better to have that reduction than to not have it at all.



I agree completely that the mastery is complete shit. The procced spells need to have the ability to proc things just like the normal spells do, in order for it to be an adequate mastery. As it is, it's literally just a second crit roll just for our dots. (Though it does give the ability to have a x4 dot tick, effectively)

Each time there will be a MB proc, the value of haste will go down. Simple as that.

[Yvaelle]

Been playing beta since week 1 iv been gladiator and i'v been 2450 rated 3v3 in cataclysm i'm high ranked on various of fights in Dragon soul/ Firelands.

The OP talking down to Theed had me laughing so hard I almost fell on the floor - my first ROFL almost occurred here <tear of laughter>

As for our PvE dps, I don't like that our dots are weaker, but from a game design PoV - I knew it was coming (way back in 2.0 when I went from Fury to Shadow, a big part of the reason was that dot damage didn't seriously diminish per number of targets) - it took so long that I forgot that it was coming, and I'm going to seriously miss dots being dot-like.

I think that's a huge over-sight on blizzards part because we still have the penalty of damage-Over-Time where all other damage-Up-Front classes (all melee, most casters) don't risk dispels or immunity effects negating their prior abilities. Still, I expect our damage will get scaled to within 5-10% of every other classes when raid tiers begin. Don't be too worried about our spec going obsolete, no other spec has the rapid loyalty that shadow commands - they know this - I doubt they want it to get to letter-spam at their houses like it did in early WotLK beta before they started listening to us. Our damage *will* be comparable, so only how the mechanics feels matter - and some of the mechanics feel pretty good.

I love:
- Orbs = DP change over Apparitions
- Vampiric Embrace + Tranquility is an improvement over Divine Hymn
- more instant casts if we need them means higher pve mobility with less dps loss
- Ravens

What I'm still concerned about:
- In PvP, dispel protection is still my greatest fear, I'm glad Theed is excited, but I can't help but feel like Shadowplay will go obsolete when you need to pour 10+ gcd's to set someone up, and it costs 1 gcd to remove all your work
- in PvE, losing real dot cleave is going to make us feel more like elemental shamans or fire mages or destruction locks - a lot of mastering shadow pve was about anticipating the fight and positioning to maximize damage on multiple targets, I feel like that's going to be gone if our dots are at the bottom of our priorities, but again - don't worry about our damage

[0oglitcho0]

The title is very misleading. I thought a priest was destroying Mists of Pandaria.

[Daez]

I do not agree at all. There is nothing challenging and rewarding about waiting for a perfect set up of procs and on use abilities. Besides, there was still a set priority rotation, and since there were decent sized cool downs, people still simply either used their cool downs when they were in burn phases or as told to by certain websites. There is not a lot of fun in playing the game if you have to theory craft every second of it. Especially since the vast majority of players never theory craft their own stuff and simply follow what the leading websites tell them to do.

World of WARcraft does NOT equal World of THEORYcraft (WoW =/= WoT)

[VoljinforWarchief]

So what have MOP done to shadow priest well lets have a look at it.

Shadow Orb - Empowered shadow management:
removed no longer have to keep track of this buff making sure that our dots is put up when this buff is active is no longer needed.

New Mastery:
Gives you periodic Shadow damage spells ( % ) chance to deal damage twice, each time they deal damage.

My opinion on this:
Makes the class less fun and challenging to play being able to handle this buff correct was rewarding making shadow priest more unique. The new mastery simplify shadow priest removing a huge skill factor thereby making the spec way less rewarding.

Dark Evangelism / Dark Archangel management:
So Dark Archangel(2 min CD up from 1.5 min) is now optional and does not generate Dark Evangelism.

My opinion on this:
Yet another skill factor removed no management required and most likely not a talent that will be picked only for occasional fights.

This two changes out of many that in my opinion destroys a lot of skill and challenge with the class.

PS: sorry for my grammar and spelling.

Post on official forum.
eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4551308916#1

Sounds like they made shadow easier to play from what you are saying? Good. Maybe that will lead to less shitty priests who can't pull enough DPS.

[Deleted]

Beta shadowpriest play has WAY too much healing stuff going on. We have like 4 healing cds to use and they nerfed both our dps one's fiend and archangel, altho I do like shadow on beta I do tho like/want to see us being dmg dealers not lamers who cant decide if we are dps or healers. Way too much effort put in for pvp usage in the current setup, our 3 90 talents are all healing crap

[Brusalk]

Except they're not. All three have shadow versions you get when you go into shadowform and deal shadow damage. The spell animations change to shadowy type and have very nice damage and utility. They just have the added benefit that they heal. (Just like healy-priests have the added benefit of damage)

Our 1 healing CD is Vampiric Embrace, which we cast and then keep on doing dps. Tranq is only if you have a druid give it to you. DP self-heals, but I believe it's less than our current VE healing on live. Void Shift is a healy-move, yes. However having additional utility when we don't lose any damage is a good thing. Great thing even.

Also, they nerfed the fiends, that's correct. However archangel is now both longer (24 instead of 18) and no longer requires evangelism. Less ramp up for us is a great thing.

[marathal]

/sigh

They could change us to be the absolute toughest class to play with the worst damage and we will still play our shadow priests because they are Shadow Priests. If at the beginning of the Xpac we are bottom of the damage meters I am confident that we will find a way to either figure out what we need to do or we will make well thought out and detailed postings to get things corrected.

