1. #12361
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    The stretch goals kept going until just before 2015 so it was the community that wanted the game to keep growing larger
    This doesn't really "help" the argument for two reasons -

    1. All the stretch goals were created by CR, he had to know that most of these would greatly extend the timetable for development and should have known this well before the "2016" target dates they briefly included in videos and stated. Like, extremely obvious that with these stretch goals prior windows would be completely thrown out.

    2. Democratizing development like this isn't the best idea because the general public doesn't know what actually goes into these stretch goals. They don't understand the kinds of delays this will cause, the potential technical challenges etc. etc. It's an abject failure of management in pursuit of ever more and more funding rather than saying, "This is the game we want, this is what we can reasonably make, and this is what we're making. If you want to keep funding us, please do, but we will not compromise the integrity of the product."

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    CR gave an option to expand the game or develop the first version and the community went with wanting everything that CR could give them.
    Which is a failure on the part of CR as a manager, again. This is why crowdfunded games may work with their communities closely on development, but don't let their communities "dictate" the scope of a game. Because the community can't know the risks associated with it on any meaningful level.

    More evidence of this? All the failed KS projects promising the sun and moon and fully interactive MMO's that are more ambitious than any AAA for....a few hundred thousand. And they get backing.

    Why? Because players aren't developers. They're not engineers. They're not managers. It's up to management to manage expectations and risk. CR has done absolutely zero of either.

    That. Is. Bad. Management.

  2. #12362
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    The stretch goals kept going until just before 2015 so it was the community that wanted the game to keep growing larger so it wasnt really anything to do with management as it was the community that was pushing to expand the game. CR gave an option to expand the game or develop the first version and the community went with wanting everything that CR could give them.

    So its not really a suprise when it takes a great deal longer to develop the much larger version of the game.
    So the community thinks that developing AI behaviors to make sure they can use toilets and showers, create new animations for beds and standardizing the proper usage of bed shutters is what's necessary right now.

    Looks like the game is looking in great shape if this kind of small touches are already being worked on.

    Great work Star Citizen community and impressive management skills from the admins for listening to this great feedback.

  3. #12363
    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    Nah, don't mix things up: in every video game, there are independent teams that work on different things. The game wouldn't be finished, just because the team wouldn't work on it anymore.

    Does it change the fact that the only thing working in SC is the cash shop: nope.
    Fully aware that there are dozens of different teams working on the game right now. I'm just curious where the, "Make sure NPC's can interact with bedsheets and use the toilet" fits on the priority list right now, because it seems a bit...high given the work needed to do on the entire rest of the game? Surely the team working on NPC AI has more pressing priorities than making sure an NPC can take a shit?

  4. #12364
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    It seems you are not in touch with reality, there is no company or organisation that can say it has ideal management.
    Properly and ideally are not the same thing. You just said something absolutely idiotic, there absolutely are properly managed companies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  5. #12365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Properly and ideally are not the same thing. You just said something absolutely idiotic, there absolutely are properly managed companies.
    Microsoft being one. Which is kind of funny because MS had to push CRobberts out of his last project because he was such a fucking liar and moron.

  6. #12366
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    snip
    unless a project fails its not bad management, management is not just the person at the top its the whole chain of a company and every single company in existance has its management failures, if anyone claims otherwise they are just talking nonsense.

    The community wanted a bigger game, so thats whats CR is given us and a larger game means it takes longer to develop, so unless the project completely fails then claiming a company has bad management is just an opinion.

    The origional game was just going to be a pure space game and not much at all to do with planets, i much prefer waiting for the actual space game i have been waiting for instead of just another game that doesnt last all that long. Chris has already stated outright on many occasion he will not comprimise on his game so you just have to suck it up and wait until its ready.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Properly and ideally are not the same thing. You just said something absolutely idiotic, there absolutely are properly managed companies.
    There is no properly managed company, humans are the weak point and there is always a failure at some stage, most are minor failures but still you cant claim any company is properly managed.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  7. #12367
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    unless a project fails its not bad management
    lolwut? It fucking absolutely can be bad management even if the project chugs along.

