Blizzards 25 man mistake.

[Dvaldin]

I don't see how giving 25-man raiders a 'rare chance' as opposed to a very rare chance is supposed to get more people to run in 25-man mode.

Then again, I don't know how much of the WoW community outside of HC's is really concerned about having the BiS piece. It's nice and all, but ... meh.

[Seriss]

You can give 25-man all the incentives that you want, but they won't be of any use if there's nobody who wants to lead that raid - or is capable enough to lead that raid and be successful at it.

When we're discussing 25-man raiding, it's all about the leader.

[Gilian]

I'f you're running Sha on those specs at 10 FPS there is something incredibly wrong with your computer. Also get a smaller screen: Bigger=need higher res= lag.

I had the same issue, I think, with a brand new PC. I had major lag on Sha of Anger and Elegon last phase (unplayable like lag).
I removed Recount and started using Skada and now I have no lag at all or barely any lag.

He might have the same issue but I doubt he will read this.

[Deleted]

do you know why people do not join your guild? question to everyone. does anybody knows why some regular player is not joining a 25man guild and prefers a 10man guild if the player is looking for a new guild? (except technical reasons)

I dont think there is any reasoning like that going on at all.

A 25man guild simply needs more people to apply to them in the same timeframe ... which again brings us to the problems of logistics and meta gaming.

[Deleted]

A better solution to 25 man woes would probably be the addition of an organizational toolset ingame.

Making the calender and event administration somewhat more usable and adding an (easy and fast to use) interface to their website to update ones status for upcoming raids would already go a long way. Maybe add an app for all those who cannot communicate without their phone anymore.

Loot incentive for 25s shouldn't be actual gear bonuses but consumables. Something like every boss dropping a few flasks and a feast in 25s.

[yjmark]

A better solution to 25 man woes would probably be the addition of an organizational toolset ingame.

Making the calender and event administration somewhat more usable and adding an (easy and fast to use) interface to their website to update ones status for upcoming raids would already go a long way. Maybe add an app for all those who cannot communicate without their phone anymore.

Loot incentive for 25s shouldn't be actual gear bonuses but consumables. Something like every boss dropping a few flasks and a feast in 25s.

That won't work. Despite what the OP said, loot really is the only incentive for people to do just about anything in this game. The whole reason 25s are "dying" is because there is no loot difference between 25 and 10 man raids. That was literally the only change Blizz made, and whoosh.....25s started dying.

By having 25-mans drop higher level loot, 10-mans will die (i.e. what happened before Blizz normalized loot).

So Blizz is trying to find a middle meeting ground. The obvious control knob is loot.

[Gilian]

That won't work. Despite what the OP said, loot really is the only incentive for people to do just about anything in this game. The whole reason 25s are "dying" is because there is no loot difference between 25 and 10 man raids. That was literally the only change Blizz made, and whoosh.....25s started dying.

By having 25-mans drop higher level loot, 10-mans will die (i.e. what happened before Blizz normalized loot).

So Blizz is trying to find a middle meeting ground. The obvious control knob is loot.

And in the meanwhile they are annoying people and we all know there is no middle meeting ground.

[valliant13]

There's people who feel pressured to do 10-man raiding while they do not enjoy it over 25-man raiding because they don't have much of a choice because of so many realms being dead.

Anyways, you know what would possibly help 25-man raiding the most? Cheaper transfers.

Definitely agree on the cheaper transfers...and this is coming from someone whos transfer list isnt huge but isnt tiny. I can't invest in any guilds anymore due to it. I get there then realize I'm stuck on my main and can't enjoy my other alts. They should lower the cost and increase the cooldown back to a month. It could fix some things in the community as well.

---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 03:15 PM ----------

Only issue I see with this is that those five extra players will have to come from somewhere - going to cause a lot of 10-man disbands and drama as guilds try to take players from another guild to make up their numbers. There aren't enough 25-mans needing to axe 10 players to provide five new members for the 10-man guilds.

