[Megathread] Star Citizen

[kenn9530]

WoW has the level skip and I guess you could argue token->gold can buy you gear, GW2 has the ability to buy gold for gear, but there's basically nothing that exists in PoE that is a "skip" or "win" mechanic. Also "every game has p2w" ... ????... I mean, maybe you believe this if you've played like 5 games in your lifetime but there is a huge number of games without this...

poe you can buy currency and items with real money in turn you can buy the best items and do any content you want.

Yeah, ships roles... how are those relevant here? There is 2 things I know about this game stated by Chris himself, that "rare" ships are being sold for real-cash and that the game will have open-PvP, your assumptions on the amount of people being assholes just for the sake of it in the internet and how easily it will be to avoid them doesn't make it any better.





No, you can't.




Also irrelevant, can be applied to any other game out there.




Then just say it from that start, that you just don't really mind it (which is totally fine) instead of downplaying and denying facts.

Everyone has equal access to getting most of the ships currently, there is no rare ships, just how often they see use, also there is real consequences for being a pirate player, what those are we dont yet know but blowing up randoms in starter ships is not the sort of gameplay SC encourages and if your griefing for the sake of it then that sort of behaviour is not tolerated by the devs.

In wow everything available in game can be bought with gold, rank 1 glad titles, current raid clears with the mount and all the BiS items for your char.

[kenn9530]

Hang on, I’ll re-quote our friend Chris Roberts again:



Also, what do you mean developers won’t tolerate it? Are they going to punish players for forcing PvP in an open-PvP game? Where are you getting this information from?



No, it is not, you are just purposely confusing paying others players to boost you thought content with pay-2-win, while completely ignoring that you still need to go through the content yourself and the RNG system doesn’t ensure you anything, something that you don’t need to worry about by popping up the in-game store and throwing cash at it.

A rare ship would mean its different to others you can buy, everyone has a chance to get one but most wont buy the expensive ships, they are still obtainable in game so rare in this case is just fewer people buying certain ships.

They have already stated in one of the verse episodes while they expect the odd player to sometime blow someone up for no apparant reason, there will be things in place to punish players who are griefing for the sake of it which is not in the spirit of actual gameplay, kill someone once or twice fair enough, but stopping them from playing the game is what is not going to be tolerated.

The whole point in WoW is getting the best equipment, those rare raid mounts, raid titles, pvp titles/mounts, most guilds wont be able to clear many end raid bosses to get those mounts, in WoW the winning is having the things most other players dont, if your paying for a raid boost they will usually have you die so your not even doing any of the content, your paying for all the rewards and none of the effort, that is the P2W in wow.

[Kyanion]

tell me why im wrong, wow, gw2, poe, every game has some sort of p2w/skip mechanic, even if its not official by the game you can still use money for pretty much everything.

You said it is in EVERY single game, without exception. So you named what, 3 or 4 games and sorry p2w isn't the same as a skip mechanic.

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WoW you can buy anything with gold, rare raid mounts, best gear, while wow is different to SC the main goals for certain ppl is having those mounts and BiS gear, and as with SC you still will need skill to use that equipment properly, so you can have that bigger ship and maybe be able to put up a better fight or something but someone can always beat you.

What a load of shit. First of all you can't buy ANYTHING with gold. Just because you toss this supposed unlimited gold at the problem it does not mean the mount drops, or the gear drops. And is that winning to you? Having the best gear and all the mounts? Because that isn't the same goal in WoW for everyone. Some of us enjoy raiding, doing dungeons, pvp and so on. Having random mount 943 does not mean shit.

Most people in WoW also didn't plunk down a fuckton of real cash like they are doing in SC. So I guess by that measure the people playing WoW are winning..

[kenn9530]

You said it is in EVERY single game, without exception. So you named what, 3 or 4 games and sorry p2w isn't the same as a skip mechanic.

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What a load of shit. First of all you can't buy ANYTHING with gold. Just because you toss this supposed unlimited gold at the problem it does not mean the mount drops, or the gear drops. And is that winning to you? Having the best gear and all the mounts? Because that isn't the same goal in WoW for everyone. Some of us enjoy raiding, doing dungeons, pvp and so on. Having random mount 943 does not mean shit.