  8. #12368
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    unless a project fails its not bad management
    Patently, 100% incorrect. Like, I can't begin to describe how utterly incorrect this is. ME:A wasn't a "failure", it turned a profit, but it was a clusterfuck shitshow that killed a studio and hurt the reputation of both the BW/ME brands. And was purely due to awful, terrible, no-good management.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    management is not just the person at the top its the whole chain of a company and every single company in existance has its management failures, if anyone claims otherwise they are just talking nonsense.
    When you have a known and admitted micromanager that likes to be involved in everything like CR, yes, it is. It all flows upwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    The community wanted a bigger game, so thats whats CR is given us and a larger game means it takes longer to develop, so unless the project completely fails then claiming a company has bad management is just an opinion.
    Just because players "want" something doesn't mean it's a good idea. And remember, CR voluntarily added all of these things as well, knowing the complexity that many would add onto the existing game, and knowing well before the "2016" windows for SQ42.

    Players want anything and everything, but most of what they want is often impractical. That's where it's on good managers to identify reasonable features and tech additions that they can achieve and clearly communicate to their playerbase that some of what they want isn't remotely reasonable without a decade+ of R&D just to see if the tech is viable.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Chris has already stated outright on many occasion he will not comprimise on his game so you just have to suck it up and wait until its ready.
    Failure to compromise is a literal failure of management. Sometimes you have to compromise in life, not because a publisher or investor is telling you to, but because you realize your goal/vision may not be achievable so you need to scale back. It's a key part of management and creating a product.

  9. #12369
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    The origional game was just going to be a pure space game and not much at all to do with planets, i much prefer waiting for the actual space game i have been waiting for instead of just another game that doesnt last all that long. Chris has already stated outright on many occasion he will not comprimise on his game so you just have to suck it up and wait until its ready.
    The CR apologist says it is okay so its okay! I guess them putting years at the end of videos was just him testing if it was ready. It wasn't ready so back in the cauldron it goes.

  10. #12370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://robertsspaceindustries.com/c...ort-April-2021



    Maybe I'm old fashioned but is working on AI behaviors to make sure they can use toilets and showers really a big feature in the game? Is it something demanding developer time right now given all the other priorities the game is facing?

    Physicalized sheets? Using bed shutters? Are they going to simulate the digestion of NPCs? The formation of fecal matter? How about splash physics? Waste reclamation? Will there be a detailed system to eject waste into space?

    Is any of this necessary right now?
    I guess it'd be a nice touch but it's not remotely relevant right now. NPCs have been bugged since 2017 and either march in place, stand in place, or are stuck T-posed in a chair, so you won't get to notice these details anyway.






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  11. #12371
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I guess it'd be a nice touch but it's not remotely relevant right now. NPCs have been bugged since 2017 and either march in place, stand in place, or are stuck T-posed in a chair, so you won't get to notice these details anyway.
    I guess they are united in purpose to T-pose and look like some fucked up horror movie.

  12. #12372
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I guess it'd be a nice touch but it's not remotely relevant right now. NPCs have been bugged since 2017 and either march in place, stand in place, or are stuck T-posed in a chair, so you won't get to notice these details anyway.
    Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. There are bigger problems to address, and things like making sure NPC's can physically tuck themselves into bed and sit on a toilet - behaviors which players will not be regularly be encountering (and don't even need to be simulated "off-screen") should be later in the pipeline when all core NPC AI behaviors, especially critical NPC behaviors (vendors, things like the landing officer, ect.) and more commonly encountered NPC's (guards, 'filler' NPC's etc.), are already complete and locked in.

  13. #12373
    Struggling so hard to spin things we're now going on about how there couldn't possibly be a well-managed company in all of existence because humans are involved... and that there can only be bad management if a project completely fails. Wow.

