Make raid for casual and do it right!

[gamingmuscle]

If it was not clear the first time:

1) I want forming group to be the only way to do dungeons.
2) I want LFR/LFD to be removed.
3) I want difficult of raid for both hardcore and casual to be like it was in TBH and Vanilla(UBRS Strath Scholo LBRS)

So you want simpler raids and longer waits for everyone?

I'm sorry, but your vision sounds a lot less interesting.

[LairenyX]

No facts to support this claim, this is entirely your opinion.
My OPINION of forming my own groups was one of great annoyance back in vanilla, yes you are right there was a feeling when everything went right that the group you formed accomplished killing general drakki, or finishing off that 2 hour long scholo run however it was equally as annoying when that group that took an hour to form and eventually arrive at said dungeon (remember no flying mounts) then collapsed because 2 or 3 people suddenly had to leave and so began the journey back to Ironforge to look for more replacements only to have to find even more replacements for those who left while waiting for you to find replacements (see where I am going here). Oh btw this was also BEFORE summoning stones so without a warlock it was even more painful.

Yes yes, going back to how we're 2 chemist... also going back to wiping on a boss is equivalent to a group forming and failing. If wipe on boss are anooyed you like a group breaking a part annoy you then merely simply have game designer design near "no wipe" policy. This will work like remove forming group RIGHTT? that is simply not true. No wipe policy makes me want to quit the game like LFR/LFD made me quit this game.

Going back again to how we're all alike. 99.99% and 00.001% explanation earlier. We're two chemist if I feel it then you feel it... but I have recognize that your feelings are always fighting so your urge to defend blizzard might be greater than your urge to agree with me. I'm seriously, we're ALL the same when it come to this game.

I insist the reason wow grew was because it was the first mmo to be 'noob' friendly, it opened the door for all of those players who had never played D&D,Everquest etc to show them what an mmo what was all about, no other mmo had done it on the scale that blizzard did it at that time, and yes this is my opinion, just like it was yours.

You merely made a statement that "this game is easy" and "Everquest was hard" so? I made a statement saying how WoW used to be in a state that was fun and exciting. You made a statement regarding "you thought this was hard EQ was MUCH harder" but it doesn't help much.

As it is just the state of the game right now as to why many people play world of warcraft today.

No that's not true, wow grew with Vanilla and BC BY A VAST margin. IT went from liek 0 to 100 when from BC to WoTLK is an addition of 10, making it 110. It was the state of the game during Vanilla and BC that forged excitement, hope, and dream that one day the the game will go FORWARD with those design that keep people on.

The only way I'll let what you say convince me is via number. If wow leak to less than 5 sub in the next five year while mainting MoP game design then I am right. If WoW get to 15 mil or beyond 9 mil in the next five year then you are right. You cant give credit to MoP for the amount of plaayer if Vanilla and TBC caused that.

There are not many games that can still play and look as good as wow does after 8 years since launch, and not only still going but going very strongly. There are many current players who believe Mists of Pandaria is a very good expansion with a lot of new 'quality' content, just because you do not feel the current xpac does the game justice does in no way mean its true.

I have read many of your previous posts in this thread and almost everyone simply just gives me an opinion of you as someone that is living too much in the past still, what you want is simply not possible. You want everything, you do not realise how much quality is in the game these days and how much that quality costs to maintain, things like building raids AND dungeons alongside to house the more casual player would simply take too much development time and maintenance time, these are things you overlook when coming up with these sort of idea's, as do many others.

tldr I appreciate you have your views on how you wish this game would play these days but you need to remember that you are and always will be a minority, regardless if you believe the game would be better 'your' way, there will always be others who disagree with you, and to add I am one of those people.

The number is being maintained---for now; but we'll never know how good now is until a few years from now when the game design of now is kept. I am confidence that it will go down; hence proving that NOW is bad... because the game increased with Vanilla and TBC. I didn't have the quit mentality then I have it now. I have the everyone, wow players, are the same view and I have explained it already. If I hate it then so does everyone else, even when they don't admit. THey can hate it but admit they like it to show support and being a blizzard defender. You saying you love it is like you saying you find babies not cute despite the fact that you do. People can believe what they want but what htey feel is different, and they feel they hate this game... simply because I do and we're all the same in this context.