Still, could be an interesting way to go once the drama settled down.

I agree 100%. The raids would be 100% balanced on difficulty for everyone. None of this 10 is easier cause of this or 25 is hard cause of this. One normalized format of raiding in terms of size.

[yjmark]

And in the meanwhile they are annoying people and we all know there is no middle meeting ground.

qft. Of course, people will always be annoyed, no matter what. Just like there is no middle ground. At least they are trying.

For me, the interesting part of this whole thing was how much people really don't care about raid size. They only care about which gets them loot they want with the easiest path. The playerbase adapts to wherever the loot is. And no matter what, people will complain.

[valliant13]

Only issue I see with this is that those five extra players will have to come from somewhere - going to cause a lot of 10-man disbands and drama as guilds try to take players from another guild to make up their numbers. There aren't enough 25-mans needing to axe 10 players to provide five new members for the 10-man guilds.

Still, could be an interesting way to go once the drama settled down.

Don't 10 mans have 12-13 people for the raiding roster anyways in case someone cant make it? SO realistically you recruit 3-5 more people which really isn't terrible. Just ask your casuals if theyd be interested until you find people.

---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 03:28 PM ----------

THAT whould be biggest mistake, this is MMO - MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER - where it should be lot of people not freaking 10 OMG_SUPERPOWER_UBERGEARED people that like kill ,for example, Deathwing(a huge dragon that just shattered whole world with wing flapping) this is fucking absurd, this is broking the lore, and broke epic feeling of online game, the bigger raid size the more fun it is
(I could say same about arena vs battleground, there are more epic feelings on battlefield neither then in freaking cage)

Did you QQ when raids went from forty to twenty five man this bad? Cause 40s were terrible. I think in this current form of shared lockouts 25s are terrible and it's my personal preferred format of raiding. So I will go to 10 man raiding and just deal with it. Is it less epic...sure DO I care? not really progress IS progress at the end of the day.

[jax]

We remember differently.

Of course we do, I hated 10 mans cause I saw it was going to destroy 25s and it has... we will remember it different because were on opposite sides of the debate.

I didn't create any threads then but posted regularly in a lot of them. An I recall them being a lot of garbage complaints just like the QQotM stuffs now on the official forums. Most of them non constructive.

Of course you do, I remember the people that didnt agree with my point as just QQing and non constructive also... getting the point yet? Lol you remember based on your bias, same as everyone in the world. It doesnt make it true however...

That is pure revisionist history

.

Nah its actual history... proven by your own statement below:

Sure you had a few threads,

See what you did there... you said no one demanded it then you said there were threads about it...

but I never remembered them ever being taken seriously or gaining any momentum.

See my above posts on mind set... of course you dont remember them being taken seriously...
Of course the fact that Ilevel, lockouts, and gear all got changed to what those "few threads" were all demanding kind of kills your theory that it was a "few" and didnt gain "any momentum" lol

The biggest complaint about the WotLK raiding situation was from 25s feeling burnt out by "having" to raid both lockouts each each week to "keep up" with the competition. 10s knew they had the easier content and knew why they had lesser gear. But the overwhelming voice back then were the 25s complaining about having to raid too much.

If the above has any validity at all then where is the "overwhelming voice" now? People are "forced" to raid LFR to "keep up" in the same exact way they were "forced" to do 10s... and 10s were so easy back then they are on the same level as lfr now...

Blizzard listened to them and fixed it.

From your point of view yes...

From many others, they didnt fix anything, they infact broke 25 mans and they have all but died.
This discussion is about how to fix that EXACT mistake by getting people to want to run 25s... those same 25 mans that they ruined by merging ilevel, lockouts, achievs, and mounts...

If it is not... then why is the discussion even being had???

ROFL... logic is hard!

[Deleted]

I'm not sure what thunderforged does to save 25mans. If thunderforged had the same droprate in 10 and 25man I think people would be upset anyway as it would be expected for the droprate to be higher in 25mans.

