“build diversity,” with buffs to many rarely used, underpowered class abilities."

[Lilly32]

So since thats dropping with 1.0.4 and the servers are down for another hour and half lets discuss. What builds will this allow for because I cant really think of that many and I have gotten all classes to 60 and into Inferno except DH? I mean we already have tanking Wizards and Demon Hunters which Im sure wasnt intended when the game went live, and seriously if they nerf those Im done. Im guessing maybe 2 handed builds for Barbs and Monks will be made viable but cant really think of anything else. Maybe this patch they make WDs a playable class and buff pets as well?

[Cairhiin]

WDs will get a huge buff at least. That's for sure. For monks really, pretty much all builds use the same abilities. I think you need to think more in terms of making new abilities viable than whole builds. That is probably what Blizzard is doing. Fixing unused skills and as a result you will see more diverse builds instead of the same Mantra of Evasion, Deadly Reach/Fists of Thunder, Breath of Heaven, Serenity, Blinding Flash, Sweeping Winds.

[Lilly32]

Fixing unused skills and as a result you will see more diverse builds instead of the same Mantra of Evasion, Deadly Reach/Fists of Thunder, Breath of Heaven, Serenity, Blinding Flash, Sweeping Winds.

They will have to be ridiculous changes to be able to drop BoH, Serenity, and MoE. I mean how would you play a monk without your get out of jail free card in serenity? Or without the heal and attack buff from BoH. Or without the armor and dodge from MoE? I already had a hard enough time progressing with mine using those skills so I couldnt imagine not using them. I dont even think I could drop one of them. But I guess the changes are going to be good enough to do so.

[Cairhiin]

They will have to be ridiculous changes to be able to drop BoH, Serenity, and MoE. I mean how would you play a monk without your get out of jail free card in serenity? Or without the heal and attack buff from BoH. Or without the armor and dodge from MoE? I already had a hard enough time progressing with mine using those skills so I couldnt imagine not using them. I dont even think I could drop one of them. But I guess the changes are going to be good enough to do so.

I agree with you those three somehow feel the core of any monk build (well obviously you can switch the Mantra for Conviction). However many of the other Monk abilities are just very lackluster like Sanctuary, Exploding Palm, and well several more. Blinding Flash and Sweeping Wind are spots where we should expect more diversity after 1.0.4 or at least I hope so.

The above is also the reason I've been advocating for lowering the difficulty level. Because if things stay as they are all classes are near forced into half an action bar of defensive skills severely limiting build diversion.

[Squishy Tia]

I agree with you those three somehow feel the core of any monk build (well obviously you can switch the Mantra for Conviction). However many of the other Monk abilities are just very lackluster like Sanctuary, Exploding Palm, and well several more. Blinding Flash and Sweeping Wind are spots where we should expect more diversity after 1.0.4 or at least I hope so.

The above is also the reason I've been advocating for lowering the difficulty level. Because if things stay as they are all classes are near forced into half an action bar of defensive skills severely limiting build diversion.

It's less the difficulty level as opposed to the "cheap" level. There's a distinct difference between hard but doable, really hard but doable with a lot of skill, and just outright outlandishly impossible unless the Earth, moon, and planets align.

There are three parts to this brick wall phenomenon:

1) Mobs now spam abilities on what appears to be a 3.0 second timer, with each ability having its own distinct timer, usually firing at a different time than the same mob's other abilities, meaning a three or four mob pack will spam you nonstop with abilities which isn't skill based, it's just cheap. It isn't even a gear check - it's flat out reminiscent of the "good ol' days" of one-hit deaths that harken back to the 8-bit console game era. Or more accurately, it's more like in the NES version of Ninja Gaiden (all three of its games) where enemies were placed not based on ability, but on cheap hits that cause you to become vunlerable to another enemy's attacks with no way to counter, such as a mob sitting exactly on the edge of a platform you have to jump to, and if you don't hit it just right before landing, you get knocked into the air and down through a hole in the ground to a guaranteed death, or another enemy waiting below in a repeating cycle. That's not a skill based situation, that's punishment via cheap tactics. While possible to overcome, there's usually zero enjoyment from doing so other than "god DAMN I'm finally past that fucking BS"....and then half a screen away you get to repeat the procedure, and if you die, you get both areas to redo again (this is how it feels when you've done your best to overcome cheap tactics used against you via affix combo/spams and three seconds after you die, before you can even resurrect the mobs regain full health meaning you get to do it all over again with the full misery to accompany it​).

2) Ridiculous tactics used on enemies and reduced effectiveness (without so much as a by your leave from the devs) of the means to mitigate these tactics. We're talking about the enrage timers on elites (goes hand in hand with problem #1) and bosses, and the affix addition to certain bosses aimed squarely at only specific classes (so much for good balancing here). Then on top of that there's the problem where either armor or resistances aren't providing their full (or any) effect against specific ailments (AoE, ground abilities, elemental damage). When you add this all up, it becomes massively distasteful to say the least. Again, it isn't a skill based checks and balances system, it's punitive for the sake of being punitive (and in the case of the armor/resistances, outright dishonest).