Again with the past/nostalgia/tinted glass. As I have said, this is not true. What is true is "the state of the game" argument. It was good in the past, it sucks now, and I see some leaking in sub to back me up + massive amount of complaint. I know how much quality is in the game and I dont reeally care how much it cost to maintain LOL. Why don't you tell me what allows a person to judge quality in a game such as WoW? I want to see if you're using the same tool to judge quality as I. If it's too expensive then design for the same crow, both crowd want the same thing. Removal of LFR/LFD, forming roup manually, and harder content both at a casual and hardcore leval. I am not the majority, I speak for everyone, we all want the same thing, it's not my vision it's everyone's interest fo the game to be this way. I am a majority and I represent you to. Even if you disagree with me to agree with blizzard, somehow you agree with me deep down inside... and eummm if they decide to go forward with the expansion after mop with Vanilla/TBC design, you'll agree with it too.

[gamingmuscle]

Hmmmm...

It is not right currently because LFR give me 2 dilemmas:

1)Why should I do normal/heroic content if I can experience the setting of the raid in LFR?
2)Why should I do LFR to experience content if it only drop fake gear?

Personal motivation...I have zero interest in doing LFR. I know it's there I know I can easily complete it....but I more often than not don't do it. I would rather do normals and heroics.

The thing you say about "ruins your game experience if you allow it to" is an example of spontaneous logic that people WANT to work in a fantasy simply because it sounds "logical". What happens in reality is different.

Huh? You are presented with a choice you can do LFR or Normal (eventually HM) or Both. The reasons that lead a person down a specific path will vary a great deal. But it is always a choice.

Lots of text

Bottom line is people enjoy different things. The majority of WoWs community did not enjoy manually pugging everything from dungeons to raids. The manual work/time investment was not rewarding for them. Clearly you love it, I was on the did not side.

[pld]

I just have a problem with this saying people keep pulling up: "everyone is different".

Like it irritates me to NOOO end. This is how I view the issue:

1) The amount in which people are the same: 99.99%
2) The amount in which people are different: 00.01%

The thing that make people different are like insignificant and irrelevant. Like for an example, your face shape is slightly more different than mine. You might be a borned athlete. I might be a borned chemist... but you have to keep context in mind.

How are two chemist similar? they find chemistry SUPPERRR exciting.
How are two athlete similar? they find excercising fun.

Two chemist or two athletes are like two WoW players.

The two WoW players are in the same context, like the two chemist.

When are we the same? 100% of us find babies adorable. 100% of us find sugar sweet tasting. 100% of us like sound arranged in correct pattern and expressed by the right medium (instrument). We all like music in every genre. We 100% like our own odor. We 100% like giant robots, aircraft carrier, alien planets, and spaceship in the exact same amount...

We're different, and the factor that make us different give each of us a different flavor so we're not bored... but we're the same in the way we like and the way we are.

So if I like forming groups and things that are less accessible but acessible and a little more challenging; then everyone likes it too.

Everyone likes having stuff that are available but not quiet accessible immediately and easily. Everyone doesn't like seeing stuff right away or just merely doing like LFR or LFD.

It's about what EVERYONE like not what BLIZZARD like. If everyone like having thing a little less accessible and they preffer working toward it, Blizzard better catter to them. Blizzard can't just say we're gonna make thing more accessible cause that's what we like. It's about what people feel not how blizzard feel.

TL;DR: Everyone likes WoW the same way, sorry!

...That's how it was able to get to 8-10 million ish during Vanilla and TBC; had MoP or Cata came first, WoW number will be significantly lower, I assure you.

I don't think it's fair to say "Everyone likes WoW the same way, sorry!". Just using my guild as a small sample size, we have 4 different types of players. We have people who PvE and raid, people who dislike PvE and only enjoy PvP, people who do both (and usually prefer one over the other), and people who play and do whatever they feel like when they have time (casual).