We are getting a huge boost in available tools for PvP and PvE. We are being given a set method to generate orbs eliminating a lot of RNG. While all of the changes seem drastic and out of our normal spell set, we needed change. Doing away with DP was a huge shock. But we presented it with well thought out statements, not a bunch of Blizz hates us, I'm gonna quit and play SWToR unless they give it back. We now have a huge arsenal of spells we will be able to cast on the move. How many times has anyone been 50% of complete on a MB cast only to have to cut it because an AoE dropped under us. Getting it as a instant cast proc with 12 seconds to cast it is great.

Do I understand all of the new spells? and what the priorities and stat weights are? Absolutely not. Why, because we are still in the beta. Things have changed a half dozen times in a half dozen patches. I am sure things will get tweaked more before we get to the PTR, and then they will fine tune them some more.


There are thousands of Shadow Priests world wide. Some are the Elite, some are brand new to the game. All we can do is make constructive comments and evaluate any changes, methodically and coherently. Basically saying Rant, rant, rant, shadow is broke in the beta, etc. is not the way to do it. Put up numbers, post logs, keep in mind you are probably not even in the first full tier set. Who knew at the start of Cata we would have the 4pc T13 bonuses and would be able to pull huge numbers.

At the start of cata dungeon heroics we all complained of being OOM to fast, OMG, we need to CC, they tuned the dungeons to much. Yeah right. Now we face roll through content like its nothing.

I am looking forward to the changes. They are new, they will take some time to master, and I will figure it out. I am sure the rest of us will too.

[Deleted]

I don't agree, compared to now, we will do a lot less damage on the move except when procs, but you know.. procs... Today we can spam DP while moving which is a very good filler, and minimal dps loss. We will only be able to spam SWP at MOP, and the direct damage part is not affected by haste, so scaling will be lower than what we have with DP.

And we were viable for the biggest part of cataclysm(exept beg of t11, til MB boost), but mostly due to the fact that there were a lot of multi doting/aoe fights in which we rule, just like affliction warlock and boomkin.

By changing the core mechanic that we had this expansion, it makes me wonder if blizzard was just desatisfied with our results.

And you say its only beta? PTR has been announced as "nearly there". So its basically the end of beta and as of now nobody is happy with this good for nothing mastery. Its tuning will be near impossible as its a proc, it will either be too powerfull or just too weak. And at the moment having a secondary stat that has the same gap as intel/haste currently has on live is so stupid...

Mastery needs to be changed. And no, relying this much on MB is not a good thing, especially pvpwise. No MB = No DP. There is a need for passive orb generation like there is live, maybe put an internal cd on it, or do what you did for prot paladin to generate 3 holy power with their 2min cd.

Blizzard is really annoying, they got rid of a lot of rng(mages can crit at 100% with inferno blast= easy proc pyro when FB crits, for example, mastery non crit depend anymore etc...), yet they build too many of our talents on rng. I thought they did not want more rng... well you did some rng reduction: orb generation, its no longer an issue, but in that regard you only had to make ES permanent instead of totally messing up our mastery. Today our mastery is great as all of our spell except SWD benefits from it, starting MoP only our dots will be affected by mastery(and the rng factor is so much reduced with 4p t13), and yet MB will probably be 2nd to third on our recounts at MoP, so that's a big spell that doesn't benefit from our mastery.

And one last thing, put shadowfiend/mindbender on a 2min cd for SP, currently the cd is about 1min to 2min max depending on the encounter, putting it on a 3min cd feels like a huge rip off.

[marathal]

I am no fan of orbs. Ever since the first time I ran Naxx and on the final fight I died because the debuff on me looked like part of the orb effect. Now I always remember to check to make sure DBM is enabled for the encounter. Lol.

Anyway. At this point of the Cata beta mind spike was gonna be this big spell for us, shadow apparitions were gonna be huge for movement intensive fights, if I remember correctly Mastery was gonna be our best stat.

Things change. Until we are running the raids in 440+ gear? Might be higher, think that is what the heroic dungeon finder is at the moment. But until we are in there doing the heroic dungeons and raids, and looking at the mechanics required for the fights, who knows what our priorities will be. I certainly remember the shock of being asked to MindControl every mob we hit in a dungeon. And my DPS sucked as a result. But it was what we had to do at the beginning.

[Chockolate]

Well I agree with Theed. Shadow feels good. The talents and orbs makes it just as challenging and fun as cata, if not more.

Oh and in case you ask my priest has cleared heroic madness 11 times and I have 407 gear, so I have some idea what i'm talking about.

P.S. Try not to be so dramatic.

[Noradin]

The title is very misleading. I thought a priest was destroying Mists of Pandaria.

Thought so too at first glance.
A few days ago I was in an instance together with a hunter who had a pet which gave a +2200% stam buff and a priest with buggy lifereg for the whole group. Everyone had 4.5 million life (tank had more than 7 million and he was a monk, he could oneshot anything) and got something like 100k life per second. It was insane.
That was what came to my mind first when I saw that title xD

[Violent]

Long live the shadow realm.

[Deleted]

I don't really care what blizzard does to the class, it will always be fun to try beat other classes. Skill>everything