Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Wells]

I can't open an excel document because I don't have excel.

Really not sure what your point is at this point.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I can't open an excel document because I don't have excel.

Really not sure what your point is at this point.

You should be able to download some sort of Excel view program.

[Wells]

Here's what I'm looking at.

403/100,000 violent crime in the US (2010)

UK reports 1,797/100,000 (871,000 absolute) for violent crime, but that's by the UK's definition.

Less than half ok those 871k actually resulted in injury, so we immediately cut down to 401,000 absolute.

The majority of that are things that aren't terribly serious, simple assault, harassment, causing public fear etc etc.

Of the 54,000 sexual offenses in that year only 15,000 were rapes.

That "violent crimes" number isn't starting to look that bad.

The problem is you're trying to treat two wildly different data sets.

---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 06:01 AM ----------

If we're talking about guns, and we are, what really matters here is the homicide rate. And the US has one 4 times as high as the UK. So what seems to be happening is they're trading a lot fewer homicides for a moderate increase in nonlethal violent crime. Which isn't a bad deal really.

[PizzaSHARK]

Then why is the NRA so pissed off about them being banned?

Dont get me wrong, I think the proposed ban and definition of assault weapons is based primarily on cosmetics. But it is a definition, and it does exist.

NRA is pissed off because their lobbyists are paid to be pissed off.

I'm pissed off, because we're wanting to make a law that bans something very vague and ill-defined.

[Bytch]

Tell me they dont want all of our guns again??!?!



---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 03:45 AM ----------

New Chicago regulations on responding to 911 calls.

<snipped meme>

---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 03:49 AM ----------

I'd rather be the victim of a violent crime than a homicide. Don't know about you.

And again, the UK only has more violent crime than the US because they count more crimes as violent.


Not really. No one really thinks a gun ban over a very small area will do much.

Pretty sure no one is saying disarm the police.

So, only the police and Govt need guns?

---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 05:17 AM ----------

These 6 Corporations Control 90% Of The Media In America


http://www.businessinsider.com/these...america-2012-6


Reuters and the AP owned by ONE family.


The House of Rothschild bought Reuters news service in the 1800's. Within the last 30 years, Reuters bought the Associated Press. Now the Elite own the two largest wire services in the world, where most newspapers get their news. The Rothschilds have control of all three U.S. Networks, plus other aspects of the recording and mass media industry.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-1...12hr5736ih.pdf

^^ Which makes it legal for the US Govt to use propaganda against the US citizens.

---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 05:29 AM ----------

Here's what I'm looking at.

403/100,000 violent crime in the US (2010)

UK reports 1,797/100,000 (871,000 absolute) for violent crime, but that's by the UK's definition.

Less than half ok those 871k actually resulted in injury, so we immediately cut down to 401,000 absolute.

The majority of that are things that aren't terribly serious, simple assault, harassment, causing public fear etc etc.

Of the 54,000 sexual offenses in that year only 15,000 were rapes.

That "violent crimes" number isn't starting to look that bad.

The problem is you're trying to treat two wildly different data sets.

---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 06:01 AM ----------

If we're talking about guns, and we are, what really matters here is the homicide rate. And the US has one 4 times as high as the UK. So what seems to be happening is they're trading a lot fewer homicides for a moderate increase in nonlethal violent crime. Which isn't a bad deal really.

In 2012 We had 8600+ gun murders. Of those over 1200 were "justified". either be the police or people defending themselves. We do NOT have 11k or 30k gun murders in the US as some people like to cite. Most murders are done with fists, clubs, hammers..etc.

Infracted: Please refrain from posting meme-like pictures. Furthermore, please refrain from generally posting such huge pictures.

[Sicarus]

I can't open an excel document because I don't have excel.

Really not sure what your point is at this point.

His point is that you're calling out our homicide rate, which mainly has to do with having about over 250 million more people than you do.

And then also pointing out that we have lower, a lot lower, crime than you do, based on the psychological deterrence guns, the legal system, and prison.

---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 09:59 AM ----------

If we're talking about guns, and we are, what really matters here is the homicide rate. And the US has one 4 times as high as the UK. So what seems to be happening is they're trading a lot fewer homicides for a moderate increase in nonlethal violent crime. Which isn't a bad deal really.

The United States is also 5 times more populated, but you never seem to want to point that out?

I'd also like to point out, as I've said so many times, Chicago, New York, New Orleans, and California, have the highest murder rates, and the strictest gun control.

[Grizzly Willy]

His point is that you're calling out our homicide rate, which mainly has to do with having about over 250 million more people than you do.

And then also pointing out that we have lower, a lot lower, crime than you do, based on the psychological deterrence guns, the legal system, and prison.

---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 09:59 AM ----------



The United States is also 5 times more populated, but you never seem to want to point that out?

I'd also like to point out, as I've said so many times, Chicago, New York, New Orleans, and California, have the highest murder rates, and the strictest gun control.

