Sandy Hook could have been prevented

[Vyxn]

I'd rather give up some rights then to have innocent children die by people like this. I do not own a gun, and I never plan on buying one. I despise violence in any form, and I do not believe that owning a gun will solve the issues we are having today.....Fighting violence with violence is not a solution.

Since you and others are at the mind set that guns are contributed to violence and it is a factor in violence then we would have shooting are the time at gun stores
Guns do not cause violence it is just a tool that can be used in a violent act

Question when have you ever herd of a gun store getting robbed you don't because even the insane know that there will be people armed in those stores
People do not go into a place where they know people will be armed to commit a crime.

[Kivimetsan]

Finally someone is talking sense!!
I love the part on civil liberties and allowing potential killers to walk the streets. The distinction between that and gun rights is perfect.
Here, have a cookie.

[Sodka]

Since you and others are at the mind set that guns are contributed to violence and it is a factor in violence then we would have shooting are the time at gun stores
Guns do not cause violence it is just a tool that can be used in a violent act

Question when have you ever herd of a gun store getting robbed you don't because even the insane know that there will be people armed in those stores
People do not go into a place where they know people will be armed to commit a crime.

I understand guns are a tool, and that humans are ultimately the reason for acts such as this one. I also agree that we (The US) needs to provide better mental health facilities to try to help individuals who suffer from these disorders. Sorry, but just for me arming countless regular citizens is just a viable solution to fix this. No easy solution for this to be sure but apparently what we are current doing is NOT working.

[ati87]

How realistic is it to figure out who is enough mentally unstable to go on a killing spree?

Chances are low because the US has a population of 300 million.

The true problem with these shootings are the type of weapon these people use and how easy it is to get them online (see the batman killing). You don't need a weapon that can shoot 100 bullets in a few seconds to ''hunt'' or to ''protect''.

[KDSwain]

It is also human to find excuses to let it happen again in order to protect one self from losing their epeen boasting guns.

Tell me the (1)ONE legal thing the monster did last Friday to obtain the firearms used.

[Sodka]

How realistic is it to figure out who is enough mentally unstable to go on a killing spree?

Chances are low because the US has a population of 300 million.

The true problem with these shootings are the type of weapon these people use and how easy it is to get them online (see the batman killing). You don't need a weapon that can shoot 100 bullets in a few seconds to ''hunt'' or to ''protect''.

True - who makes the determination on who is mentally unstable or not? again no easy solution. The shooter was known to be very withdrawn, non-sociable and just never made eye contact with people around him. I was like that when I was younger but, I never once ever thought about using a gun to kill or hurt people. So what red flags does someone need to look at to see if that person is mentally stable or not?

[Vyxn]

I understand why people are against forced treatment of the mentally ill it is a complicated issue and can infringe on some rights but we should at least have a proper evaluation and diagnoses of the mentally ill and people should be warned that there is a possibility that they can become violent

I'm sure if Adam Lanza mother would have been made aware that her son was capable of doing what he did she would have made an effort to prevent him from having access to her fire arms

what is the old saying an once of prevention is worth a pound of cure

[Risale]

Forcing treatment on somebody who is mentally ill is a very slippery slope and be glad that bill didn't pass.
If such a bill passes what and who are next, gays, jews, muslims and yes extreme example but a valid one none the less what is extreme is the step that follows after and that is to eliminate those forced to get treatment and saying that will never happen guess again for it already did in Germany during the 30's and 40's.
The only sollution in my book and I am a European by the way is to get rid of guns period, there is no reason for a 1st world country to have them amongst the general public unless you are a farmer or have dangerous wildlife in your area.
If somebody has say a psychotic break in a gun free enviroment he will only have access to knives or such and lets be honest most adults will go up against a knife wielder as you have a chance and against a gun your just fucked.

So yes Sandy Hook and all the others could have been prevent if the US had removed guns from the general population.

Remember back in the day the boys that drafted the constitution lived in a world were guns were needed 70% of the country was not part of the Union and what was was filled with wild animals and hostile natives, the Brits, French, Spanish breathing down your neck these things are not the way its is now so there is no need for everyone to have a bloody gun it is just dumb period.