So if this was blizzards solution to 25man raiding it is a bad one and I don't think it is going to change a thing.

[niil945]

25's are dieing because people don't want to do 25's. And they do care what the raid size is. 10's are a more intimate setting with a smaller pool of people. It's not logistics, at least not for me. And that's coming from someone who ran most raids I participated in since release. It's that out of every 25 (or 40) man raiding guild I've been in the vast majority of them are not people I consider friends, at best they're acquaintances, though I always had a pool of 6-10 that I actually liked hanging out with. And there's usually several I absolutely hated if not more. 10's are an option now with equal gear, which means I can raid with people I like to raid with...all of them. It's not a matter of logistics unless people choose to micromanage every single facet of their guild (omg perfect class composition and dkp and handholding people through resolving drama!). And then there's the fact that in every 40 man guild it was entirely possible (and relatively common) for a core of 15-20 to carry the rest. In 25's it's better but individual contributions are overshadowed by the whole, and it is entirely possible (and common in my raiding experience) to carry several folks who weren't that hot. In 10's individual contribution is very apparent. That impact matters to me. It's not logistics. It's loot equality. It's the social dynamic of smaller guilds. I don't see the need to go back to 25's ever. I did 40 man because it was the only choice. The same reason I did 25's before they actually equalized loot.

[fangless]

Basically, teleport back to BC when there were no such arguments.

[Deleted]

Basically, teleport back to BC when there were no such arguments.

Yes, lets go back to 2% of the playerbase seeing the current endgame raid. In fact, I have no idea why blizard doesn't still make people run karazhan. it was good enough for a few years, why not trap people in there forever?

[fangless]

Yes, lets go back to 2% of the playerbase seeing the current endgame raid. In fact, I have no idea why blizard doesn't still make people run karazhan. it was good enough for a few years, why not trap people in there forever?

Right, I forgot we have to give everything away.

Where is my mind at?!

[Absintheminded]

If you raided kara on your main for 2 years because you had to, you were doing it wrong.

[Raelbo]

That won't work. Despite what the OP said, loot really is the only incentive for people to do just about anything in this game. The whole reason 25s are "dying" is because there is no loot difference between 25 and 10 man raids. That was literally the only change Blizz made, and whoosh.....25s started dying.

You have the logic upside down and inside out.

The reason 25s are dying has nothing to do with loot. It is about all the other aspects of 25 man raiding that most people don't care for. Yes, during WotLK people did raid for the loot (and other rewards like mounts, achievements, titles etc). What Blizzard simply did was removed that as a reason for choosing a raid format.

By having 25-mans drop higher level loot, 10-mans will die (i.e. what happened before Blizz normalized loot).

When the difference in reward between the two formats becomes sufficiently different, yes, it will have a major impact on what people choose to do.

So Blizz is trying to find a middle meeting ground. The obvious control knob is loot.

Yes, I am sure Blizzard could control the ratio of 10 v 25 man raids by simply changing the loot. But doing so does a lot more than just change what raid format people are choosing to run. Which makes it a bad choice of control knob.

That being said, I don't think that the proposed addition of Thuderforged Loot will do too much harm. The only question is: will it do enough good?


Ultimately if the fundamental problem is that most people simply don't like 25 mans (primarily because of the hassle factor) then I am afraid there isn't all that much that Blizzard can do to "save" 25 mans without serious negative side effects. The only silver lining to this is that if this is indeed the case, then 25 man raiding won't be missed by many...

[Vintersol]

Best solution for me is: Merge raidformats to 15 Player Raids. No more asking about advantages / disadvantages between formats, only one format to balance, better experience (less players as in 25, more than in 10), fits best with class options (11 classes, 33 specs).

[Layuth]

I am just gonna keep praying for them to make one raid size. 15 mans - for all 3 types: LFR, Normals and HCs. Would simplify things a lot. Maybie next expansion?

This IS the answer.