Most people in WoW also didn't plunk down a fuckton of real cash like they are doing in SC. So I guess by that measure the people playing WoW are winning..

what are you even talking about you can buy anything available ingame with gold, rank 1 titles, mythic raid boosts until your geared and you can buy that raid mount with 100% drop rate, carried through acheivements, high lvl mythic plus carries, arena/bg boosts, also with at least 10 years of subs you have spent around 1550 on a 15 year old game if you also bought at least the basic expansion when it launched everytime so dont say people dont spend alot of money on wow, thats even without buying gold or instore things.

Plus the people who have put down lots of money in SC is in the minority, the big game packages were extremely limited so people who have things like idris and the destroyer should be very limited, if your a solo player your not going to be flying in much more than a 4-5 man ship as you wont be able to operate it fully even with an npc crew.

There is lots of mechanics we dont know about yet and it seems anyones only real argument is about player pirates, there are going to be consequences for pirate players, npc patrols, not being able to even go near certain planets, maybe even a distress call system onboard your ship you can use to alert the navy patrols in the area, currently we dont know how it will work, some players will have an advantage yes but this game is large and its not easy to find people and you always can run away if you see a criminal player in your area.

[Kyanion]

what are you even talking about you can buy anything available ingame with gold, rank 1 titles, mythic raid boosts until your geared and you can buy that raid mount with 100% drop rate, carried through acheivements, high lvl mythic plus carries, arena/bg boosts, also with at least 10 years of subs you have spent around 1550 on a 15 year old game if you also bought at least the basic expansion when it launched everytime so dont say people dont spend alot of money on wow, thats even without buying gold or instore things.

Plus the people who have put down lots of money in SC is in the minority, the big game packages were extremely limited so people who have things like idris and the destroyer should be very limited, if your a solo player your not going to be flying in much more than a 4-5 man ship as you wont be able to operate it fully even with an npc crew.

First of all, where does this endless gold come from in WoW? You sure aren't getting enough in game by selling tokens you paid real cash for because it hardly gives enough gold to buy a boost for rank 1 titles and mythics raiding. You can't pay2win in game if there isn't enough currency to do such things. If you start talking illegal gold buying well good luck risking your account.

Oh noez WoW has a sub that provides hours of entertainment for my 15 dollars a month, such horror. I guess I better go out one night instead and drop 50+ dollars on entertainment. Or....actually I just could use my in game gold and buy a token and have zero cost to play the game and buy expansions as it has been for years for me.

Umm just like gacha games and other games like SC the game is mostly funded by whales, not Joe Everyman plunking down 10 bucks, what is your point?

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There is lots of mechanics we dont know about yet and it seems anyones only real argument is about player pirates, there are going to be consequences for pirate players, npc patrols, not being able to even go near certain planets, maybe even a distress call system onboard your ship you can use to alert the navy patrols in the area, currently we dont know how it will work, some players will have an advantage yes but this game is large and its not easy to find people and you always can run away if you see a criminal player in your area.

Lots of mechanics you sound like you are speculating on. You have no idea how this shit will be if the game actually launches. And oh noez, consequences from NPCs as my murder squad goes around blowing up Pay2Win ships people bought, such horror.

I love how you try to gloss over that some players will have an advantage on day 1 and beyond. Open those wallets boys, you're better than everyone else!

[kenn9530]

First of all, where does this endless gold come from in WoW? You sure aren't getting enough in game by selling tokens you paid real cash for because it hardly gives enough gold to buy a boost for rank 1 titles and mythics raiding. You can't pay2win in game if there isn't enough currency to do such things. If you start talking illegal gold buying well good luck risking your account.

Oh noez WoW has a sub that provides hours of entertainment for my 15 dollars a month, such horror. I guess I better go out one night instead and drop 50+ dollars on entertainment. Or....actually I just could use my in game gold and buy a token and have zero cost to play the game and buy expansions as it has been for years for me.

Umm just like gacha games and other games like SC the game is mostly funded by whales, not Joe Everyman plunking down 10 bucks, what is your point?

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Lots of mechanics you sound like you are speculating on. You have no idea how this shit will be if the game actually launches. And oh noez, consequences from NPCs as my murder squad goes around blowing up Pay2Win ships people bought, such horror.

I love how you try to gloss over that some players will have an advantage on day 1 and beyond. Open those wallets boys, you're better than everyone else!