I don't see why using the argument that "everyone is different" is an issue. You said that the things that make people different are insignificant and irrelevant. I don't agree with this. The fact that I don't agree with you here is evidence that differences ARE significant. Also, I would like to point out that many Blizzard employees are also WoW players who enjoy the game. If they continue to ruin the game with the sole intent of making money for Blizzard, they end up doing two things: ruining a game they enjoy playing AND alienating subs which would put their own jobs in jeopardy. Looking at the game purely as a business, it only makes sense for Blizzard to please their subs and cater to the vast majority. The moment they ruin that, Blizzard loses one of their biggest cash cows. There's no incentive for Blizzard to ruin WoW.

It is also true that Blizzard's subs have slipped from 12 million at their peak in WoTLK to their current estimate of around 10 million. I wouldn't necessarily attribute all those lost subs directly to Blizzard. There certainly have been people who stopped playing because of issues with the game such as LFR/LFG/etc, but I would argue that a larger population have just moved on. As people have stated, the game is nearly 8 years old. Many of the people that I know who no longer play this game weren't upset about new features but just decided it was time to move on. Other priorities came up, there were other games they enjoyed playing more, people found new hobbies, etc. As a fanbase grows, it's inevitable that people move on. The fact that Blizzard has been able to replenish those people for this long is actually pretty indicative that the game is in a decent place.

Granted, a lot of the points above are also opinion, but it's good to consider both sides.

[Dvaldin]

Separating 10 and 25-man would have a negative affect on guilds, as it did back in vanilla and TBC. It creates 'feeder' guilds which gear a player who then moves on to another guild making it to where said guild is never able to progress on toward 25-mans because they cannot retain players long enough until all the raid members get geared up. It's not a good model for any but the top 10 or so guilds per server.

I'm not a huge fan of LFR and LFD (and CRZ also) because they have somewhat removed that sense of server camaraderie. However, I have high hopes that at least as couple of Blizzard folks have understood this, as the new Thunder Isle patch has moved back in the other direction. It's refreshing to see general chat posts that such-and-such rare is up and people looking for groups to use the three gems to summon bosses and complete quests. Hoping that sort of thing continues as the game moves forward.

Also do not like LFR for, as you said, it makes raiding content not as rewarding when you can defeat an instance that easily and have virtually seen it all before entering normal ... and it also diminishes the playerbase for normal and heroic raiding as there are many people who simply just want to see the content and aren't as concerned about gearing their toon up.

But I've learned to live with it. It took some work on my part to find the right place and group of people to truly enjoy raiding again. And the bosses, at least some of them, are tough enough for my particular skill level even in normal mode to make it enjoyable again. So, I guess I've found a place where I'm okay that Joe Shmoe who does 20k dps can see the content.

The impetus is on the player to find a way to make the game fun, and that's how it should be. Taken further, you can even make the game enjoyable for someone else with a little thought, effort and kindness.

[Dubalicious]

LairenyX you are too far out of touch with ACTUAL reality (as you put it) to really carry on a productive conversation.

You're typing a lot, but basically saying nothing. You keep saying "in reality" like you have some insight into what "reality" is while the rest of us are clueless - it's very off putting and, again, leads to this situation where you are TYPING a lot and SAYING very little, other than fallacies and what you have determined to be "reality" which is actually just your opinion. I know it's your opinion because you have failed to provide any substantive evidence other than your own personal retort and further use of this "in reality" phrase.

If you want people to believe what you're typing you're going to have to support it with more than "in reality".

[Otimus]

It's not a matter of opinio, but a matter of fact, that when things had to be manually grouped, very few people did it. LFD, LFR, and the expulsion of group quests didn't happen merely for convenience. It's because most people weren't doing that content. I don't know what you're getting at, dude, saying there's some sort of excitement factor or something. Maybe for you. Most everyone else flat out didn't do it :x

Having sever community, and all that is all well and good in theory. Not so much when so few people actively participated in it.

[LairenyX]

LairenyX you are too far out of touch with ACTUAL reality (as you put it) to really carry on a productive conversation.

You're typing a lot, but basically saying nothing. You keep saying "in reality" like you have some insight into what "reality" is while the rest of us are clueless - it's very off putting and, again, leads to this situation where you are TYPING a lot and SAYING very little, other than fallacies and what you have determined to be "reality" which is actually just your opinion. I know it's your opinion because you have failed to provide any substantive evidence other than your own personal retort and further use of this "in reality" phrase.

If you want people to believe what you're typing you're going to have to support it with more than "in reality".