3) Overtuned mobs/massively cheap abilities. Act 2 is rife with these. Mobs that burrow half the time, shield the rest of the time, and then burrow again, only to greet you with enrage timers is a prime example. Act 3 has these in droves too. There are also mobs with invulnerability for a very lengthy time relative to when you can attack them (burrowers of course). Chief among these are two sets of mobs: The Lacuni familly, who get invulnerability while they jump into place, and then procede to either lay smackdown on you at point blank range, or begin mortaring you from afar only to jump away and become invulnerable while they follow you with this tactic repeatedly. The other fun ones are those annoying flying robed demons in Act 4 that come from offscreen and hit you both without warning, and with full impunity until they finally come to a stop. Unless you happen to be using an escape move at just the right time or have a defensive cooldown activated at just the right time, they get cheap hits on you with no recourse for the player. At Inferno level, this can mean instant death, seeing as these mobs typically hit for (unmitigated) 3x the average HP pool of 40k, if not more. One of them doing this is bad enough - more than one and you're almost guaranteed a merciless death.

Some overtuned mob examples are the Fallen Maniac family, who explode on top of you, usually en masse, for far, far more than your HP pool even with full resists and mitigation. Diablo 2 players remember these in the form of the Stygian Doll family or Nihilithak's Corpse Explosion ability on mobs that virtually guaranteed your death since at LV 95 they had a radius of 1.5 screen's worth of explosive area and hit like the Fallen Maniacs/Stygian Dolls do/did. Another major example of said overtuned mobs is the Pain Monger family. These are the ones that wield a single spiked mace and do a moderately long "wind up" move that when it lands on you, is an instant kill regardless of HP. On their own it isn't completely game breaking (but still overtuned). Combined with two very irritating scenarios, which I'm about to list, they're downright unfair to the max. The first scenario is the bug that Blizzard said was fixed, but alas was not (another 1.0.3 "lie"). In this scenario, these mobs do their wind up move, but turn to follow your character while they perform this move. This means if you're in tight quarters, there's no escape - the move will land and kill you. The second scenario is just another cheap "one hit wonder" tactic - these mobs often come with either Waller or the more deadly Jailer affix. If you're Jailed, and these mobs wind up on you, guess what? Right-O. You get a nice pretty view of a glowing cross about 1.5 seconds later and a very hefty repair bill if you're playing on Hell or Inferno. About the only way to survive this is something like the Barbarian's Ignore Pain coupled with another defensive cooldown or the DH's SS. But since those are on cooldowns long enough to matter, you only get reprieve once - and if you get stuck in place again while they're on cooldown, it's <Colonel Jack O'Neill voice>goodnight my something, goodnight</Jack O'Neill>.

So basically the brick wall problem itself (not counting loot itemization issues where items that drop are easily ten levels past any relevance in most acts up into Inferno) boils down to bugs, punitive measures, and one-hit-wonder tactics on mobs that are still majorly overtuned. While there are some ways to overcome this, oftentimes it entails a play style that many are not happy with, thus do not enjoy and refuse to play. When the game becomes a "play this exact way or you're toast" affair, both build diversity and fun factor go out the window. And that's where Inferno now stands. The best gear in the game can't save you from the above (certain abilities can, but only once, maybe twice). And many of the above situations are simply unavoidable outside of finding a place to "park" the mobs, if you're lucky enough to be in an area that affords such a luxury. It's one of the reasons I have to play a Caltrops (Jagged Spikes) build in Inferno to do any kind of farming at all - my preferred Multishot/HA/Rapid Fire build just doesn't cut it, even with 1500 LoH. Do I enjoy this Caltrops build? Somewhat, but only because I at least get the chance at some loot. I don't enjoy the build in and of itself, thus I get less overall fun out of the game.

This build diversity that the devs say exists - I sure haven't seen it in my time with D3 on any class yet. God I miss having freedom to choose like I did with my Boltress, Orb Sorc, Meteor Sorc, etc.

[melodramocracy]

Squishy Tia, I agree with some of your statements.. but pain monger swings can be completely avoided by simply anticipating when they do the move (there is not only a long windup, but there's also a noise that goes with it. Not allowing yourself to be backed into a corner is a good idea with them, but that goes for a lot of mobs.

Really, there's an answer for just about everything in this game, some classes have a harder time with a higher # of elites than others... (my monk will survive a LOT more elite combos than my DH will, even with kiting, and his much higher dps). But I do agree, since most of those answers arrive in the form of one or two really good defensive talents on the part of the player, there is generally a very clear 'optimal' build for end game per class, with variations being available only when you have the gear to make up for the deficit.

[Mnevis]

I'd very much like to see the stats on popularity of all the various abilities, runes, and passives. Some classes have more in the way of build diversity than others, my Monk for example, aside from using different Mantras (I don't think MoE:HT is anywhere near as ubiquitous as you do, Lily. Serenity however absolutely is), has barely changed his play since Act1 Inferno back in May.

I'm glad they're (apparently) taking a more constructive approach to this round of skill balancing than they did with Nether Tentacles. On the one hand, they absolutely got a bunch of other skills into the demon hunter playbook, but they also really quite neutered the one ability to do so. Thoughtfully buffing the stuff that no one's using is way more *fun*, and that's what the game should be all about, right?