Some of the consequences of being a pirate will be not being able land at any UEE controlled landing area/station, cant travel through UEE space without high risk of being destroyed, npc and player bounty hunters, piracy in SC is nothing like EVE and other games, also you wont really be able to tell the difference between NPCs flying around the system and players, npc patrols are not just running around in basic fighters, they are already ingame in hammerheads and larger squadrons able to easily fight against most ships.

Also why would you want to blow up every ship you see, what profit is that going to yield, if you see a target that could possibly yield millions if you actually board and steal it.

[Kyanion]

Some of the consequences of being a pirate will be not being able land at any UEE controlled landing area/station, cant travel through UEE space without high risk of being destroyed, npc and player bounty hunters, piracy in SC is nothing like EVE and other games, also you wont really be able to tell the difference between NPCs flying around the system and players, npc patrols are not just running around in basic fighters, they are already ingame in hammerheads and larger squadrons able to easily fight against most ships.

Also why would you want to blow up every ship you see, what profit is that going to yield, if you see a target that could possibly yield millions if you actually board and steal it.

Maybe some people play games to be assholes? I'm not one of those people but I know they are out there. If a person can buy the game on the cheap, fly around and grief others you can bet your ass it will happen. PvP sounds like a train wreck waiting to happen in that game.

I also love how you dropped the pay 2 win argument about WoW after getting called on it.

[kenn9530]

Maybe some people play games to be assholes? I'm not one of those people but I know they are out there. If a person can buy the game on the cheap, fly around and grief others you can bet your ass it will happen. PvP sounds like a train wreck waiting to happen in that game.

I also love how you dropped the pay 2 win argument about WoW after getting called on it.

you already lost the wow argument, you can buy boosts, gear, rare mounts, acheivements, anything currently still available you can buy it all with real money

[Kyanion]

you already lost the wow argument, you can buy boosts, gear, rare mounts, acheivements, anything currently still available you can buy it all with real money

You REALLY don't understand what pay 2 win is, do you? You can NOT open up the wow 'cash shop' and buy an achievement, or a rare mount from some raid or instant rank 1 pvp ranks. They aren't there. What you CAN do is spend real money on a token amount of gold that can NOT buy such things because they are too fucking expensive in gold.

What you COULD do is be really stupid and pay real cash to PEOPLE that sell such boosts, mythic runs and so on. This is not pay 2 win as it is defined by many people. This is you risking your money, your account to outside sources. There is a BIG fucking difference from people buying ships from SC's cash shop and paying people in WoW to run you through something. You are being willfully ignorant and it is pretty sad.

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You are still ignoring what I pointed out about it though.

He won't engage in a real discussion, he just tries to handwave things away.

[kenn9530]

“It’s not rare.”
“It’s no different to others.”
“It just happens to be more expensive.”
“… so fewer people buy them.”

Okkaaaayyy…



The odd player? Dude, it’s an online game with open-PvP, it will happen, a fucking lot.

If developers think that manually reviewing these cases is the way to go, best of luck for them, though they might end up reaching the conclusion why others open-PvP MMOs avoid it.



I learn so much around here, in Start Citizen there is no “winning”, but in WoW “winning” is just having more shit than the others, and here I was thinking that it varies from player to player, you know, some just want to get world-firsts with their guilds, others want to be at the top of the PvP leaderboards, other just get care about their roleplays…

Also, as I said, you still need to go through the content, even if you doing nothing at all, you are still going trough it, no rewards are ensured due the RNG system, and you are extremely restricted because the weekly lockout system, and you still need to find a guild with a free slot willing to sell you, it’s slightly different from picking whatever you want directly from a cash-shop, you are free to call it “P2W”, I just don’t believe that’s how vast majority interprets it though.

Tell me, if Star Citizen wasn’t selling ships, upgrades and whatnot, would you argue that paying other players to boost your trough missions would make it P2W? Dude, I gave you the WoW example for a reason, but you just had to take it and push it into ridiculous extreme nonsense… look, I don’t disagree that WoW as pay 2 win elements in it, although nothing to do with the crap that you are trying to pull here, but stuff like character boosts and tokens can easily fit in it, however, as you said, it can be done without having much of an impact in the game itself, and it kind of shows, most don’t really care about it, some including people like me even approve due the opportunities it brings (such as playing the game without paying), and this might end up being the case with SC, expect no one really knows, because when asked about it, instead of details about the matter, we got a “ah ah, win? There is no winning here!” shitty response.

every game has some sort of p2w element in it, might not be purely power but if you can use real money to buy something many others possibly cant afford then the player with money will always be at an advantage up to the point where a player has more skill at that game.

