No new 5-player dungeons in 5.4

[Fagatronics]

World of warcraft isn't a ferrari

I think Blizzard's income would say different.

If nobody cares what I do in the game then I should be able to get as much gear as I want in as little time as I want. I don't care if you do or if you don't. It makes no difference to me.

And you can... You could be raiding right now in fact. But if you want lots of great gear for little effort, that's not what this game is about. WoW may not be for you. But if you insist, there are tons of private servers where you can obtain/buy gear with much less effort.

Most adults work full time and have other responsibilities that preclude them from grinding out in this game. Children have all the time in the universe though.

Ha. It ultimately depends on your priorities. If WoW takes up too much time away from work and/or family, that's a decision you have to make. The game is the game and it will always be here when you get more time. Delay gratification.

It's not like getting a Ferrari.
It's like joining a business six months after someone else and then whine because he got a raise while you have to wait for another month.

Most adults would be happy that they get the raise after only one month instead of six, like the other employee.
But you will always have little kids who scream it's unfair.

Maybe my analogy may not work for this specific instance but I stand by the idea that earning gear via heroic raiding is more satisfying than via lfr.

[MasterHamster]

It takes one month to long. Again why would I want to sub to a game where I have to spend the first month of that sub JUST ON PURE CATCHING UP DOING THINGS I DON'T LIKE TO DO JUST SO I CAN BEGIN THE PROCESS OF GRINDING AGAIN?

Because that's what keeps players playing.
If I wanted a game where content is only relevant the first time I'd play a singleplayer game.

It isn't terrible design and you haven't given a reason for it being terrible other than invalidating previous content. Invalidating previous content should mean NOTHING to you since you likely already cleared it anyway and got your fill out of it. Again the potential for me to do any act in this game is meaningless to you because your not a child you have self control and you can hold yourself back. Not only can I not have the same toys, I cannot have them at the same time you can because that drove you people mental and the developers just had to cater to you. If I could have them at the same time that would mean instant catch up and it would mean that the previous tier was "invalidated" which is really only a concept that exists in the perceptions of a small minority of you people and the developers who've listened your arguments.

I don't think you can be convinced because you actually found enjoyment in 4.3 far longer than it seemed like the typical player did.
I'm happy for you though, in Cata you had your wish where dungeon rewards were meant to help you catch up as fast as the VP cap could. And with the total of 7 runs to do so, the average player needed about 3 hours in total to cap for a WEEK.

And over a million left.

Now, as said, I don't need to worry because your ideas aren't going to return to the game. As I mentioned earlier, Blizzard will keep speeding up the catch up, but never to the degree of Cata tier skip clusterfuck that left most players doing the same 3 dungeons and one LFR a week.
If you think it's that painful to progress your character, in an MMORPG, you need to find another genre. You seek instant satisfaction, something that aren't healthy for a genre that relies on keeping players busy for long periods of time.

PS:

The Future of Valor

The second change I want to mention is that we plan to adjust the role of Valor points. Valor (or the various other names that the currency has had over the years) was originally added to WoW for two reasons: it helped to mitigate really bad luck, for those times when the boss just refused to drop the item you wanted, and it helped encourage players to stay with the group even if they didn't need anything off the next boss.

Over time, we have felt like Valor has taken on too prominent a role, to the point that it risks becoming more important than actual boss loot. This is particularly the case when the tier sets are available on the Valor vendors. We think killing dragons and ransacking their hoard is more epic than shopping at the magic armor store, so we want to shift back toward boss kills being the primary source of epic PvE gear.

finishing with

One of the pieces of feedback we heard loud and clear from Cataclysm is "I'm done raiding for the week and want to play WoW, but there is nothing to do."

Couldn't possibly be because of how fast they made catch-ups and rep acquisition

edit: damn the blizzquotes sure fucks up a lot

[Leonard McCoy]

During patch 5.2 you WILL have the 5.2-loot.
You just won't have them in the first week of 5.2 when you ding 90 right before it.

Understand it now?

I will have it after you have it. Which in turn is still means that you can have your shiny toy and lord over for me about a month. I don't see why you should have that at all. Or why you should really care.