Why don't I just define reality for you okay (for the context of WoW)?

1) In the same context, everyone is the same.

Defining context:

1) The same 1 thing that more than 1 person does and like.

I hope it is clearer to you now, thank you. Judge what a majority of players like about WoW (WoW itself is too general of a context): PvE.

Since PVE is "the same 1 thing that more than 1 person does and like"... you need to judge in what state it was that people liked it.

People liked it when it was in a state of forming group, overcoming the failure and disband, and triumphing and succeeding because the overall experience is fun and exciting this way.

When it was in a state of merely DOING, then it is boring.

Everyone likes the same thing in reality, defined already in this context for reality.

We, people in the context of liking PvE only and liking PvE and PvP, all find forming group and doing afterward FUN.

We all hate doing only. Merely doing is NOT fun.

NOBODY find merely doing and skipping group forming fun. If they say otherwise, they either belong to a different context and want to have a conversation. I suspect they are HIGHLY neutral and decide to defend blizzard.

It would be ideal for me to have all the people from the same context discussing this without other people from different context like neutral or PvP lover or the likes coming in to contaminate the conversation... simply because you're not from the same context... reality definition no longer hold... etc etc.[COLOR="red"]

---------- Post added 2013-03-15 at 09:22 PM ----------

So you want simpler raids and longer waits for everyone?

I'm sorry, but your vision sounds a lot less interesting.

I didn't say simpler raid omg. I didn't say I want longer wait either. I said wait is merely a challenge that is acceptable naturally, like failing to kill a boss. It adds to the fun at the END, though it feels annoying now. It also add a dimension of realism. People appreciate some realism despite all the arcadeness.

---------- Post added 2013-03-15 at 08:48 PM ----------

Bottom line is people enjoy different things. The majority of WoWs community did not enjoy manually pugging everything from dungeons to raids. The manual work/time investment was not rewarding for them. Clearly you love it, I was on the did not side.

No, I cannot understand this. We're all the same because we're WoW players. We view failing pugs and group formation as a challenge only to overcome. I insist that we're all te same. I wish I had some more hard data like 2 years into the future to show in term of player declining.

You, like me, merely find group forming challenging but not game breaking. LFR/LFD is game breaking.

---------- Post added 2013-03-15 at 09:10 PM ----------

I don't think it's fair to say "Everyone likes WoW the same way, sorry!". Just using my guild as a small sample size, we have 4 different types of players. We have people who PvE and raid, people who dislike PvE and only enjoy PvP, people who do both (and usually prefer one over the other), and people who play and do whatever they feel like when they have time (casual).

I don't see why using the argument that "everyone is different" is an issue. You said that the things that make people different are insignificant and irrelevant. I don't agree with this. The fact that I don't agree with you here is evidence that differences ARE significant. Also, I would like to point out that many Blizzard employees are also WoW players who enjoy the game. If they continue to ruin the game with the sole intent of making money for Blizzard, they end up doing two things: ruining a game they enjoy playing AND alienating subs which would put their own jobs in jeopardy. Looking at the game purely as a business, it only makes sense for Blizzard to please their subs and cater to the vast majority. The moment they ruin that, Blizzard loses one of their biggest cash cows. There's no incentive for Blizzard to ruin WoW.

It is also true that Blizzard's subs have slipped from 12 million at their peak in WoTLK to their current estimate of around 10 million. I wouldn't necessarily attribute all those lost subs directly to Blizzard. There certainly have been people who stopped playing because of issues with the game such as LFR/LFG/etc, but I would argue that a larger population have just moved on. As people have stated, the game is nearly 8 years old. Many of the people that I know who no longer play this game weren't upset about new features but just decided it was time to move on. Other priorities came up, there were other games they enjoyed playing more, people found new hobbies, etc. As a fanbase grows, it's inevitable that people move on. The fact that Blizzard has been able to replenish those people for this long is actually pretty indicative that the game is in a decent place.

Granted, a lot of the points above are also opinion, but it's good to consider both sides.

It's true, everyone likes wow the same way: They like fun and excitement.

1) Forming group, failing, try again, succeed - that's fun because forming group is part of the game play.
2) PvP is fun and exciting for you? fine...
3) However, hating to form group is not the same as liking PvP and disliking PvE.