I'm not sure why you assume Wells isn't from the U.S.

[FusedMass]

love how the poll is skewed with numbers from around the world as to opposed to just the U.S., as half the world is banning guns, mainly the eu, while the middle east africa are buying up more guns. (not doing a us vs eu) but if you think about it, those numbers are a lie, as the world has no business in the affairs of the u.s. constitution and bill of rights. O.o is that a fair assessment?

It asks if YOU support an assault weapons ban. Not YOU the Americans. Everyone's point of view is valued and it should not make it void simply living outside the U.S. as far as I'm aware their point of view still holds weight regardless of where they were born. Somehow saying only Americans count because we live here is simply outrageous. But I'm sure that considered skewed in in order to discredit them. Great job with that.

[Deleted]

His point is that you're calling out our homicide rate, which mainly has to do with having about over 250 million more people than you do.

And then also pointing out that we have lower, a lot lower, crime than you do, based on the psychological deterrence guns, the legal system, and prison.

---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 09:59 AM ----------



The United States is also 5 times more populated, but you never seem to want to point that out?

I'd also like to point out, as I've said so many times, Chicago, New York, New Orleans, and California, have the highest murder rates, and the strictest gun control.

Just a quick note regarding your issues with the comparison of figures. The poster you quote rightly pointed holes in the previous argument that violent crime was extremely high in the UK, however the very figures the person he was replying to posted didn't actual support his claim. The comparisons are done on a "per 100k" basis to enable people to see differences, regardless of population size. You are not four times more likely to be murdered in the USA because there are four times as many people. This is basic maths, and I fail to see how people do not understand that is why they do it "per 100k", to bring all figures in line.

The reason for the higher chance of murder in the USA, compared to the UK is not really for this thread as not all murders are commited with guns. The USA does have the highest homicide rates of any western society, along with one of the highest civillian gun ownership figures so correlations will be drawn whether they are correct or not.

[FusedMass]

Sources:

1. "Obama Presses for Gun Measures, Offering Up Minneapolis as a Model," The New York Times, February 4, 2013
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=286995&id=...69-q7P4H9x&t=4

2. "How Many People Have Been Killed by Guns Since Newtown?" Slate, February 6, 2013
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=285995&id=...69-q7P4H9x&t=5

3. "Gun safety advocates petition Rokita," Journal & Courier, January 31, 2013
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=287002&id=...69-q7P4H9x&t=6

4. "Anti-Gun Violence Group Protests at NRA Headquarters in Fairfax," CBS DC, February 1, 2013
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=287036&id=...69-q7P4H9x&t=7

5. "Where 50,000 Guns Recovered in Chicago Came From," The New York Times, January 29, 2013
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=287022&id=...69-q7P4H9x&t=8

Sources for you know people who live in reality and not fantasy. Who are not TOTAL Ignorant but are TOTAL common sense. I'm sure those Gun fanatics would find this information as useful. It's put in easy to understand print so the information does not crush brain of lesser advance beings who can understand it.

[Infracted]

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

It asks if YOU support an assault weapons ban. Not YOU the Americans. Everyone's point of view is valued and it should not make it void simply living outside the U.S. as far as I'm aware their point of view still holds weight regardless of where they were born. Somehow saying only Americans count because we live here is simply outrageous. But I'm sure that considered skewed in in order to discredit them. Great job with that.

Its more or less very different cultures. I wouldn't expect a European to take my opinion on European affairs that seriously, because I don't know a lot that goes on over there, and again, the cultural and ideals are different. I'm sure you're also fully aware many European countries are banning guns, so its more likely many of their citizens would be fine with banning guns, so yes, its flawed.

---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 12:27 PM ----------

Sources:

1. "Obama Presses for Gun Measures, Offering Up Minneapolis as a Model," The New York Times, February 4, 2013
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=286995&id=...69-q7P4H9x&t=4

2. "How Many People Have Been Killed by Guns Since Newtown?" Slate, February 6, 2013
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=285995&id=...69-q7P4H9x&t=5

3. "Gun safety advocates petition Rokita," Journal & Courier, January 31, 2013
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=287002&id=...69-q7P4H9x&t=6

4. "Anti-Gun Violence Group Protests at NRA Headquarters in Fairfax," CBS DC, February 1, 2013
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=287036&id=...69-q7P4H9x&t=7

5. "Where 50,000 Guns Recovered in Chicago Came From," The New York Times, January 29, 2013
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=287022&id=...69-q7P4H9x&t=8

Sources for you know people who live in reality and not fantasy. Who are not TOTAL Ignorant but are TOTAL common sense. I'm sure those Gun fanatics would find this information as useful. It's put in easy to understand print so the information does not crush brain of lesser advance beings who can understand it.

I love how you whine more than anyone else in this thread about insults, but this whole post is filled with them. How hypocritical can you be?