How much would they have to buff the other War Cry runes to make anyone trade in Impunity? Serenity might well be the most commonly used ability, but I'd bet that Impunity is the most commonly used rune (please don't nerf Impunity).

[Lathais]

I'd very much like to see the stats on popularity of all the various abilities, runes, and passives. Some classes have more in the way of build diversity than others, my Monk for example, aside from using different Mantras (I don't think MoE:HT is anywhere near as ubiquitous as you do, Lily. Serenity however absolutely is), has barely changed his play since Act1 Inferno back in May.

I'm glad they're (apparently) taking a more constructive approach to this round of skill balancing than they did with Nether Tentacles. On the one hand, they absolutely got a bunch of other skills into the demon hunter playbook, but they also really quite neutered the one ability to do so. Thoughtfully buffing the stuff that no one's using is way more *fun*, and that's what the game should be all about, right?

How much would they have to buff the other War Cry runes to make anyone trade in Impunity? Serenity might well be the most commonly used ability, but I'd bet that Impunity is the most commonly used rune (please don't nerf Impunity).

Impunity fix is easy, build a 5-10% less version of it into Warcry and have impunity add back the 5-10%. That makes you think about it and maybe use something else, while retaining the reason everyone uses it. Of course then everyone still take's Warcry.

[Mnevis]

Yeah that would be a way to address it without technically nerfing the net effect of using Impunity, but it would just probably just shift everyone to hardened wrath for the armor.

[Lilly32]

3) Overtuned mobs/massively cheap abilities. Act 2 is rife with these.

Id like to get who ever decided it would be funny to troll everyone by loading Act 2 up with wasps alone in a dark alley with no witnesses around.

[Squishy Tia]

Squishy Tia, I agree with some of your statements.. but pain monger swings can be completely avoided by simply anticipating when they do the move (there is not only a long windup, but there's also a noise that goes with it. Not allowing yourself to be backed into a corner is a good idea with them, but that goes for a lot of mobs.

Really, there's an answer for just about everything in this game, some classes have a harder time with a higher # of elites than others... (my monk will survive a LOT more elite combos than my DH will, even with kiting, and his much higher dps). But I do agree, since most of those answers arrive in the form of one or two really good defensive talents on the part of the player, there is generally a very clear 'optimal' build for end game per class, with variations being available only when you have the gear to make up for the deficit.

Re-read my post again. Take note that I did mention that on their own they aren't gamebreaking (but still overtuned). It's with the two scenarios where you're trapped that you can't avoid it. Because the mobs are still bugged to turn while they're winding up, if you're trapped and in range, there's no escape - it will land and kill you. If you're jailed, it will land and kill you unless you have an escape move capable of getting you out of the jail or a defensive cooldown capable of negating/absorbing the hit. But those offer only a brief moment of protection, and when you have mobs chain-jailing you, you're not going to get away.

[Mnevis]

You can also interrupt their swing animation, with a variety of stuns, blinds, pushes, etc, even if you're jailed/walled and the hammer is about to fall. And by no means is it an "instant kill regardless of hp". They just hit much harder than normal attacks. With more armor and resist, you can shrug them off.

ETA: don't really know what this has to do with the topic though...

[Leonard McCoy]

The real problem with build diversity is Inferno. Expect any action to help increase build diversity to also include "changes" (re nerfs) to inferno.

[SurrealNight]

For DH the only thing I really see is maybe giving a few more choices for attack powers but the current (and lack of) defensive abilities is just terrible. You will continue to see Smoke Screen + Prep or Shadow Power + Prep (depending on gear) make up 100% of builds.

Most other builds are totally depending on either how much crit you have or how much tanking stats you have it comes down to a question of how much cash you dumped on the AH.

[Cairhiin]

The real problem with build diversity is Inferno. Expect any action to help increase build diversity to also include "changes" (re nerfs) to inferno.

Yes exactly, this is what I've been saying for a long time. In order to get true diversity, inferno will have to be nerfed. Until that happens most builds will revolve around crucial survival skills. The reason crazy builds like Poisonmancer worked in D2 was because that game was just much easier.

[Libretto]

Why does everyone freak out about wasps, they hit me for maybe 2200 and I 1-shot them.

Monk, btw.

[Cairhiin]

Why does everyone freak out about wasps, they hit me for maybe 2200 and I 1-shot them.

Monk, btw.

Yea I don't find Wasps a problem either (also a Monk).

[Deleted]

Why does everyone freak out about wasps, they hit me for maybe 2200 and I 1-shot them.

Monk, btw.

Yea I don't find Wasps a problem either (also a Monk).

so you both play the inferno faceroll class, i wonder why wasps don´t hurt you

[Bugg]

on inferno a2+ build diversity is a joke.

[Twiddly]

so you both play the inferno faceroll class, i wonder why wasps don´t hurt you

Lol everyone thinks every other class is inferno faceroll. I have a monk, wizard, and witch doctor (poor me) in at least act III inferno, and I think my wizards is pants on head retarded easy.