Forming group is part of the gameplay, the challenge, that contribute to the overall excitement. Logging on and doing the dungeon is merely the act of doing and is boring.

Look I've recognize that everyone is the same, especially when they're existing in the same context...

I swear to you, everytime I say I love forming group and everyone love forming group because it's part of the game play and everyone is the same... and you come in and say that's wrong because people are different... it's like:

1) I find babies adorable and everyone find them adorable because everyone is the same...

and you say:

2) No, that's wrong everyone is different and there are people who does not find babies adorable.

I cannot understand your argument. I'm matured enough to recognize that everyone is the same at the core basic natural instinct. Liking a challeng, in a context that you enjoy, is the same as finding babies adorable. Sure the PvPer don't like forming group (for PvE) but they belong to their own context, pvp. Infact, if part of PvP was forming group then PvPer will like it too. Now the PvEer... CANNOT dislike forming group. This is incomprehensible to me... as incomprehensible as finding sugar bitter.

You're going to find a way to explain the game's declining state: I.E it is becomming old and people are bored, like I expected.

I hav always argued that the state of the game is the reason for quit. It might seem like a majority of the population have moved on as you say but they're slowly leaking from the game... oneday you will find it different. Everyone is the same, when context are put into perspective, we like the same way.

There are small unqiue population of people in the world... like the pure genius. I think the one who purely like PvP only is this small niches... and vice versal for PvER. The biggest amount are the one in the middle who enjoy both... and if they enjoy both, the rule of forming the group apply to them. The niches are insignificant and their subscription alone wont keep WoW afloat. PvEer will leave the game because they dislike LFR/LFD like ME since they're same as ME.

I haven't meet those other people that you say "decide to mov on" because that's incomprehensible to me too... the only way I can explain it is that they're a small niches of people who are like the pure PvPer who will try ALL things for short amount of time and quit. They don't matter. The majority, the one in the same context, who likes PvE and PvP... are the significant one and theirs are the one leaking I'm afraid because of LFR/LFD, easy.

---------- Post added 2013-03-15 at 09:14 PM ----------

Separating 10 and 25-man would have a negative affect on guilds, as it did back in vanilla and TBC. It creates 'feeder' guilds which gear a player who then moves on to another guild making it to where said guild is never able to progress on toward 25-mans because they cannot retain players long enough until all the raid members get geared up. It's not a good model for any but the top 10 or so guilds per server.

I'm not a huge fan of LFR and LFD (and CRZ also) because they have somewhat removed that sense of server camaraderie. However, I have high hopes that at least as couple of Blizzard folks have understood this, as the new Thunder Isle patch has moved back in the other direction. It's refreshing to see general chat posts that such-and-such rare is up and people looking for groups to use the three gems to summon bosses and complete quests. Hoping that sort of thing continues as the game moves forward.

Also do not like LFR for, as you said, it makes raiding content not as rewarding when you can defeat an instance that easily and have virtually seen it all before entering normal ... and it also diminishes the playerbase for normal and heroic raiding as there are many people who simply just want to see the content and aren't as concerned about gearing their toon up.

But I've learned to live with it. It took some work on my part to find the right place and group of people to truly enjoy raiding again. And the bosses, at least some of them, are tough enough for my particular skill level even in normal mode to make it enjoyable again. So, I guess I've found a place where I'm okay that Joe Shmoe who does 20k dps can see the content.

The impetus is on the player to find a way to make the game fun, and that's how it should be. Taken further, you can even make the game enjoyable for someone else with a little thought, effort and kindness.

No, you cannot live with it. You need to complaint and fight until they turn it into what you used to enjoy... and as for the 10 man being training guild for 25 man guild... that's horrifying the people who do that. I guess I will do that too if I feel the 10 man guild don't have any grander plan.

...in my mind I have always imagiend 10 man guild preparing to be 25 man guild, and they would let their raider know. The raiders will stay loyal until thus time if they see progress. 10 man guild should not just stagnate at 10 man progression. They should have 10 for 1 raid, 10 people for another raid, and 5 people pugging, all progressing at the same pace. Once one group gets geared, they help the 5 man group to catch up and they all get together to do 25 man.

