How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Leanne]

To the people suggesting 25-man raiders should play that size just because they like it - why can't you continue playing 10-mans because you like it when Blizzard introduces higher ilevel loot in 25-mans? Or are we going on with the double standards?

25-man raiding does need saving in the mid-tier bracket. Because just like there are people preferring 10-mans, there are people preferring 25-mans but will soon have no place to raid in, when only the top 300-400 guilds in the world continue raiding them.

[Deleted]

The best thing I've read so far was Cross-Realm-Raiding. Sounds like a good idea.

[Raelbo]

its easy to just shrug it off as simply, if they preferred it they would simply be doing it,

Why make something more complicated than it needs to be? I think most of the complications in this argument revolve around people trying to justify their denial of the reality of the situation.

that obviously not the case because ppl favour 10 mans for the ease of getting it formed and done, every aspect about the 10 man is streamlined you have less players to worry about,

Well done. You have just pointed out why 25 man raiding sucks. Why force people into running through hoops to participate in an event that requires the same level of skill, effort and commitment to complete?

its common knowledge that you can do 10man, and get the same reward for doing it, there is no need to branch into 25s at any point because there is no incentive to do so..

Hang on. Do you actually prefer 25 man raiding? If so, how can you state there is "no incentive" to do so? If Blizzard simply gave you all the epics you could get out of raiding would you simply quit raiding altogether?

why put yourself through the hassle when you wont get anything out of it.

Uhh, because you actually enjoy raiding in a group of 25 people more than you do in a 10 man group? What possible other reason could there be? What possible other reason should there be?

Come on matey, if you aren't prepared to put in a bit of extra effort (and let's face it, 80+% of 25 man raiders don't even need to do that) then how can you possibly expect someone like me to believe you are sincere about "liking" 25 man raiding more than 10 man?

---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 04:54 PM ----------

To the people suggesting 25-man raiders should play that size just because they like it - why can't you continue playing 10-mans because you like it when Blizzard introduces higher ilevel loot in 25-mans? Or are we going on with the double standards?

Because as things stand, no one is expecting 25 man raiders to settle for inferior rewards and to be considered second rate raiders.

there are people preferring 25-mans but will soon have no place to raid in

Please explain, how, if you have masses of people all really, really wanting to raid 25 man, why any of them should be wanting for a place to raid in?

[Heathy]

then again how do i not know that all 10 man guilds aren't just self entitled lazy know it alls.. because at the end of the day, ppl are dropping 25s for 10s its that simple, they see that the effort isn't being rewarded and simply stop wasting time try to do it.

I did 25s for a long time, and then the lock out changed and it became about as trivial as it could actually get, at which point i pugged and played about 3 hrs/week.

we all do it for the fun, we all deep down want to improve our characters, i always passed loot during my golden age but i did feel the scaling around that made it stand out as its own raid, not just a bigger version of the 10 man. because thats what ppl see it as.

i think having its own tier showed ppl you did 25s, its the same idea that hard modes follow, ppl do hard modes because they get a set colour that shows they do. ofc challenge factors into it a great deal but if hardmodes rewarded the same gear as normal, would ppl do it?

[Raelbo]

The best thing I've read so far was Cross-Realm-Raiding. Sounds like a good idea.

Totally agreed. This would allow minorities who can't find enough fellow raiders on their own realms to be placed in groups without artificially pushing people who would rather be raiding 10 man back into 25 man.

[Deathgoose]

I can't believe this thing is still lumbering on.

The title of the thread implies the thing that makes 25m more difficult and there for more deserving of extra rewards is the logistics of setting up the 25m raid. And, I don't think too many people would argue that it is indeed more difficult to herd 25 cats than 10.

But, the increased burden of logistics are on the raid leaders/officers, not the rank and file. So maybe 2-3 people out of the 25? Why should the other 22-23 window-licking mouth breathers get extra rewards simply for showing up and doing their job the same way as if it were a 10m?

So other than somehow making setting up 25m easier (i.e. make the logistics less of a chore, like Cross-Realm-Raiding and such), there is no reason to reward people for doing 25m. If they are only doing 25m for the extra reward, then they inherently don't want to do 25m more than 10m, and they just want the higher ilvl/mount/etc.