If the mechanics are solid in the game like piracy with true consequences then the occasion you do encounter pirates/maruders then its just something you have to live with, even without buying all those ships there are still going to be players with better ships than you.

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every game has some sort of p2w element in it, might not be purely power but if you can use real money to buy something many others possibly cant afford then the player with money will always be at an advantage up to the point where a player has more skill at that game.

If the mechanics are solid in the game like piracy with true consequences then the occasion you do encounter pirates/maruders then its just something you have to live with, even without buying all those ships there are still going to be players with better ships than you.

You REALLY don't understand what pay 2 win is, do you? You can NOT open up the wow 'cash shop' and buy an achievement, or a rare mount from some raid or instant rank 1 pvp ranks. They aren't there. What you CAN do is spend real money on a token amount of gold that can NOT buy such things because they are too fucking expensive in gold.

What you COULD do is be really stupid and pay real cash to PEOPLE that sell such boosts, mythic runs and so on. This is not pay 2 win as it is defined by many people. This is you risking your money, your account to outside sources. There is a BIG fucking difference from people buying ships from SC's cash shop and paying people in WoW to run you through something. You are being willfully ignorant and it is pretty sad.

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He won't engage in a real discussion, he just tries to handwave things away.

p2w is different depending on the game, in wow these days its more about the rare items/titles/feats of strength rather than direct power from mythic raids but BiS items are still from raids and mythic plus where you can buy the boosts.

All players have equal access to any of the ships through real money currently or ingame currency when it launches, no player is getting something that another cant earn later with time, its going to take crew and lots of currency to operate the larger ships in SC so there are going to be drawbacks to using expensive ships.

[Kyanion]

every game has some sort of p2w element in it, might not be purely power but if you can use real money to buy something many others possibly cant afford then the player with money will always be at an advantage up to the point where a player has more skill at that game.

You need to go and read what the word 'every' means.

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p2w is different depending on the game, in wow these days its more about the rare items/titles/feats of strength rather than direct power from mythic raids but BiS items are still from raids and mythic plus where you can buy the boosts.

You don't get to decide what the definition of p2w is but hey whatever, you've been changing it ever since you started in on this rant.

[kenn9530]

You need to go and read what the word 'every' means.

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You don't get to decide what the definition of p2w is but hey whatever, you've been changing it ever since you started in on this rant.

In regards to pay 2 win there is no clear defintion, you dont have to be able to directly buy power just being able to use real money for a game to obtain hard to get or rare items/achievements is enough to put it in the area of p2w, it seems to me your the one putting a fine line on what pay 2 win actually is.

In regards to every game, i would hope you have sense to relate to online orientated games like BDO, GW2, WOW, Wildlands, EVE, Entropia, STO, Rift, Champions online, Tera, Wildstar, Skyforge, Neverwinter, but you could pay someone to play any game and complete it if you wanted to

[Kyanion]

In regards to pay 2 win there is no clear defintion, you dont have to be able to directly buy power just being able to use real money for a game to obtain hard to get or rare items/achievements is enough to put it in the area of p2w, it seems to me your the one putting a fine line on what pay 2 win actually is.

In regards to every game, i would hope you have sense to relate to online orientated games like BDO, GW2, WOW, Wildlands, EVE, Entropia, STO, Rift, Champions online, Tera, Wildstar, Skyforge, Neverwinter, but you could pay someone to play any game and complete it if you wanted to

Pay2win has a very clear definition. If you are buying items from a cash shop that give you a direct increase in power, such as equipment that would normally come from a dungeon or raid, or boosts that give you a measure of power that normal players could not obtain through in game methods (such as a buff that just gives you 20% more damage or something), that is pay 2 win. You are viewing outside influence such as players clearing a raid and selling a mount or items from the run as pay 2 win, it isn't.

Some of those games you listed have pay 2 win elements, WoW isn't one of them.

[Wilian]

In regards to pay 2 win there is no clear defintion, you dont have to be able to directly buy power just being able to use real money for a game to obtain hard to get or rare items/achievements is enough to put it in the area of p2w, it seems to me your the one putting a fine line on what pay 2 win actually is.