If leader doesn't have this mentality then it wouldn't work. You can depend on loyalty if the person's interest and the guild's progress are in order. This is really the only way for it to work IMO... because you have that sense of preparation.

...But I guess having ONLY 25 man raid can work to.

---------- Post added 2013-03-15 at 09:27 PM ----------

It's not a matter of opinio, but a matter of fact, that when things had to be manually grouped, very few people did it. LFD, LFR, and the expulsion of group quests didn't happen merely for convenience. It's because most people weren't doing that content. I don't know what you're getting at, dude, saying there's some sort of excitement factor or something. Maybe for you. Most everyone else flat out didn't do it :x

Having sever community, and all that is all well and good in theory. Not so much when so few people actively participated in it.

This is simply not true. It is just simply not true when you said very few people did it. It is just merely unbelievable based on itself alone.

In the context of wow and its subcontexs... where are the majority of players? I assume people who enjoyed PvP and PvE... when they did PvE... they LFG because... like I say part of the game play... like half of the process of doing a dungeon.

When you say everyone else flat out didn't do it... this is just inconcievable. PvE back then was a big context that netted in so many player.

I'd rather say everyone simply DID and enjoyed, though they might complain what about it annoy them.

Saying "WoW spend 1 hour forming a group and it disband on second boss" is like saying "WoW... we keep wiping on this boss 10 time" ... you don't freaking nerf the boss geeze. You keep trying until you own him and then you're all happy.

Except for rarest case where the boss is unreasonable... but forming a group is not within unreasonable bound. It is reasonable.

[Tomana]

When you say everyone else flat out didn't do it... this is just inconcievable. PvE back then was a big context that netted in so many player.

Blizzard issued statements that affirm the contrary. And guess what, they have the data for that.
The average wow player is not even max level, let alone doing max-level PVE, let alone doing high-end PVE.

Saying that PVE was a big context while the raiding population is so easily trackable (and was so at least till BC) is silly.

...in my mind I have always imagiend 10 man guild preparing to be 25 man guild, and they would let their raider know. The raiders will stay loyal until thus time if they see progress. 10 man guild should not just stagnate at 10 man progression. They should have 10 for 1 raid, 10 people for another raid, and 5 people pugging, all progressing at the same pace. Once one group gets geared, they help the 5 man group to catch up and they all get together to do 25 man.

And who on earth are you to decide what SHOULD be? You're not the game editor.
If you want, go create your own MMO, I'm sure it will be a greater success than wow XD

[LairenyX]

Blizzard issued statements that affirm the contrary. And guess what, they have the data for that.
The average wow player is not even max level, let alone doing max-level PVE, let alone doing high-end PVE.

Saying that PVE was a big context while the raiding population is so easily trackable (and was so at least till BC) is silly.

And who on earth are you to decide what SHOULD be? You're not the game editor.
If you want, go create your own MMO, I'm sure it will be a greater success than wow XD

I'm mean...I wassaying in my mind that's how I thought it worked by my experience. If the expansion went forward with Vanilla and TBC design but was edited so that only 25 man raiding existed then fine. You should have qoute the last thing I said too... which was "I'm fine if the the only raiding was 25 man"...

...Blizzard need to freaking publish all their data now to end this discussion ONCE AND FOR ALL that the direction and current game design decision is GOOD for everyone. They need to have this data so I can shut up with my complaining that I preffered raiding/dungeon how I said it in this whole thread.

Maybe you have it saved somewhere?

I want to know:

1) How many percent of the population was max level at MID TBC.
2) What they were doing
3) How many percent of the population was max level at 3/4 of TBC
4) What they were doing
5) Extensive inside or indirect/direct polls asking player what gave them excitement (only) during Vanilla and TBC
6) Extensive inside or indirect/direct polls asking what they found more exciting Vanilla and TBC or MoP? and what they found more exciting overall? forming a group and doing PvE or merely jumping right into and doing PvE.
7) DO they find the game more challenging now in MoP then compared to Vanilla and TBC? and which do they preffer more?

Until then, there is no meaningful data, and I can assume reasonably in reality, everyone is the same as me... and we all like forming group and doing reasonably challenging PvE content... like millions of us.

...otherwise it'll just be boredom that wear us out over time and cause the death of wow by slow leaking subscription.