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 11:25 PM ----------

I think Blizzard's income would say different.



And you can... You could be raiding right now in fact. But if you want lots of great gear for little effort, that's not what this game is about. WoW may not be for you. But if you insist, there are tons of private servers where you can obtain/buy gear with much less effort.



Ha. It ultimately depends on your priorities. If WoW takes up too much time away from work and/or family, that's a decision you have to make. The game is the game and it will always be here when you get more time. Delay gratification.



Maybe my analogy may not work for this specific instance but I stand by the idea that earning gear via heroic raiding is more satisfying than via lfr.

Oh were talking income now? I wonder what declining subs looks like. Maybe by next expansion you'll be comparing it to a pinto? I could not be raiding right now because I can't commit to this game like that anymore. I want lots of great gear and little effort and if this game is no longer willing to provide with me the rewarding experience that I can expect to get out my limited and irregular play then it lost this sub and will continue to lose more and more.

[MasterHamster]

I will have it after you have it. Which in turn is still means that you can have your shiny toy and lord over for me about a month. I don't see why you should have that at all. Or why you should really care.

Wow, you're still on about some idea that Kangodo is talking about how he doesn't want you to have the gear he has?
In case you haven't figured it out, he's talking about keeping progression relevant, not blocking you from ever getting it.

[Leonard McCoy]

Because that's what keeps players playing.
If I wanted a game where content is only relevant the first time I'd play a singleplayer game.



I don't think you can be convinced because you actually found enjoyment in 4.3 far longer than it seemed like the typical player did.
I'm happy for you though, in Cata you had your wish where dungeon rewards were meant to help you catch up as fast as the VP cap could. And with the total of 7 runs to do so, the average player needed about 3 hours in total to cap for a WEEK.

And over a million left.

Now, as said, I don't need to worry because your ideas aren't going to return to the game. As I mentioned earlier, Blizzard will keep speeding up the catch up, but never to the degree of Cata tier skip clusterfuck that left most players doing the same 3 dungeons and one LFR a week.
If you think it's that painful to progress your character, in an MMORPG, you need to find another genre. You seek instant satisfaction, something that aren't healthy for a genre that relies on keeping players busy for long periods of time.

PS:

The Future of Valor

The second change I want to mention is that we plan to adjust the role of Valor points. Valor (or the various other names that the currency has had over the years) was originally added to WoW for two reasons: it helped to mitigate really bad luck, for those times when the boss just refused to drop the item you wanted, and it helped encourage players to stay with the group even if they didn't need anything off the next boss.

Over time, we have felt like Valor has taken on too prominent a role, to the point that it risks becoming more important than actual boss loot. This is particularly the case when the tier sets are available on the Valor vendors. We think killing dragons and ransacking their hoard is more epic than shopping at the magic armor store, so we want to shift back toward boss kills being the primary source of epic PvE gear.

finishing with

One of the pieces of feedback we heard loud and clear from Cataclysm is "I'm done raiding for the week and want to play WoW, but there is nothing to do."

Couldn't possibly be because of how fast they made catch-ups and rep acquisition

edit: damn the blizzquotes sure fucks up a lot

They could provide you with lots to do but frankly it's really irrelevant. Without gear behind it you wouldn't do it and apparently controlling yourself and choosing to go slow is not something you people understand.

What keeps players playing is reward. If you give them to much stick and not enough carrot they leave. They are leaving in mists but even the continued decline in sub numbers won't do anything to convince you of that. We are not even half way into mists and we've had 400k leave. By the end of this expansions cycle we will have WELL OVER A MILLION LEFT and as much as you'd like to continue blaming cataclysm the game hasn't stopped bleeding subs.

You really do need to worry because if enough players do leave we'll see instant catch up soon enough. LIke I said I'll bookmark this for the next expansion. Blizzard knows where it's bread is buttered and it isn't buttered by catering to the crying minority.

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 11:29 PM ----------

Wow, you're still on about some idea that Kangodo is talking about how he doesn't want you to have the gear he has?
In case you haven't figured it out, he's talking about keeping progression relevant, not blocking you from ever getting it.