[Seranthor]

I'd rather give up some rights then to have innocent children die by people like this. I do not own a gun, and I never plan on buying one. I despise violence in any form, and I do not believe that owning a gun will solve the issues we are having today.....Fighting violence with violence is not a solution.

I have some wonderful ideas to ensure massive amounts of public safety, so.. follow along.

1. Public disclosure of ALL medical records, why? you ask. Because you dont want the mentally incapable to be anywhere near things they could use to harm folks.
2. You now have to have mandatory breathalizers in your car before you are able to turn on the ignition? Refuse and you are banned from driving for life.
3. Any activity that has ever resulted in harm to anyone is now banned, because we dont want folks getting hurt.
4. The internet is now banned because folks use it to stalk each other, to verbally abuse each other and bullies use it to harm their victims.

and Finally,

5. Welcome to your new world, enjoy.

[Vyxn]

I understand guns are a tool, and that humans are ultimately the reason for acts such as this one. I also agree that we (The US) needs to provide better mental health facilities to try to help individuals who suffer from these disorders. Sorry, but just for me arming countless regular citizens is just a viable solution to fix this. No easy solution for this to be sure but apparently what we are current doing is NOT working.

Students get screened all the time for physical diseases at school. students are required to have a physical exam to participate in school sports. so why cant we require students to undertake a mental evaluation to attend school it will help more them just preventing violence and can also be used to determine if some kids are in need of special assistance in learning

[Sodka]

Students get screened all the time for physical diseases at school. students are required to have a physical exam to participate in school sports. so why cant we require students to undertake a mental evaluation to attend school it will help more them just preventing violence and can also be used to determine if some kids are in need of special assistance in learning

Totally 100% with you on this. I know most schools have counselors to help with issues, and I might be wrong here, but I believe I read that the shooter did go to the schools counselor for several issues for his mental state (i.e. being withdrawn, etc..) so not sure how much these school counselors really help out on situation like this?

[Vyxn]

Forcing treatment on somebody who is mentally ill is a very slippery slope and be glad that bill didn't pass.
If such a bill passes what and who are next, gays, jews, muslims and yes extreme example but a valid one none the less what is extreme is the step that follows after and that is to eliminate those forced to get treatment and saying that will never happen guess again for it already did in Germany during the 30's and 40's.
The only sollution in my book and I am a European by the way is to get rid of guns period, there is no reason for a 1st world country to have them amongst the general public unless you are a farmer or have dangerous wildlife in your area.
If somebody has say a psychotic break in a gun free enviroment he will only have access to knives or such and lets be honest most adults will go up against a knife wielder as you have a chance and against a gun your just fucked.

So yes Sandy Hook and all the others could have been prevent if the US had removed guns from the general population.

Remember back in the day the boys that drafted the constitution lived in a world were guns were needed 70% of the country was not part of the Union and what was was filled with wild animals and hostile natives, the Brits, French, Spanish breathing down your neck these things are not the way its is now so there is no need for everyone to have a bloody gun it is just dumb period.

I can tell by your statements you don't know or understand why the founding father wrote the right to bare arms in the constitution it wasn't just for protection against their neighbors or wild beast it was for protection against tyrannical government foreign or domestic it was one of the checks and balance.s an extreme one but a needed one neither less

They understood the only way we earned our independence from England was because we had an armed civilian population

---------- Post added 2012-12-17 at 01:41 PM ----------

Totally 100% with you on this. I know most schools have counselors to help with issues, and I might be wrong here, but I believe I read that the shooter did go to the schools counselor for several issues for his mental state (i.e. being withdrawn, etc..) so not sure how much these school counselors really help out on situation like this?

civil liberty group like the ACLU have tied the hands of school councilors on what they can and cant not do

[ipaq]

Tell me the (1)ONE legal thing the monster did last Friday to obtain the firearms used.

You seem to not be informed enough to participate into this discussion.

