5.2 Shaman changes

[Sarevokcz]

Agree with this, for me at least I dont think its fair to compare healers through numbers purely as every healing spec has its strong points wither its strong CDs or utility its very different from DPS. Resto Shamans imo is one of the strongest if the not the strongest healer specs currently because they bring so much to a raid especually on progression fights.

like? SLT and two output CDs? Guess what, everyone has some utility and output CDs. Stormlash? Disco and MW do extra damage by design, druid has dps CD, mindbender for priests does shitload of damage. manatide? tell that to 10mans where its extra benefit for 1 person most of the time and 2 for a few bosses, while those people have to make up for the healing shaman cant put out.

Seriously, people need to stop acting like resto brings so much utility over others that it balances its lower output, even on progression where our mastery should shine more than others.

[Devious009]

like? SLT and two output CDs? Guess what, everyone has some utility and output CDs. Stormlash? Disco and MW do extra damage by design, druid has dps CD, mindbender for priests does shitload of damage. manatide? tell that to 10mans where its extra benefit for 1 person most of the time and 2 for a few bosses, while those people have to make up for the healing shaman cant put out.

Seriously, people need to stop acting like resto brings so much utility over others that it balances its lower output, even on progression where our mastery should shine more than others.

SLT is unique and a very strong CD, Stormlash's contribution to the raid is much more than Disco and MW combined, Druid's CD is just that, a CD which most of the time doesnt get used cuz the druid cant afford to (maybe once or twice at best through out an entire fight and even then the dps contribution is meh), Fire elemental does a good amount of damage for resto too just like mind bender does for priests, Mana tide for 10 mans is not a huge contribution but its the best mana regen for healers in 25, resto shamans can carry their own weight and like I said earlier comparing healers based on healing numbers alone is not fair really.

Dunno why you are mad when some people dont agree with you just because they look at things differently than you, to me at least like I said in my earlier post Healing is not just pure numbers.

[Recom]

Not to mention Rshams shine at healing while moving (along monks and Druid with symbiosis).

Numbers mean nothing on their own, you have to look at the whole picture. Our basic output is slightly lower than other healers because 1) we're still better at healing when packed (even though we do ok at healing spread out people unlike in Cata) 2) Pal's and Disc's absorption are a direct hit to our mastery, I personally hate healing along a disc.

Rsham can also bring some nice damage through personal DPS and Stormlash, doing ~40k DPS on a fight like Gara'jal definitely helps.

If anything I think our regen is too low compared to other healers but 1) my gear isn't 100% optimized, I only run with 8k spirit so things might be different with 12k and 2) resurgence will get progressively better with better gear.

[Astraios]

like? SLT and two output CDs? Guess what, everyone has some utility and output CDs. Stormlash? Disco and MW do extra damage by design, druid has dps CD, mindbender for priests does shitload of damage. manatide? tell that to 10mans where its extra benefit for 1 person most of the time and 2 for a few bosses, while those people have to make up for the healing shaman cant put out.

Seriously, people need to stop acting like resto brings so much utility over others that it balances its lower output, even on progression where our mastery should shine more than others.

Not sure if you're just bad or what, because the rshams I raid with consistently beat everyone except myself (MW monk) and our disc priests, and they're useful on virtually every kind of fight. I think they're worth a lot more because their output is close to ours (in terms of HPS(e)), while a lot of their output is in their CD's, thats more of a bonus than a negative, in my opinion, because the only time you need high HPS is when fit hits the shan, and having many strong CD's to handle that, is amazing. Especially in 25s.
Someone earlier cited raidbots, except raidbots puts rshams as below disc and holy paladins, and above everyone else. Disc is currently way, way out of line, and I'm also of the opinion that holy paladins are too strong for their utility and tank healing capabilities (470 ilvl pulling 80k hps in 10m? sounds balanced to me). But, basically, rsham's are on top of throughput healers, and below the utility healers...so they're the best of the not-overpowered-as-hell healers. I'd say that puts them in a pretty good spot, not even considering the utility of a large portion of their throughput being in CD's. With EM being on a 1min CD in 5.2, getting to use it for every HTT/Ascendance is going to put it on a whole new level (on average level of current haste rshams take, that is a 40% boost to HTT healing and at least a 20% boost to ascendance) of throughput CD class. And let's be honest here, the only time raid throughput matters is whenever the raid is low (people wont die at other times), and rsham mastery makes rsham throughput in those moments very good, and their CD's being so strong + their mastery just => insanity. This is why rsham's are very well ranked during progression, and tend to fall behind during farm.