In regards to every game, i would hope you have sense to relate to online orientated games like BDO, GW2, WOW, Wildlands, EVE, Entropia, STO, Rift, Champions online, Tera, Wildstar, Skyforge, Neverwinter, but you could pay someone to play any game and complete it if you wanted to

If you insert in real money and gain a benefit, you are partaking in P2W. It's not a difficult matter to define.

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P
Some of those games you listed have pay 2 win elements, WoW isn't one of them.

WoW most definately has severe P2W elements in it through gold buying and skipping leveling. You insert in money and gain a clear benefit.

[kenn9530]

If you insert in real money and gain a benefit, you are partaking in P2W. It's not a difficult matter to define.

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WoW most definately has severe P2W elements in it through gold buying and skipping leveling. You insert in money and gain a clear benefit.

my main point im trying to put across to kyanion is p2w is in pretty much all games to some level but he is having none of it especially when it comes to wow

not saying SC doesnt have it just like all the others just its in most games and at the end of the day people still have fun.

[Kyanion]

WoW most definately has severe P2W elements in it through gold buying and skipping leveling. You insert in money and gain a clear benefit.

We can just agree to disagree on this one, I know that matter gets debated to death endlessly on these forums. But sorry, my gold gives me no 'clear benefit'. It does not give me a direct increase in power, I'd have to buy a run for something if I wanted that.

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If you insert in real money and gain a benefit, you are partaking in P2W. It's not a difficult matter to define.

It isn't difficult to define but he's having issues with it.

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my main point im trying to put across to kyanion is p2w is in pretty much all games to some level but he is having none of it especially when it comes to wow

"pretty much all games" THIS is the problem with what you are saying. You can't use terms like "Every game" and "pretty much all games" because that is bullshit. All games don't have p2w elements in them. Many of them have cosmetic items in their cash shops, not direct lines of power.

[kenn9530]

Pay2win has a very clear definition. If you are buying items from a cash shop that give you a direct increase in power, such as equipment that would normally come from a dungeon or raid, or boosts that give you a measure of power that normal players could not obtain through in game methods (such as a buff that just gives you 20% more damage or something), that is pay 2 win. You are viewing outside influence such as players clearing a raid and selling a mount or items from the run as pay 2 win, it isn't.

Some of those games you listed have pay 2 win elements, WoW isn't one of them.

that is not how p2w works, if you can use real money to benefit your ingame character then thats p2w, your getting access to items that most of the playerbase will never get by using money because they dont have the skill to clear that content the normal way so will never get those items in current content or possibly never get it at all even 2-3 expansions down the line.

[Kyanion]

not saying SC doesnt have it just like all the others just its in most games and at the end of the day people still have fun.

SC has it worse than many games, it HAS real pay 2 win elements. If you are buying a ship on a cash shop on day 1 and another day 1 player just starts the game and his ship is WEAKER than yours.You paid to win. Period.

Handwaving it by 'having fun' is fucking irrelevant and you know it. You can try to justify that pay2win tripe if you want but get ready to be called on it.

[Wilian]

We can just agree to disagree on this one, I know that matter gets debated to death endlessly on these forums. But sorry, my gold gives me no 'clear benefit'. It does not give me a direct increase in power, I'd have to buy a run for something if I wanted thatr

With gold you can buy gear. With gold you can buy boosts, with gold you can buy about everything this game can offer from PvP ranks to Mythic raid clears. And you can buy gold for real money. No matter how you wish to defend P2W practices it is definately a one. So is buying levels.

[Kyanion]

that is not how p2w works, if you can use real money to benefit your ingame character then thats p2w, your getting access to items that most of the playerbase will never get by using money because they dont have the skill to clear that content the normal way so will never get those items in current content or possibly never get it at all even 2-3 expansions down the line.

Let me explain this for the last time before I'm done with this pointless argument that you can't seem to grasp. If you are using real money to buy items from an IN GAME CASH SHOP that it is pay to win.

If you are buying items or dungeon runs or whatever from players that is NOT pay 2 win as it is defined by many players. It is something totally different. In your example you are just using real money and not even gold, so you are doing transactions with players that don't even take place in the game, because you're just paying them via paypal or whatever and then being taken on a run.