[Sunseeker]

I understand why people are against forced treatment of the mentally ill it is a complicated issue and can infringe on some rights but we should at least have a proper evaluation and diagnoses of the mentally ill and people should be warned that there is a possibility that they can become violent.

Anyone can become violent. Even people with no diagnosed mental illnesses. Plenty of "mentally ill" people have never become violent.

I'm sure if Adam Lanza mother would have been made aware that her son was capable of doing what he did she would have made an effort to prevent him from having access to her fire arms

And what if there was no indication at all? What if Adam Lanza's psych report said that he was just as normal as any other kid his age? That at best, he could stand to have a few more friends?

what is the old saying an once of prevention is worth a pound of cure

Context is everything. This line of thought works in medicine, but it doesn't apply well when you start talking about rights and freedoms. Carried to it's logical conclusion, we could come up with a lot of nasty things under the argument of "prevention".

Students get screened all the time for physical diseases at school. students are required to have a physical exam to participate in school sports. so why cant we require students to undertake a mental evaluation to attend school it will help more them just preventing violence and can also be used to determine if some kids are in need of special assistance in learning

Why students? Because we impose on their freedom so much already it's okay to go further? Because they can't vote and can't organize politically we might as well just do to them what we want? So we can determine who all the violent or stupid kids are and put them in special rooms and put special marks on their foreheads so everyone will know they're "special" and need to be treated "special"? They can have their "special" cars which can only drive "special" speeds and they can have their "special" rights so we can have their Special Overseers always keeping an eye on them.

Totally 100% with you on this. I know most schools have counselors to help with issues, and I might be wrong here, but I believe I read that the shooter did go to the schools counselor for several issues for his mental state (i.e. being withdrawn, etc..) so not sure how much these school counselors really help out on situation like this?

Councilors are not therapists, and few of them have any actual mental health training. What's worse is that school "councilors" are not bound by the same privacy laws that therapists and psychologists are, so if your kid says some funny things, that person is free to tell everyone they want to about it. Even if you explicitly ask them to keep it private they are under no obligation do so. Councilors don't help because they don't know how, and because people don't trust them, with good reason.

[Wikiy]

OT: It couldn't have been prevented by the method you mention because Lanza wasn't mentally ill. He had Asperger's syndrome and was a heavy introvert. I have both Asperger's syndrome and am a heavy introvert as well, i just try to socialize more than he apparently did, even though i often don't like it.

[Vyxn]

Why students? Because we impose on their freedom so much already it's okay to go further? Because they can't vote and can't organize politically we might as well just do to them what we want? So we can determine who all the violent or stupid kids are and put them in special rooms and put special marks on their foreheads so everyone will know they're "special" and need to be treated "special"? They can have their "special" cars which can only drive "special" speeds and they can have their "special" rights so we can have their Special Overseers always keeping an eye on them.
.

because that is when the symptoms of mental illness starts to show is when you are a kid, and if caught early enough just like any other disease it has a higher success rate of being treated, and a person with a mental illness can live a normal life. Or should we wait for the mentally ill perform an act of violence before we decide that person needs help most of the time it is to late they have done killed others and sometimes their self

Why are you so against the possibility of infringing on a person civil rights to prevent a tragedy but do not hesitate to infringe on another right for the same reason

[Sunseeker]

because that is when the symptoms of mental illness starts to show is when you are a kid, and if caught early enough just like any other disease it has a higher success rate of being treated, and a person with a mental illness can live a normal life. Or should we wait for the mentally ill perform an act of violence before we decide that person needs help most of the time it is to late they have done killed others and sometimes their self

The mentally ill are not some form of killers in waiting. Not to mention that while the body is developing it goes through all sorts of physical and hormonal changes which can have all sorts of effects on a young mind. You can't start running around saying that Jimmy is depressed or schizophrenic or bi-polar when Jimmy hasn't even been taught how to express his feelings properly, much less how to understand the rules of society or is just a damned kid trying to be a damned kid!

Why are you so against the possibility of infringing on a person civil rights to prevent a tragedy but do not hesitate to infringe on another right for the same reason

I have no idea what you're saying here.