That's why this whole thread's premise is so out of whack that most of the arguments have been whether or not 25m is inherently harder than 10m, which is an entirely different argument.

[Malfecto]

This really isn't a gear incentive issue. This is a social incentive issue.

If you have 25+ people that want to raid, you raid 25 man. You assign responsibilities to leaders, scale the roles, and defeat the encounter.

If you have 25+ people that want to raid and don't want to raid 25 man, its because it is socially more effort. If 10 of those people would rather leave and raid 10 man, it shows there is a social issue in the 25 man group. Not wanting to deal with the "logistics" or the "hassle" simply translates into their being more social overhead in 25 mans. This isn't a factor that deserves reward. This is a simple fact of life that can exist across any strata of raid size. It can translate into 10 man as well, but it isn't a problem that is Blizzard's to solve. You have 25 people that want to raid 25 man or you don't. You recruit to fill 25 man or you don't. It isn't Blizzard's problem to solve your social issues. That's what being part of a group, raid, or guild is about: commonality. You don't force this. If you do, its oppressive.

[Mr Goodkat]

Because as things stand, no one is expecting 25 man raiders to settle for inferior rewards and to be considered second rate raiders.

you dogde the question.


what you actually mean is:

people complaining to be "forced" to do 25 man raids due to better loot is completely valid (because i prefer 10 man raids and despite the fact that i just said that gear is not that important)

poeple complaining to be "forced" to 10 man raids due to various reasons is absolutely invalid, the still can run 25 man raids ( i love my 10 man raid so much and would not want to do 25 man raids again)

the definition of double standard, yeah you prefer 10 man raids and like the current situation, but don't try to pass your personal opinion whether someing is fair or not as fact

[Scathbais]

To the people suggesting 25-man raiders should play that size just because they like it - why can't you continue playing 10-mans because you like it when Blizzard introduces higher ilevel loot in 25-mans? Or are we going on with the double standards?

25-man raiding does need saving in the mid-tier bracket. Because just like there are people preferring 10-mans, there are people preferring 25-mans but will soon have no place to raid in, when only the top 300-400 guilds in the world continue raiding them.

Apples and Oranges. More and higher ilevel loot = easier encounters = faster progression = forced to raid as 25-man. You are introducing an artificial incentive to make people want to raid 25-man instead of 10-man.

Just to make sure I understand your somewhat circular logic: People like playing 25-man raids so they are worth saving. But if people actually liked playing 25-mans, they wouldn't NEED to be saved. They would just thrive without a carrot.

[Grogo]

Let's just go to 15 man raids, call it a day.

[Deleted]

Too bad 5 people isn't a raid, so back to strawman drawing.

You know, they could do other things to make 25 raiding more interesting. But touching iLevel is just plain wrong and will just replace one problem with another.

Too bad that 10 man was not a raid either till blizzard decided it is.
Before that it was an oversized dungeon (10 man scholomance, stratholme)
I can swap to raid with 2 people, so if blizzard says that 2 ppl is a raid it is a god damn raid by they same merit you claim 10 man IS a raid!

Plus your definition of a raid is irrelevant thus ill repeat myself because my argument stands!

"Since people keep bringing this up, i will have to point out the simplistic idea:

1) Make raid content available to 5 mans
2) Share the locks, the loot, the difficulty, the achievements between 5 and 10.
3) See 10 man dying and repeat after me!!!

If people want to raid 10 man, there will be 10 man raids.
If people don't want to raid 10 man, there wont be 10 man raids!
Simple as that,
If they die out, that simply means that nobody cares about 10 man!!!"

Your words not mine :P

[Deathgoose]

To the people suggesting 25-man raiders should play that size just because they like it - why can't you continue playing 10-mans because you like it when Blizzard introduces higher ilevel loot in 25-mans? Or are we going on with the double standards?

25-man raiding does need saving in the mid-tier bracket. Because just like there are people preferring 10-mans, there are people preferring 25-mans but will soon have no place to raid in, when only the top 300-400 guilds in the world continue raiding them.

That doesn't even make sense.

People that felt they had to raid 25m in Wrath to get the best gear did so because it wasn't available in 10m.

If you truly want to make it a double standard issue, you have to completely flip it, and come up with some crazy scenario where "People now feel that they had to raid 10m to get the best gear because it isn't available in 25m."

