Are Europeans Naturally Liberal?

[Wildtree]

Well, I'm not that fond of the Pirates, either... But the FDP i not much better >.>
I guess that the FDP, the Pirates and the Left will reach the 5%. Then we we will have a big chaos and in the end SPD+CDU/CSU again :P

You know, I am glad that we have this kind of government. I take our multiparty system over the deathlock of the two-party-system in the USA at any given day.

Bundeswehr is "only" peace keeping in Afghanistan. They are often not even allowed to use their weapons.
And we weren't involved in Iraque and Lybia.

Here's another difference between us and Americans. They are proud to be there, and to defend their country.
We are proud not to be there.
It's beyond my comprehension, how someone can fight on the other side of the planet and calls it self defense. Any argument for that, is pure bullshit and invalid, no matter how hard one tries to twist it. Well, there's one exception. And that's never been used. The exception goes by the known strategy that says attack is the best defense. That however only applies if one threatens you, and an attack on you is rather imminent. Neither is the case.

I am a huge fan of Bill Clinton. But he managed to piss me off more than any other US President throughout my lifespan. When I saw German Tanks abroad. When I saw German soldiers fighting, that pissed me off so bad. I am proud of our paragraph in our constitution. Even tho it was nothing to be proud of, why it got there. But it is there, and that's what matters. We are a one of a kind exception, almost every other country could learn from, in that matter.

As for the comparison someone made between Europeans being naturally pessimistic, and Americans being naturally optimistic. That made me actually laugh. The explanation hit the nail on the head. But I wouldn't call us pessimistic either. Realistic is the word, like someone else pointed out.
Why is it that way? Because of one HUGE difference.
Americans never had to face the grim reality of war.
Their experience with war is extremely limited when it comes to their home land.
- War of independence... That was a long long time ago already now. And the USA as such did not exist. Basically, at that time there was no home land, as we know it now.
- Civil War... That was as close as it gets. But it wasn't nearly as destructive. Tragic, no doubt. But nothing any American today can really draw direct impact from.

Other noticeable events would be the fights over the establishment of the southern borders. Pearl Harbor, and of course 9/11.
Americans don't have the experience of total destruction, like most countries in Europe have. They don't know about losing millions of lives during a war. They don't know how it won't matter how much you've worked and how much money you got, but there's no food for today, unless you find something at some farm fields, or you sneak up to some supply trains and steal coal there, just to have it warm tonight. When wealth and all that jazz matters literally nothing, because you fight a daily fight for survival and essentials to live.
And that's what we Europeans have. Many of us lived it. Our Grand parents, and grand grand parents have been through those times. Our parents still lived with the aftermath. And even if we are too young to really know now. There's not a single European who hasn't heard first account witness stories.
And whatever we know, it's guarded by time documents of ruins who are still around. Many of them purposely, as monuments of warning and memory.

And if Americans had only a glimpse of that, I bet they would also be a bit more social. More oriented towards the greatest good a country has to offer, it's society.

[Deleted]

It's funny, how EVERYONE blames Merkel for the Euro crisis or the failure of the Greek government. That woman worked her ass off! I bet she barely came to bed the weeks, the discussions were ablaze.

And noone I know, can tell an alternative to the things, that are being done right now...

I mean constructive critics are great, but the ones who only blame others and don't have better solutions should keep their mouthes shut ;-)...

The first thing Hollande (the new french "socialist" president) does after the election was to go meet Merkel to talk about eurobond.. Which she dont want at all... Their is alternative to the things Merkel do. You cant say that their is no other alternative just because Merkel dont want anything else than what she is doing.

Actualy, it seems that only Merkel decide what's good to resolve the crisis, and everything else is ignored...

(yeah I'm french... Historicaly bad english... Sorry for that)

[Deleted]

The first thing Hollande (the new french "socialist" president) does after the election was to go meet Merkel to talk about eurobond.. Which she dont want at all... Their is alternative to the things Merkel do. You cant say that their is no other alternative just because Merkel dont want anything else than what she is doing.

Actualy, it seems that only Merkel decide what's good to resolve the crisis, and everything else is ignored...