The only thing I'm in favor of is something with actual scientific backing, not knee-jerk idiotic reactions that scapegoat people who are "different". This argument would get laughed out of the room if you replaced "mentally ill" with "black".

[Vyxn]

OT: It couldn't have been prevented by the method you mention because Lanza wasn't mentally ill. He had Asperger's syndrome and was a heavy introvert. I have both Asperger's syndrome and am a heavy introvert as well, i just try to socialize more than he apparently did, even though i often don't like it.

you a parsing words. technically you are right it is not a metal diseses but a mental disorder
but it is a disorder that can be treated through therapy

[Ethes]

First off the bat, you can't force treatment on somebody as that is a violation of human rights. You can't lock them up, you can't feed them medicine and if your treatment consists of having conversations with the patient, he/she can simply refuse to talk.

If people do receive help, informing 3rd parties (whether it's the police, parents or something else) is a strong violation of the individual rights of that person unless somebody clearly poses a threat to themselve or others in which case this is for the greater good.

As for people who're saying, let's just screen everybody and make a list. First of all, you don't want that as you'll end up with things like selective insurance and all other kinds of bad things. Secondly, it is not the governments job to do this. If a parent notices something odd with their child, they should take action. Thirdly, I don't doubt it is relatively easy to 'cheat' such a screening into having a 'clean' repututation, so all in all it seems like quite a useless idea.

I think responsibility lies with parents and citizens as the parents are the ones who have great influence on their children, should notice odd behavoir (granted the assumption that they spend some time with their children) and are generally responsible for their children. As for American citizens, they're the ones who keep on carrying the tools for tragedies like these, keep on protecting their ancient rights and yet when somebody does start shooting up a school, there is nobody who is carrying these 'rights' to stop them.

In order to do something about situations like these I would try to improve mental heathcare where possible while making sure people their rights aren't violated (as in, distributing personal information, forcing them medicine or locking them up). I would inform parents about possible mental illnesses, make sure there is a good information structure about it and teach them to be responsible parents in general.

On the other hand I would regulate guns. The right to bear arms is from centuries ago and made sense back then, however it doesn't make sense today in a modern, first world country. If this so-called 'right to protect yourself' is actually working, I would be interested in stories that read "Heroic citizen saves school from mass murder" or "Citizen prevents rape" or "Citizen detains bank robbers". It's actually likely that they're out there, but the real question that should be asked is would that have been nessecairy if the gun laws were different.

As for personal safety, I would encourage everybody to read this blog, as the sources he uses are pretty decent. Generally seen, people think they need a gun to protect themselves because other people all carrying weapons as well. In their term, criminals think they'll need bigger and heavier weapons. Well, you can see where that is going! Which brings us back to the issue of guns being easily accessable for everybody and anyone.

If you would remove most guns from public society (I'd would leave guns around for hunting purposes) and create safety regulations, psychological tests, increased responsibility for your weapons (if your kid goes Rambo with it, you should be partially responsible), etc. In order to obtain a hunting weapon, rules similar to those in Japan make sense:

To get a gun in Japan, first, you have to attend an all-day class and pass a written test, which are held only once per month. You also must take and pass a shooting range class. Then, head over to a hospital for a mental test and drug test (Japan is unusual in that potential gun owners must affirmatively prove their mental fitness), which you'll file with the police. Finally, pass a rigorous background check for any criminal record or association with criminal or extremist groups, and you will be the proud new owner of your shotgun or air rifle. Just don't forget to provide police with documentation on the specific location of the gun in your home, as well as the ammo, both of which must be locked and stored separately. And remember to have the police inspect the gun once per year and to re-take the class and exam every three years.

Source

If you read the whole article, you'll find out Japan has one of the lowest amount of gun deaths in the world.

So, TL;DR:

- Improve mental healthcare
- Increase parent responsibility
- Inform parents about mental illness
- Remove the majority of weapons from the general public
- Increase weapon ownership's responsibility
- Do all this without violating human rights

[Deepsidedj]

Yes, only if they wouldn't have removed God from schools.


/jk