[Maurypovich]

...rsham's are very well ranked during progression, and tend to fall behind during farm.

I agree with a lot of what you said. When everyone's getting slammed, all the throughput cds work great. As a boss gets put more and more on farm, the rsham won't be as "super" as the others since our mastery gets negated a little by people taking less damage. I think they're in a pretty decent spot because as soon as 5.2 hits we'll have more progression again with other healers ooming as well and all that good junk that makes them shine.

On the topic of the whole Conductivity thing: I think as long as it's tied to healing rain that it's going to just be garbage. I can't throw out numbers because I'm a baddie at that, but what if it was no longer tied to healing rain and had a scaling based on which spec. For ele maybe make it like a smite heal at perhaps 40% of the lb hit or something For enhance make it either tuned higher with lb since they cast fewer or maybe make it act like seal of insight does (in a way) only do something party-wide similar to the old healing stream totem. For resto I suppose since they're lightning bolts are weaker, make it 75% or so of their lightning bolt damage.

This should definitely bring it in line with the other 2 cds in that tier and offer a different healing style change for resto to maybe take. I do say "maybe" because it could be on a fight by fight basis say on fights where you don't need a healing tide. Bottom line though is if it's always tied to healing rain, it's just not going to be any good with the 10 second duration and the cast time of both healing rain and lb.

Maybe i'm just spewing garbage too since it's late, but it just sounds like an interesting path to take for all 3 specs if it worked that way.

[thebdc]

Dunno about that, obviously it's not supposed to be competitive with actually healing yourself but for a HoT that you can maintain indefinitely WHILE doing DPS it's not bad. What does a shad priest's Renew tick for? That costs them a GCD at least.

Come to think of it, I wonder if the HoT stacks if you maintain FS on multiple targets.[COLOR="red"]

I just tried it out a bit on PTR. You don't actually get a HoT on yourself, but each time your FS does damage you heal yourself with a spell named "Flames of Life" (which, interestingly, is a holy spell and not nature). So the more FS you have up, the more you heal yourself. The healing is not increased by Restoration's Purification (maybe it only increases nature healing?). The heal itself doesn't seem to be able to crit (even after having FS up on 4 dummies for several minutes), but since the heal is directly related to the FS tick damage, the heal is increased if a FS tick crits.

[Kralljin]

(which, interestingly, is a holy spell and not nature)

The Healing of Healing Stream used to be a Shadow Spell, idk if they changed this.

[Dundebuns]

Interesting that the heal is holy. potential developer oversight. Also, I wouldn't expect the heal to ever crit, otherwise the heal would be getting double benefit from crit (once from FS, once from the heal).

[mjolnrik]

Not sure if you're just bad or what, because the rshams I raid with consistently beat everyone except myself (MW monk) and our disc priests, and they're useful on virtually every kind of fight. I think they're worth a lot more because their output is close to ours (in terms of HPS(e)), while a lot of their output is in their CD's, thats more of a bonus than a negative, in my opinion, because the only time you need high HPS is when fit hits the shan, and having many strong CD's to handle that, is amazing. Especially in 25s.
Someone earlier cited raidbots, except raidbots puts rshams as below disc and holy paladins, and above everyone else. Disc is currently way, way out of line, and I'm also of the opinion that holy paladins are too strong for their utility and tank healing capabilities (470 ilvl pulling 80k hps in 10m? sounds balanced to me). But, basically, rsham's are on top of throughput healers, and below the utility healers...so they're the best of the not-overpowered-as-hell healers. I'd say that puts them in a pretty good spot, not even considering the utility of a large portion of their throughput being in CD's. With EM being on a 1min CD in 5.2, getting to use it for every HTT/Ascendance is going to put it on a whole new level (on average level of current haste rshams take, that is a 40% boost to HTT healing and at least a 20% boost to ascendance) of throughput CD class. And let's be honest here, the only time raid throughput matters is whenever the raid is low (people wont die at other times), and rsham mastery makes rsham throughput in those moments very good, and their CD's being so strong + their mastery just => insanity. This is why rsham's are very well ranked during progression, and tend to fall behind during farm.

Yea i agree, resto shaman perform very well. Also Disc priests and pallys are obviously going to get stronger the longer the tier goes on for, absorbs account for so much healing and on progress fights they will completely dominate. Our healing is there for wen its needed the most and we excel at that, and have some very nice cdowns for when its needed

[sarasun]

Not to mention Rshams shine at healing while moving (along monks and Druid with symbiosis).

Wait, what? We're good during SWG, sure, but after that, our healing while moving is horrible. IDK where you're taking that from.