(yeah I'm french... Historicaly bad english... Sorry for that)

Well, she can't decide on her own. She is not a dictator. But of course she got the majority of the Bundestag for what she represented. Then there was a huge amount of lawsuits against Eurobonds, if I remember it right. The German Supreme Court (Bundesverfassungsgericht) had to decide about it a few days ago.
Actually I got kind of bored by all that financial shit, that I didn't bother to follow the whole thing, as I don't understnad much about it anyway.
They only play around with virtual numbers :P

Her view is, that all countries (including Germany and for example Greece, Italy and Spain) have to do something against the enourmous amount of debts. And for example Hollande and Obama (though he has of course not much to do with the Euro) want to get more borrowed money to pump it into the economy (something that never really worked out).

And yes Merkel hads of course a lot of influence, but the decision isn't only hers. We will see what comes out of it.

@Wildtree: I believe I pointed out in some othere post in this thread, that I'm wuite fond of the German system. I just wanted to give some insight. As I am a pacifist, I also like the way the Bundeswehr works.

[Deleted]

Ehm what? Our capitol (Amsterdam) is pretty much a bastion of Jewish people. The major is pretty much always Jewish, Anne Frank lived there. And let's not forget how many people gave up their lives in the war hiding and protecting the Jews. Across our entire country Jewish people are respected citizens. And let's not forget other places like Antwerp. Or the fact that Israel is slowly integrating into Europe. I bet Israel will be a member of the EU before Turkey even.

Compare that to Muslims in Europe, they are the target for any extremist and the second and third generation of Muslims isn't really helping to be honest. All foreigner hate is focussed on them.


So basically you don't know what you are talking about. Saying something like that means you have no sense at all for history. It is closer to tip-toeing around Jewish problems and giving them TOO much then taking anything from them. Like a guilt we have left from WW2 even though we weren't even the bad guys. Muslims is 100% the other way, they first have to prove that they are a good person before they can catch a break.


The reason however why there is a movement against Israel (which is far from a majority) is that we apparently do get non biased news here. We see that the freedoms of the Palestine people are pushed further back time after time. We see (often orthodox) jews beat the crap out of Palestinians.
Europeans recognise this and we see that both sides aren't sweethearts in stead of the American approach which is basically to cuddle Israel.
It has nothing to do with race but with peace and freedom for both parties.

And if anything, we feel the Jews should be the rational ones in the conflict. We don't expect radical muslims to be rational but Jews don't have a 2000+ year old history with violence.

I agree full heartly with this statement.

If i was a muslim and i needed to flee, i would stay far away from the netherlands atm. You dont often see racism against black and jewish people, but muslims or midle eastern people just can not catch a break. I joined a forum where black americans share their stories, thoughts etc, cause i was shocked at some stories of current racism in america and how race relations formed so differently from here. Each country, continent, has its racists and average people, not all target the same ethnic groups.

[Deleted]

Well, she can't decide on her own. She is not a dictator. But of course she got the majority of the Bundestag for what she represented. Then there was a huge amount of lawsuits against Eurobonds, if I remember it right. The German Supreme Court (Bundesverfassungsgericht) had to decide about it a few days ago.
Actually I got kind of bored by all that financial shit, that I didn't bother to follow the whole thing, as I don't understnad much about it anyway.
They only play around with virtual numbers :P

Her view is, that all countries (including Germany and for example Greece, Italy and Spain) have to do something against the enourmous amount of debts. And for example Hollande and Obama (though he has of course not much to do with the Euro) want to get more borrowed money to pump it into the economy (something that never really worked out).

And yes Merkel hads of course a lot of influence, but the decision isn't only hers. We will see what comes out of it.

@Wildtree: I believe I pointed out in some othere post in this thread, that I'm wuite fond of the German system. I just wanted to give some insight. As I am a pacifist, I also like the way the Bundeswehr works.

I know all that. But you were saying "And noone I know, can tell an alternative to the things, that are being done right now...
I mean constructive critics are great, but the ones who only blame others and don't have better solutions should keep their mouthes shut ;-)..."