[Grizzly Willy]

If the intent of the poll is to be used as support for gun control, then it would be flawed because this forum isn't an accurate representation of the American public. Whether or not it has international votes would be irrelevant.

If the intent of the poll is to gauge how the forums feel about the topic, then it isn't flawed because it is doing what it is meant to do.

[Deleted]

Its more or less very different cultures. I wouldn't expect a European to take my opinion on European affairs that seriously, because I don't know a lot that goes on over there, and again, the cultural and ideals are different. I'm sure you're also fully aware many European countries are banning guns, so its more likely many of their citizens would be fine with banning guns, so yes, its flawed.

Wrong - Europeon countries (as a rule) have stricter controls on gun ownership, however there are no outright bans on all firearms in the UK, Germany, France, Italy, Sweden, Holland, Switzerland or Spain.

Will people PLEASE stop stating that as fact.

Edit - I do however agree that due to cultural differences, I can understand how our stance on such matters would be trivial to the USA posters. We are just trying to help you guys learn from our mistakes (You guys are like the UK's kid brother, Canada is your goody two-shoes cousin )

[mrwingtipshoes]

If the intent of the poll is to be used as support for gun control, then it would be flawed because this forum isn't an accurate representation of the American public. Whether or not it has international votes would be irrelevant.

If the intent of the poll is to gauge how the forums feel about the topic, then it isn't flawed because it is doing what it is meant to do.

Correct, problem is most people in America do not want people from other cultures, forms of goverment, other parts of the world making choices for them or having any influence on their laws or way of life.

[Tinykong]

Its more or less very different cultures.

The number of statistics being thrown around that completely ignore the gang violence problem in America is alarming.

I gave a quick view of the "deaths since newtown" link for the gun deaths in my area, and found a suicide, an officer involved shooting, a gang drive by, a gang retaliation, the murder of a witness in police protection, a shooting of a robbery suspect by a store owner, and several other gang related shootings.

By no means a comprehensive look, but I'd like to see a breakdown of these statistics to show the real figures on what the ban would be likely to prevent: murders committed by legal gun owners.

[tj119]

I have all the guns and clips I'll ever need and ain't NOBODY going to take them from me.

[PhoenixC13]

I agree that we need a system to get guns to responsible owners try to keep them from criminals but if you going to use pure numbers to call for a ban on guns, you have to ban cars, cigarettes and alcohol first. Also nearly 4000 people a year drown in the US so I am calling for a ban on water too.

[c2dholla619]

guns are not the problem. people have been mass killing other people way back before gun were even thought of. viking would just storm a town killing and raping this is just an example of the many time this happened, thing like this are not new.

[Sicarus]

It asks if YOU support an assault weapons ban. Not YOU the Americans. Everyone's point of view is valued and it should not make it void simply living outside the U.S. as far as I'm aware their point of view still holds weight regardless of where they were born. Somehow saying only Americans count because we live here is simply outrageous. But I'm sure that considered skewed in in order to discredit them. Great job with that.

Well since you're talking about altering AMERICAN gun laws, that only the AMERICAN vote should count.

---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 12:32 PM ----------

Sources:

1. "Obama Presses for Gun Measures, Offering Up Minneapolis as a Model," The New York Times, February 4, 2013
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=286995&id=...69-q7P4H9x&t=4

2. "How Many People Have Been Killed by Guns Since Newtown?" Slate, February 6, 2013
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=285995&id=...69-q7P4H9x&t=5

3. "Gun safety advocates petition Rokita," Journal & Courier, January 31, 2013
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=287002&id=...69-q7P4H9x&t=6

4. "Anti-Gun Violence Group Protests at NRA Headquarters in Fairfax," CBS DC, February 1, 2013
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=287036&id=...69-q7P4H9x&t=7

5. "Where 50,000 Guns Recovered in Chicago Came From," The New York Times, January 29, 2013
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=287022&id=...69-q7P4H9x&t=8

Sources for you know people who live in reality and not fantasy. Who are not TOTAL Ignorant but are TOTAL common sense. I'm sure those Gun fanatics would find this information as useful. It's put in easy to understand print so the information does not crush brain of lesser advance beings who can understand it.

[Infracted]

All of the "sources" you provided are from an incredibly biased site, I cannot take them seriously.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Wrong - Europeon countries (as a rule) have stricter controls on gun ownership, however there are no outright bans on all firearms in the UK, Germany, France, Italy, Sweden, Holland, Switzerland or Spain.

Will people PLEASE stop stating that as fact.

Edit - I do however agree that due to cultural differences, I can understand how our stance on such matters would be trivial to the USA posters. We are just trying to help you guys learn from our mistakes (You guys are like the UK's kid brother, Canada is your goody two-shoes cousin )

I didn't say all firearms for a reason. I have read some are banned at least, and yes higher restrictions.

My point was, I don't expect my opinion on who should be allowed in the European Union to be taken that seriously by Europeans. This thread isn't even about world politics, or world gun bans, this is about a very specific gun ban in the US.