25m "doesn't need saving". It is not some sacred cow that WoW would wither away without. If 25 people agree they want to raid together, BAM! you got a 25m! Have fun, kill some bosses! BUT, if people have to be bribed to do 25m then it must not be as fun as some people might lead others to believe.

[Heathy]

its funny though that ppl that are happy doing 10 man raids, are fine until they hear mention that 25s could get carrots, if your happy with your size of raid, why do you care what carrots other ppl in other size raids are getting.. that is what baffles me, if it comes down to what your happy doing, and ppl generally are not happy with being rewarded the same, but the ppl on the other end of the stick are happy being rewarded the same.. it makes sense that 10s would be happy getting the same gear as 25s..

ppl should be happy doing the raid size they want to do regardless of the loot, thats fine untill 10 mans start moaning they are no longer happy with their raid size because it no longer offers the best loot, quite fitting how it works both ways. but i thought ppl run the raid size they like not because of the gear... and around and around we go. truth is ppl run the raid that gives them the most epeen and when both raids give equal epeen it then comes down to which one is going to save time and effort. 10 man will eventually become the overwhelming majority.

[Deleted]

I think you missunderstood the 15 ppl part.
It is not suggested to add 15 ppl raids next to the 25, or next to the 10 AND 25, but delete both 10 and 25 and have only 15 ppl raids.

No I understood that. Just that you don't seem to understand what it means to start a raiding guild from scratch with some buddies.
Most wannabe raiding guilds struggle mightily to even get 10 players together, if you raise the requirement to 15 a core group of 5-6 friends is not enough to form a stable team and it would be exponentially harder to raid a unusual time like friday evening for example. I can only guess the effects but it wouldn't suprise me if the change would cut of 50% of the people who want to raid from raiding normal content.

Still in the 15 people the ones that are not in that close group are the majority, and you need to put some efford to make it work, not just get another 3-4 people and "lets raid".

Why? I was once a GM for a 25 man guild and I can't for the life of me understand why people find anything desirable in the tedium of doing dkp snapshots, loot lists and listen to the problems of strangers in the raid who you don't know or care about beyond making up the numbers.
Logging on saying "Lets raid" and it happens with friends is all I ever wanted.

[Kazlehoff]

They allready get rewarded with 2.5x faster legendary creation. they dont need anymore.

[Deleted]

That doesn't even make sense.

People that felt they had to raid 25m in Wrath to get the best gear did so because it wasn't available in 10m.

If you truly want to make it a double standard issue, you have to completely flip it, and come up with some crazy scenario where "People now feel that they had to raid 10m to get the best gear because it isn't available in 25m."

25m "doesn't need saving". It is not some sacred cow that WoW would wither away without. If 25 people agree they want to raid together, BAM! you got a 25m! Have fun, kill some bosses!" BUT, if people have to be bribed to do 25m then it must not be as fun as some people might lead others to believe.

It is a double standard, because if you are not a top guild with the same skill variance you will not be able to get the same stuff killed and as such to claim the same loot as the 10 best in your team.
Because of that 25s splinter so the best can claim the progress and the loot they diserve since now it is available through 10 man.
It has nothing to do with size preferance. They are force to do it, because the others cannot keep up.
As such what it was valid for the 10 man raiders in wrath is also valid for the 25 man raiders in Cata and MoP, unless you raid with Method Blood Legion and Co.

To claim that 10 man raiders were forced to raid 25 in Wrath and now 25 man raiders are not forced to raid 10s is the definition of double standard full of bias created from the inability to see the whole picture due to extreme hapiness that you can get end game loot with less hassle.

[Deathgoose]

its funny though that ppl that are happy doing 10 man raids, are fine until they hear mention that 25s could get carrots, if your happy with your size of raid, why do you care what carrots other ppl in other size raids are getting.. that is what baffles me, if it comes down to what your happy doing, and ppl generally are not happy with being rewarded the same, but the ppl on the other end of the stick are happy being rewarded the same.. it makes sense that 10s would be happy getting the same gear as 25s..

ppl should be happy doing the raid size they want to do regardless of the loot, thats fine untill 10 mans start moaning they are no longer happy with their raid size because it no longer offers the best loot, quite fitting how it works both ways. but i thought ppl run the raid size they like not because of the gear... and around and around we go. truth is ppl run the raid that gives them the most epeen and when both raids give equal epeen it then comes down to which one is going to save time and effort. 10 man will eventually become the overwhelming majority.