    Long past time certain people took a step back and did some reflecting. Or maybe bathroom animations are just totally innovative and super important so everything is 110% fine in this glorious company with the enlightened visionary Chris Roberts at the helm. He's certainly never had issues in the past, no sir!

    Oh, scratch that, we're already walking back on the management point.
    Last edited by UnifiedDivide; 2021-05-06 at 05:14 PM.

  14. #12374
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    snip
    I backed because i wanted a CR game where he does his best to make that game happen and accepting any and all risks that goes along with it, so failure to compromise is not a failure in management for developing the game you actually want. There are far too many lackluster space games and no other company is bothering to make them or at least one that gives the whole experience in one game.

    As long as it launches and there is a decent playerbase that plays it then its not a failure is it, doesnt matter is management is good or bad a good game is still a good game.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  15. #12375
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    I backed because i wanted a CR game where he does his best to make that game happen and accepting any and all risks that goes along with it, so failure to compromise is not a failure in management for developing the game you actually want. There are far too many lackluster space games and no other company is bothering to make them or at least one that gives the whole experience in one game.

    As long as it launches and there is a decent playerbase that plays it then its not a failure is it, doesnt matter is management is good or bad a good game is still a good game.
    We get it you have unrealistic expectations, don't understand how good management works and have no problem tossing your money into a pit because it is just a risk and you want to fuel the dreams of CR. Do you not understand that your views are you know, not typical? You try to present your side as if it is the only side and a fact.

    I've seen the open laughter by people that have paid to back this game, many of them investing quite a lot of cash into this game. It is an open joke among your own SC community on their own forums.

  16. #12376
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://robertsspaceindustries.com/c...ort-April-2021



    Maybe I'm old fashioned but is working on AI behaviors to make sure they can use toilets and showers really a big feature in the game? Is it something demanding developer time right now given all the other priorities the game is facing?

    Physicalized sheets? Using bed shutters? Are they going to simulate the digestion of NPCs? The formation of fecal matter? How about splash physics? Waste reclamation? Will there be a detailed system to eject waste into space?

    Is any of this necessary right now?
    They have a giant studio who are all waiting for Server Meshing to be implemented (gl with that!) so they can actually do important stuff. So to pass the time and pretend like they are useful they code realistic bed sheet physics.

    This stuff only exists because they can't figure out the actual bottlenecks.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  17. #12377
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    I dont know about you but as a backer every 2 weeks everyone is updated on the progress of whats being done with SQ42 so stop talking BS about them saying nothing.
    Kenn, they have been "updating" people for 8 years now. The finished game is no closer for it. At some point you might have to consider that bi-weekly sweet nothings are not an indication of progress.

  18. #12378
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    We get it you have unrealistic expectations, don't understand how good management works and have no problem tossing your money into a pit because it is just a risk and you want to fuel the dreams of CR. Do you not understand that your views are you know, not typical? You try to present your side as if it is the only side and a fact.

    I've seen the open laughter by people that have paid to back this game, many of them investing quite a lot of cash into this game. It is an open joke among your own SC community on their own forums.
    My views are backed up by one simple fact, much of the playerbase and new playerbase are giving more money than previous years by a large margin to get this game made, so whats it like being wrong yet again, there is only so much you can spend until you have all the ships so its not just rich players sinking loads, its all those minor upgrades combined.

    If players didnt believe in the project it wouldnt be making more money than its ever done it wouldnt of brought in at least around 37 million in the past 7 months alone, thats how bad players want this game to be made because there is no other game available that comes even slightly close.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  19. #12379
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    There is no properly managed company, humans are the weak point and there is always a failure at some stage, most are minor failures but still you cant claim any company is properly managed.
    Oh but I can and I also can claim that you keep posting in bad faith.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  20. #12380
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post

    If players didnt believe in the project it wouldnt be making more money than its ever done it wouldnt of brought in at least around 37 million in the past 7 months alone, thats how bad players want this game to be made because there is no other game available that comes even slightly close.
    Because it's over ambitious and even SC will not even come close to it's own ideals.

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