Answer a very simple question. Or fill in the blank rather.

"Invalidating" previous tiers is a bad thing because...

Either of you can answer that btw.

[MasterHamster]

Uuugh, I remember that period.
I finished LFR on my main and I was bored.
So I started with alts \o/
Three alts, leveled in no time, geared within a week and within another month they were well-equiped from LFR because I had to skip every other content.
It was freaking boring!

Same here, freaking horrible. Think I had 5 or 6 85s decked in valor stuff and LFR shit.
Firelands? Pfft! Only transmog pugs ever returned there. Such a waste.
And 4.2 doing the same to t11 almost instantly *sigh*

[Leonard McCoy]

Uuugh, I remember that period.
I finished LFR on my main and I was bored.
So I started with alts \o/
Three alts, leveled in no time, geared within a week and within another month they were well-equiped from LFR because I had to skip every other content.
It was freaking boring!

And In mists I am freaking bored to tiers. I won't be geared in a month. It takes FAR TO LONG AND IS FAR TO UNREWARDING. Not to mention the fact that their is a stunning lack of innovation in the game. Mists is the worst trash they released. They've sunk tio a new low and bored me to tears in the process.

[MasterHamster]

They could provide you with lots to do but frankly it's really irrelevant. Without gear behind it you wouldn't do it and apparently controlling yourself and choosing to go slow is not something you people understand.

What keeps players playing is reward. If you give them to much stick and not enough carrot they leave. They are leaving in mists but even the continued decline in sub numbers won't do anything to convince you of that. We are not even half way into mists and we've had 400k leave. By the end of this expansions cycle we will have WELL OVER A MILLION LEFT and as much as you'd like to continue blaming cataclysm the game hasn't stopped bleeding subs.

You really do need to worry because if enough players do leave we'll see instant catch up soon enough. LIke I said I'll bookmark this for the next expansion. Blizzard knows where it's bread is buttered and it isn't buttered by catering to the crying minority.

Uh no, I wouldn't do dailies without the gear. Some people do.
And yet I did them because I felt rewarded when I unlocked them and replaced some shitty rare I had sitting around forever.
Progress.

Yeah, players keeps playing for reward. Something you want to throw out en masse, without any content to keep players interested.
I'll feel rewarded when my alt reaches 480 so I can start getting 502.
I felt rewarded when I hit 470.
And I felt rewarded when I hit 460.

Progress. But you think I should get i500 from dungeons. How fun, wouldn't last long though. Guess I'd just unsub until the next patch then.
So far we've lost 400k. Big woop. As I said earlier, but apparently didn't stick, is that MoP had a surge of returners, not new players. I'd be quite surprised if they stayed.
Sure wasn't because Blizzard weren't throwing out HoF level epics from easy dungeons.

You can keep telling yourself that, but yet AGAIN, Blizzard learned from Cata that instant catchups bore people out. What do bored people do when they no longer feel that they are being rewarded...?

Answer a very simple question. Or fill in the blank rather.

"Invalidating" previous tiers is a bad thing because...

Either of you can answer that btw.

Invalidating previous tiers is a bad thing because it's part of the progression (yup, I'll keep using that word). A new 90, in your dream, would hit 5.2, no need to progress, never seeing 5.0 raids, just get drowned in near top level gear. Unless he starts raiding, he'd lose interest. Sub lost.
Just because you refuse to acknowledge that a player without goals in a RPG will get bored quickly.

Luckily Blizzard did.

And In mists I am freaking bored to tiers. I won't be geared in a month. It takes FAR TO LONG AND IS FAR TO UNREWARDING. Not to mention the fact that their is a stunning lack of innovation in the game. Mists is the worst trash they released. They've sunk tio a new low and bored me to tears in the process.

Since you think the very first stepping stone in a 90s gear progress should reward you everything you need to instantly raid the new tier, I'm not surprised.
Play something else. MoP isn't your cup of tea. It's not Queueclysm and it never will be.