Because people want access to the highest level of loot. Don't even pretend you can't understand that. You had do to 25m in Wrath to get the best loot. You didn't have to in Cata, and the 25m had a dramatic drop off. No one forced those 25m raiding guilds to go to 10m. There was no incentive to do 10m, there was just a lack of incentive to do 25m. That pretty much says everything that needs saying.

---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 09:54 AM ----------

It is a double standard, because if you are not a top guild with the same skill variance you will not be able to get the same stuff killed and as such to claim the same loot as the 10 best in your team.
Because of that 25s splinter so the best can claim the progress and the loot they diserve since now it is available through 10 man.
It has nothing to do with size preferance. They are force to do it, because the others cannot keep up.
As such what it was valid for the 10 man raiders in wrath is also valid for the 25 man raiders in Cata and MoP, unless you raid with Method Blood Legion and Co.

To claim that 10 man raiders were forced to raid 25 in Wrath and now 25 man raiders are not forced to raid 10s is the definition of double standard full of bias created from the inability to see the whole picture due to extreme hapiness that you can get end game loot with less hassle.

Wait, so is this about playing the size you prefer, or is about the speed and efficiency that you down things (i.e. the progression race)?

In Wrath= 10m raider were forced to raid 25m to get the highest iLvL loot.
Cata/MoP= 25m are not forced to raid 10m to get the highest iLvL loot.

Not a double standard.

[Maelstrom51]

It is a double standard, because if you are not a top guild with the same skill variance you will not be able to get the same stuff killed and as such to claim the same loot as the 10 best in your team.

So find more raiders as good as your 10 best. You don't see 10 mans complaining that not everyone is as good as their top 4 players, or something.

[Heathy]

Meh you have to remember that with the extra tier share, ppl that were doing 10man, felt the NEED to get the 25man gear when in fact their tier was balanced around their content, the same way the 25man gear was balanced around their content, it was simply the drive to have the best, and thats what it is, why is it considered a bad thing to have 10 man raiders wanting to branch out into 25 mans.

it still comes down to, no 10 man guild is forced to move onto 25mans, they just felt inclined to do so.

[Deleted]

No I understood that. Just that you don't seem to understand what it means to start a raiding guild from scratch with some buddies.
Most wannabe raiding guilds struggle mightily to even get 10 players together, if you raise the requirement to 15 a core group of 5-6 friends is not enough to form a stable team and it would be exponentially harder to raid a unusual time like friday evening for example. I can only guess the effects but it wouldn't suprise me if the change would cut of 50% of the people who want to raid from raiding normal content.

I lead a casual guild that was forced into downsizing during Firelands.
We have survived the karazhan madness since we were not there from the start, we were late for the party and people were just poping in for attunement gear up and went out.
So yes, I know very well what i am talking about.

Raiding is not about accesibility, raiding has to be different than running a dungeon. That is my personal opinion. If that isnt the case we shouldnt have raids and dungeons, just dungeons like GW2.
And no the difficulty by itself is not enough. You can tune a dungeon to be infinately harder than raid, even solo mode.
I will repeat, blizzard should fix the dungeons so people that wanna do stuff with their friends only can do them.
Raid has to be something more, raid has to be inclusive, not exclusive, it has to bring the need to bring people together to do stuff.
It serves a different purpose by definition.

Why? I was once a GM for a 25 man guild and I can't for the life of me understand why people find anything desirable in the tedium of doing dkp snapshots, loot lists and listen to the problems of strangers in the raid who you don't know or care about beyond making up the numbers.
Logging on saying "Lets raid" and it happens with friends is all I ever wanted.

I understand what it takes to GM or raid lead 25s since as i said we downsized.
But the feeling you get when you see a small army jumping down to defeat Nefarian is rewarding enough for people to go through it.

Still i fail to see how, what it takes to run 25 fits with the 15 people raid suggestion.
It is a size in the middle and definately it doesnt need to treat raid leading or guild leading with such a size into a second job to run 15 people raids.