But their is alternatives, and some you "know" (assuming you know who's Hollande), can tell an alternative. Sarkozy (previous French president) also had alternative! This was what I wanted to pointed out of my quote from you. (without any animosity )
Who knows what is the best solution? I dont...

[Deleted]

I don't know what the statistical data looks like, but I know that France has a fair number of violent clashes between Muslims and non-Muslims, including quite a bit of anti-Muslim violence. This isn't unheard of in the United States, but it's fairly rare. I think Muslim immigration to the EU has more to do with geographic concerns than any sort of "pro-Muslim" attitude. Claiming that having more Muslim immigrants than the US demonstrates a pro-Muslim attitude would be a bit like saying that since the US has more Mexican immigrants than the EU, the US must be "pro-Mexican".

I agree, i think that muslims in western europe have a very hard time nowadays. They arent treated fair and with equal level of respect and expectations. Some of it is their own doing, and some of it is ignorance from the majority. Dont know if it solely geographical, but it prob plays a part in it. Europe used to be more pro-any immigrant till the big waves of immigrants hit the country, then everything flipped and people are seen as second hand citizens.

---------- Post added 2012-09-21 at 05:59 PM ----------

Ehm what? Our capitol (Amsterdam) is pretty much a bastion of Jewish people. The major is pretty much always Jewish, Anne Frank lived there. And let's not forget how many people gave up their lives in the war hiding and protecting the Jews. Across our entire country Jewish people are respected citizens. And let's not forget other places like Antwerp. Or the fact that Israel is slowly integrating into Europe. I bet Israel will be a member of the EU before Turkey even.

Compare that to Muslims in Europe, they are the target for any extremist and the second and third generation of Muslims isn't really helping to be honest. All foreigner hate is focussed on them.


So basically you don't know what you are talking about. Saying something like that means you have no sense at all for history. It is closer to tip-toeing around Jewish problems and giving them TOO much then taking anything from them. Like a guilt we have left from WW2 even though we weren't even the bad guys. Muslims is 100% the other way, they first have to prove that they are a good person before they can catch a break.


The reason however why there is a movement against Israel (which is far from a majority) is that we apparently do get non biased news here. We see that the freedoms of the Palestine people are pushed further back time after time. We see (often orthodox) jews beat the crap out of Palestinians.
Europeans recognise this and we see that both sides aren't sweethearts in stead of the American approach which is basically to cuddle Israel.
It has nothing to do with race but with peace and freedom for both parties.

And if anything, we feel the Jews should be the rational ones in the conflict. We don't expect radical muslims to be rational but Jews don't have a 2000+ year old history with violence.

Amen, when a lot of americans claim they know that europe is more anti-semetic it is of the information that was fed to them by jews in america. Ofcourse they do not want to tell the whole truth with the things they have been doing. In europe people are taught to be skeptical, so we wont just take it for granted. So when we question the tactics and decisions made by jews that makes us anti-semetic? Then we are anti everything, cause we question our own government as well, just like any other.

They should be more appreciative of all the people that sacrificed their lives, family lives in order to save a lot of them. Spreading selected information is dimishing to the brave acts of those people..

[Draeblin]

european law is ALWAYS treated above your country law

nope

ten chars blablabla

[Paladin885]

since the French Revolution (the 1st one, they've had like 6 since then) you'd think so, but no, there are some conservative views.

But nothing like here in america... conservatism here is all backwards these days. Euro-conservatism is like old-old school democratic here in America.

[Talokami]

Amen, when a lot of americans claim they know that europe is more anti-semetic it is of the information that was fed to them by jews in america. Ofcourse they do not want to tell the whole truth with the things they have been doing. In europe people are taught to be skeptical, so we wont just take it for granted. So when we question the tactics and decisions made by jews that makes us anti-semetic? Then we are anti everything, cause we question our own government as well, just like any other.

They should be more appreciative of all the people that sacrificed their lives, family lives in order to save a lot of them. Spreading selected information is dimishing to the brave acts of those people..

Honestly, I think the American opinion of Europe being anti-Jewish stems from people only paying attention to WWII. I didn't see too many people in the Jewish community in modern times saying Europeans treat Jews like crap. Anyone who does say that needs a good figurative smack upside the head. The only other major event in recent history I can think of is the mass exodus of Jews from Russia under Gorbachev's government, and that happened because he finally allowed Jews unlimited emigration.