[Tomana]

...Blizzard need to freaking publish all their data now to end this discussion ONCE AND FOR ALL that the direction and current game design decision is GOOD for everyone. They need to have this data so I can shut up with my complaining that I preffered raiding/dungeon how I said it in this whole thread.

This sort of data is a) internal b) displaying it to the public without users' (ALL users) consent could be illegal in some countries (France and Germany for sure) c) it would serve no real purpose for most people. Don't worry that marketing and controlling guys at Blizzard quite probably get that data on a regular basis.

What we have publicly is the number of raiding users who cleared this or that instance and (up to some point) separate US and EU subscription numbers.

7) DO they find the game more challenging now in MoP then compared to Vanilla and TBC? and which do they preffer more?

There is a post by Paragon somewhere (quoted on this forum) how they were totally noob and couldn't properly LoS from frost bombs on Vanilla Saphiron.
There is also a post by Paragon about how heroic Ragnaros was the hardest boss ever. Bosses got indeniably harder (but players also got better). Vanilla bosses weren't hard mechanics-wise. Heck, even most Pandaria rares have more mechanics than some vanilla 40 man bosses.

Until then, there is no meaningful data, and I can assume reasonably in reality, everyone is the same as me... and we all like forming group and doing reasonably challenging PvE content... like millions of us.

Isn't your head getting a bit too big? So, because you think something, everyone thinks the same thing? Did you even study statistics and what a representative sample is. Cause by that way, if you're a guy, then everybody around is a guy, which can easily be disproven. Or, if you voted Obama, then by your logic, everyone did.

Having played all BC long (and cleared Sunwell before 3.0 hit too), forming groups manually was a goddamn *********** pain in the booty I'm absolutely NOT going back to. The 10 vs 25 raids is more debatable, but Blizzard clearly decided to put 10 and 25 man guilds on the same footing.

[Nadev]

Dude you keep ignoring how I say forming a group is part of the gameplay.

Failing to form a group is the same as wiping on a boss. You keep at it damn until you kill that boss.

What does this accomplish you ask!? This will make people happy! It sure will make them feel more exciting and fun when playing the game. It won't piss of anyone.

If ppl hate forming group, they might as well hate wiping on boss, then they might as well complaint to have blizzard implement a "no-wipe" policy because "no-wipe" = LFR/LFD.

Seriously, forming a group was gameplay that was killed.

That's a foolish comparison. Wiping on a boss involves actually playing the game, experiencing content. Progress is (usually) made with each wipe until the boss finally hits the floor. Running laps around Dalaran spamming "LFG HoL" wasn't fun. It's an absolute waste of time. It prevents you from experiencing the content. I would be livid if they took out the LFG tool.

Once again, there is not a damn thing in this world stopping you from spamming your LFG macro in /2. In fact, it might even be quicker if you attempt it during peak hours since DPS will surely be thankful for being spared a 30-45 minute wait.

[Brash]

That's impossible because you're a casual. You'll never be able to finish casual raiding content.

---------- Post added 2013-03-14 at 12:33 AM ----------



That's why I said earlier the raids need to be different setting with different rank for gear... like in Vanilla.

Casual get blues and rare chances for purple at the end boss or in quest line design to up their tier 0 to 0.5.

This is in the game. It's called heroic dungeons.

[ChadBroChill17]

I believe that the WOTLK style of raid was quite nice. It was possible to PuG raids, if the PuGs were smart. Hardmodes however were a different story. You had to have a guild for those.

[LairenyX]

This sort of data is a) internal b) displaying it to the public without users' (ALL users) consent could be illegal in some countries (France and Germany for sure) c) it would serve no real purpose for most people. Don't worry that marketing and controlling guys at Blizzard quite probably get that data on a regular basis.

What we have publicly is the number of raiding users who cleared this or that instance and (up to some point) separate US and EU subscription numbers.


There is a post by Paragon somewhere (quoted on this forum) how they were totally noob and couldn't properly LoS from frost bombs on Vanilla Saphiron.
There is also a post by Paragon about how heroic Ragnaros was the hardest boss ever. Bosses got indeniably harder (but players also got better). Vanilla bosses weren't hard mechanics-wise. Heck, even most Pandaria rares have more mechanics than some vanilla 40 man bosses.