[Jtbrig7390]

And In mists I am freaking bored to tiers. I won't be geared in a month. It takes FAR TO LONG AND IS FAR TO UNREWARDING. Not to mention the fact that their is a stunning lack of innovation in the game. Mists is the worst trash they released. They've sunk tio a new low and bored me to tears in the process.

simple fix to all of this is something I have requested since MOP started.

Give me 2-3 lockouts of LFR a week at lease the RNG then wouldn't bore me to the point that I would want to kill someone.

They want to stop doing 5man's fine whatever open up LFR and let me do it more then once a week and give me a fucken wing when the patch release's.

[Maoli]

My own issue with Mists is that VP gain is locked to 1k each week. I really think it should be locked based on progression throughout a patch.

ie: each week you are able to obtain 1k more VP. if you didn't obtain all your VP from previous weeks you can obtain that as well at any time. when a new patch comes out it resets back to just 1k you can earn the first week.

by doing this you could start running an alt 3 weeks into the patch and be able to earn 3k right off the bat to gear up. or if you have to take time off wow for work/life and you miss out on VP in previous weeks you can make up for it.


I don't really care for them to make more 5mans. I'd actually like to have new zones with unlockable dailies and solo scenarios.
i love this patch so far.

[Creatinebrah]

I'm looking to play again but I'm not understanding this whole issue. Is it that people are hitting 90 and getting to current raids (ToT?) too fast? Or is it that people are hitting 90 and it's taking them a longer time than needed to do said raids? Is it because people are pigeon-holed into doing dailies to gear up?

[Krayzz]

Are people complaining to complain or are new five mans really that big of a deal? LFR fills the role of getting gear.

[Seefer]

BC heroics also dropped an epic on the last boss every time just like Wrath. So only Vanilla which didnt have heroics and Cata didnt drop guaranteed epics.

Last boss, and there were also lockouts, now look at Crapaclysm..............run the new heroics til you are fully gears til you are blue in the face and be geared in a day...............big difference.

[Leonard McCoy]

Uh no, I wouldn't do dailies without the gear. Some people do.
And yet I did them because I felt rewarded when I unlocked them and replaced some shitty rare I had sitting around forever.
Progress.

Yeah, players keeps playing for reward. Something you want to throw out en masse, without any content to keep players interested.
I'll feel rewarded when my alt reaches 480 so I can start getting 502.
I felt rewarded when I hit 470.
And I felt rewarded when I hit 460.

Progress. But you think I should get i500 from dungeons. How fun, wouldn't last long though. Guess I'd just unsub until the next patch then.
So far we've lost 400k. Big woop. As I said earlier, but apparently didn't stick, is that MoP had a surge of returners, not new players. I'd be quite surprised if they stayed.
Sure wasn't because Blizzard weren't throwing out HoF level epics from easy dungeons.

You can keep telling yourself that, but yet AGAIN, Blizzard learned from Cata that instant catchups bore people out. What do bored people do when they no longer feel that they are being rewarded...?





Invalidating previous tiers is a bad thing because it's part of the progression (yup, I'll keep using that word). A new 90, in your dream, would hit 5.2, no need to progress, never seeing 5.0 raids, just get drowned in near top level gear. Unless he starts raiding, he'd lose interest. Sub lost.
Just because you refuse to acknowledge that a player without goals in a RPG will get bored quickly.

Luckily Blizzard did.

They would only need to progress in dungeons and then in the new raid yes. Progress wouldn't be "invalidated" it just wouldn't be a forced grind through old content. It would only involve you progressing through the new raid, not the old content which is old. He is more likely to lose interest when he isn't getting enough reward and he isn't getting the current reward when the content is released. Just because you refuse to acknowledge that a player without reward will leave the game in an rpg.

Luckily Blizzard bleeds subs and continues to do so.

[Jtbrig7390]

Invalidating previous tiers is a bad thing because it's part of the progression (yup, I'll keep using that word). A new 90, in your dream, would hit 5.2, no need to progress, never seeing 5.0 raids, just get drowned in near top level gear. Unless he starts raiding, he'd lose interest. Sub lost.
Just because you refuse to acknowledge that a player without goals in a RPG will get bored quickly.