Most of the truly awful anti-Jewish propaganda in Europe happened in the Middle Ages and Renaissance; it was pretty much over by the 19th century after large populations of Jews left for America. A few pogroms still happened but it was nowhere near the extent of medieval Europe.

Edit: Oops. I goofed. Turns out the pogroms were the 18th-19th century. :x

[Deleted]

since the French Revolution (the 1st one, they've had like 6 since then)

huh?

I'm French, and don't know what you're talking about.... tell me what is a revolution for you?

the only one I know, is the one where we cuted some "noble" heads. after that, I can't see any other revolutions.

[yetgdhfgh]

Its a cultural thing Im english and grew up in a quite socialist country

Most european countrys were quite conservative untill after the war then socialism took over
Reason for this was people had to come together for the common good during the war

Rich wealthy families had to take in poor kids from the slums and most were shocked how they lived

Reason why Churchil was voted out before the war ended and Clement Atlee who was the leader of the socialist labour party won in a landslide and created the welfare state this happened in other countrys too.

these social changes didnt really happen in the US tbh most returning soldiers didnt need welfare cause they was coming back to a country that was booming
unlike most european soldiers who came back to burnt homes and a uncertain future

The social changes like the NHS have endured even under governments like maggie thatchers conservative party

Now i know technically that socialism and liberalism are different but im assuming this is what you mean cause im a socialist but im actually very conservative in many of my views

[Deleted]

Now i know technically that socialism and liberalism are different but im assuming this is what you mean cause im a socialist but im actually very conservative in many of my views

So you are for socialism when it comes to welfare and the economy, but conservative when it comes to social issues like marriage, drugs, gambling, prostitution etc?

[yetgdhfgh]

So you are for socialism when it comes to welfare and the economy, but conservative when it comes to social issues like marriage, drugs, gambling, prostitution etc?

Something like that yeah i guess its my upbringing in a working class household

[Zecora]

It seems there are very few conservative Europeans these days. Is it just super Liberal over there in Europe? Are there any conservative parties who use fiscal responsibility in their decision making? Most of the things I see from European news outlets in general is a bunch of Liberal propaganda to scare / guilt trip people into thinking socialism is the answer and the ethical way to live life.

More and more government control, and less and less wise decision making, less freedoms for the people.

I mean look what happened to Greece

Are you actually interested in knowing whether Europeans are "naturally liberal" (whatever that means), or is this just another attempt to honk the "government steals your freedom / liberalism is evil / socialism is evil" horn? The last two sentences of your post makes me seriously wonder.

Anyhow, on the off chance that it is the former: Claiming that Europeans are "naturally" liberal makes as little logical sense as saying that Americans are "naturally" conservative. In most European countries, the culture is more liberal (although that word has been dilluted with labels such as "neo-liberal" comming into use), and so a greater majority is liberal there. Why? Because they see that it works well, and it fits their own values. Take 10 000 newborn europeans and place them in the US, and there'll be as many conservatives among them in 20 years as there is in the general US public (and vice versa, take Americans to Europe and you'll find as many liberals there in 20 years and in the general population).

The fact is that liberal values in running a country works just as well as any other values (better in my opinion), but it takes responsible people to make it work, just like any other value system. WHEN it works, I maintain that liberal (or better yet, socialist) systems work better than conservative ones, as a greater percentage of the population has access to healthcare, higher education and a safety net in the event of misfortune, and thus more people participate actively in the economy. I freely admit that I am biased though, but so is everyone who has an opinion on the matter.

[Deleted]

It seems there are very few conservative Europeans these days. Is it just super Liberal over there in Europe? Are there any conservative parties who use fiscal responsibility in their decision making? Most of the things I see from European news outlets in general is a bunch of Liberal propaganda to scare / guilt trip people into thinking socialism is the answer and the ethical way to live life.

More and more government control, and less and less wise decision making, less freedoms for the people.

I mean look what happened to Greece

although you are banned im gonna ask the obvious...
are you naturally an idiot ? or the american media turned you into one ?