Also, i said shamans were one of the worst healers, not that they weren't viable. They certainly are viable, just not optimal.

And, about the stormlash argument, doesn't it account for like 1% of a raid's DPS total? (10m, would be less in 25m) Doesn't seem that huge to me.

[Deleted]

SLT is unique and a very strong CD,

SLT is a weak 10% damage reduction cd with very big disadvantages like low range.

It's a weak CD.

And SLT is just a little utility. Having two hands of protection might save the boss kill, having everyone shielded by disci shields makes them live through some of the hardest attacks.

MTT is a useful utiliy, thougih itz only works in 25m.

For 10,, resto shaman is just very very bad. For 25m, he has bad output with a utility bonus, which makes it worth to some point.

[Sarevokcz]

Resto good at movement healing? performing well? Stop looking at anecdotal evidence from your raid and just look at the damn raidbots.

[Devious009]

SLT is a weak 10% damage reduction cd with very big disadvantages like low range.

It's a weak CD.

And SLT is just a little utility. Having two hands of protection might save the boss kill, having everyone shielded by disci shields makes them live through some of the hardest attacks.

MTT is a useful utiliy, thougih itz only works in 25m.

For 10,, resto shaman is just very very bad. For 25m, he has bad output with a utility bonus, which makes it worth to some point.

SLT's uniqness isnt in the 10% damage reduction, its the ability to keep everyone's HP at the same level, couple that with our mastery and ancestral vigor and you have pretty strong healing + utility. the range is not an issue SLT is a strong CD that many raid leaders welcome in their raid.

Why are you comparing apples and oranges ? seriously if you want shields and HoPs you're playing the wrong class.

[Dkenusc]

If you haven't been posting on the forums, kindly don't make claims about what people have been saying.

I've been consistently saying that Elemental's damage was low and in need of a buff since shortly after we had the data to make those kinds of calls. You're trying to pull my comments regarding Elemental DPS in 4.2-4.3 in, which is bollocks, since that was an entirely different context with entirely different damage numbers, where Elemental wasn't lagging as badly as we are today.

Stop trying to provoke a reaction out of people by taking their comments out of context and being rude and condescending in your own comments. That's not just me; you've pulled that behaviour on pretty much everyone else in the thread as well.

He's not trying to provoke a reaction, you actually did say Elemental was fine and it was quite annoying as we were at the bottom of dps.

[Slappyjoe]

Resto good at movement healing? performing well? Stop looking at anecdotal evidence from your raid and just look at the damn raidbots.

Yes, let's all ignore real world healer performance and focus solely on numbers generated from combat logs. Obviously the logs are what's important here, right??

[rogas]

Shamanistic Rage and astral shift ... they gonna stack?

[Recom]

Wait, what? We're good during SWG, sure, but after that, our healing while moving is horrible. IDK where you're taking that from.

I don't know, from playing the game ?

HST, HTT, SWG, Riptide spam with the glyph and even more if you pop ascendance are all huge for movement healing on fights like Ta'yak or Lei'shi.

And, about the stormlash argument, doesn't it account for like 1% of a raid's DPS total? (10m, would be less in 25m) Doesn't seem that huge to me.

We're talking about progression where kills usually are seconds from enrage so yeah Stormlash is a big deal.

[demoncleaner]

Resto good at movement healing? performing well? Stop looking at anecdotal evidence from your raid and just look at the damn raidbots.

Raid bots has never been as good of an indicator for performance for healing as it is for dps. Pure numbers simply don't show resto in its fullest light. Plus like its been said, resto falls behind later in the tier because of its mastery.

[sarasun]

Yes, let's all ignore real world healer performance and focus solely on numbers generated from combat logs. Obviously the logs are what's important here, right??

Except logs are taken from "real world" performances.

[Dkenusc]

EM can't go live like that.

They are too afraid to buff resto shamans. Neverthe less, that tier seems totally broken in it's current ptr state.

For a resto/ele, you would have the choice between:
- bursty 30% haste for 20 sec every minute, averaging 10% haste + bonus damage by syncing it with ascendance and so on.
- 5 % haste + instant cast every 1.5 min
- 6% extra procc on some spells

It's no question that everyone will pick up EM. The only ones considering not taking EM are enhancers for AOE because their EOTE increases AOE damage by 30%, while EM pretty much has very minor effects on AOE. On Single target fights, EM is by far better than EotE.

This is why Elemental will always be bad cuz when blizzard buffs them, they actually complain and demand it not to go live...wtf? You people realize even with EM buff we are still incredibly bad?