Luckily Blizzard did.

Then you should be forced to do the raids at 60/70/80/85 before you can level past that number. sorry but if blizzard wanted to make past content last longer they waited way to long to do it and now its only going to hurt them.

Don't get me wrong I always said old raids should always be apart of progression but that is something that dose not work for wow. it has not worked for wow since wotlk.

There is a reason wotlk had the most high sub count in wow history and will forever hold this title.

They had a chance to keep old raids current a long time ago and failed at it. forcing it on players now is stupid and in the end will cost them money.


You can't play half a game of basketball then turn around and say its football and force them rules on the players.

and that is what blizzard has done.

[Leonard McCoy]

Then you should be forced to do the raids at 60/70/80/85 before you can level past that number. sorry but if blizzard wanted to make past content last longer they waited way to long to do it and now its only going to hurt them.

Don't get me wrong I always said old raids would always be apart of progression but that is something that dose not work for wow. it has not worked for wow since wotlk.

There is a reason wotlk had the most high sub count in wow history and will forever hold this title.

They had a chance to keep old raids current a long time ago and failed at it. forcing it on players now is stupid and in the end will cost them money.

I hope it bleeds them dry.

[Fagatronics]

Oh were talking income now? I wonder what declining subs looks like. Maybe by next expansion you'll be comparing it to a pinto?

Not likely, but maybe. Blizz still makes an insane amount of money because of WoW and in the short term foreseeable future, no other mmo looks to overtake them. Even if they do keep shooting themselves in the foot.

I could not be raiding right now because I can't commit to this game like that anymore. I want lots of great gear and little effort and if this game is no longer willing to provide with me the rewarding experience that I can expect to get out my limited and irregular play then it lost this sub and will continue to lose more and more.

Not trying to sound like an asshole, but ya maybe unsubbing would be best. If you don't have time for the game and don't enjoy playing it when you do have time, it doesn't sound like a worthwhile hobby. Considering the newest patch just dropped too, Blizz is not likely going to change their design for a while either. And, ultimately, Blizzard generally only understands if you hit em where it hurts (the dick? NO, the wallet!)

I don't agree with all of Blizz's design decisions and unsub whenever I realize the fun is gone. That has been happening more and more frequently over the recent years too.

[Jtbrig7390]

I hope it bleeds them dry.

added a little more to that post I know you would agree with it

You can't play half a game of basketball then turn around and say its football and force them rules on the players.

and that is what blizzard has done

[Leonard McCoy]

Not likely, but maybe. Blizz still makes an insane amount of money because of WoW and in the short term foreseeable future, no other mmo looks to overtake them. Even if they do keep shooting themselves in the foot.



Not trying to sound like an asshole, but ya maybe unsubbing would be best. If you don't have time for the game and don't enjoy playing it when you do have time, it doesn't sound like a worthwhile hobby. Considering the newest patch just dropped too, Blizz is not likely going to change their design for a while either. And, ultimately, Blizzard generally only understands if you hit em where it hurts (the dick? NO, the wallet!)

I don't agree with all of Blizz's design decisions and unsub whenever I realize the fun is gone. That has been happening more and more frequently over the recent years too.

It's only an unworthy hobby because of foolish decisions on the part of the developers. I guess after this month is done I'll wait till the next expansion where they can admit how wrong they were and what they learned from mists and we can hash out this argument all over again.

[MasterHamster]

Then you should be forced to do the raids at 60/70/80/85 before you can level past that number. sorry but if blizzard wanted to make past content last longer they waited way to long to do it and now its only going to hurt them.

Riiight...
Let's keep the argument in the current expansion, yes?

There is a reason wotlk had the most high sub count in wow history and will forever hold this title.

The fact that WoW was still attracting way more brand new players than people leaving?
Unavoidable. Would happen even if WotLK was the current expansion.

I hope it bleeds them dry.

Yes, maybe then they can make an expansion without raids, only dungeons, and you get the best gear when you enter.
Then after doing all the dungeons you get to decide whether you want to keep playing even though you aren't being rewarded.