Isn't your head getting a bit too big? So, because you think something, everyone thinks the same thing? Did you even study statistics and what a representative sample is. Cause by that way, if you're a guy, then everybody around is a guy, which can easily be disproven. Or, if you voted Obama, then by your logic, everyone did.

Having played all BC long (and cleared Sunwell before 3.0 hit too), forming groups manually was a goddamn *********** pain in the booty I'm absolutely NOT going back to. The 10 vs 25 raids is more debatable, but Blizzard clearly decided to put 10 and 25 man guilds on the same footing.

Bro, I know in technical term... if you have 9 easy things and 1 hard thing then you can argue technically "the game is not easy as there is hard content"... what I'm concerned with is the overall feeling average players get from the game if the game was hard or easy.

Where the overall feeling result from "easy epic", "easy loot", "Easy dungeon doing" etc etc.

If you got all those thing easy and then you say WTF this game is boring because its easy... and some dude come in and say "this game is not easy, have you tried the one hard content?" I'll just go WTF. Again, regardless of how many HARD content there are. The important is the overall feeling FOR the game.

As for my head is too big... I'm not god... I'm just an average person trying to connect to everyone, make sense of the social world, and try to provide a reasonable explanation from my reasonable observation.

If I play it safe like you saying "everyone is different this and everyone is different that"... then I'm never gonna be brave enough to dish out 250 million to make Pacific Rim... why? cause everyone is different and no body is gonna watch it but 1 person and so I woulda waste my money.

---------- Post added 2013-03-15 at 11:12 PM ----------

That's a foolish comparison. Wiping on a boss involves actually playing the game, experiencing content. Progress is (usually) made with each wipe until the boss finally hits the floor. Running laps around Dalaran spamming "LFG HoL" wasn't fun. It's an absolute waste of time. It prevents you from experiencing the content. I would be livid if they took out the LFG tool.

Once again, there is not a damn thing in this world stopping you from spamming your LFG macro in /2. In fact, it might even be quicker if you attempt it during peak hours since DPS will surely be thankful for being spared a 30-45 minute wait.

You can argue technically to disprove me... but it doesn't really do anything because my arguement all along is that LFG is part of the game play, part of the challenge that add to the fun and exciting experience of the overall raiding/dungeon and hence the game. To remove it is to remove a crucial part of the game play that kills it for the player. LFG is half of the process of doing PvE... and with out it, player lose a part of the game that is important.

Experiencing the content I.E "doing" as I've been talking about is not the whole equation. It is boring by itself. You need a fuller experience.

There is A GREAT DAMN, I say a GREAT DAMN. LFR is what stop me. I gave you a reason already:

1) Why should I do dungeon normally or HC if I can experience the setting in LFR?
2) Why should I do LFR if I get fake gear?

Bro... a GREAT DAMN was done on me to stop me from doing LFG.

-------------------

I suspect you to be a player belonging to the insignificant PvP lover pool or some pool outside of the PvE lover or PvE and PvP lover pool who feels neutral and just want to have a part in the conversation... but you're merely contaminating it.

---------- Post added 2013-03-15 at 11:14 PM ----------

I believe that the WOTLK style of raid was quite nice. It was possible to PuG raids, if the PuGs were smart. Hardmodes however were a different story. You had to have a guild for those.

BAHHH I did WoTLK, though I was OKAY with it... I'd preffer it to be just a little harder.

I did managed to clear through lots of normal... and maybe half of the heroics... but the excitement is not the same. I wish to be able to clear when the difficulty as TBC and Vanilla.

[Elhana]

Casuals need a free epic gear vendor or QQ will never stop and blizzard is slowly heading that way.
"But I got family and kids and I can only play 5 minutes every hour, but I also pay thos 13e/month - GEIF EPIX NOW!!!11"

[LairenyX]

Casuals need a free epic gear vendor or QQ will never stop and blizzard is slowly heading that way.
"But I got family and kids and I can only play 5 minutes every hour, but I also pay thos 13e/month - GEIF EPIX NOW!!!11"

It's OK, blizzard can still make it work the old way. Make blue feels so well earned that it's ALMOST as good as epic.

[Fenixdown]

Bro, I know in technical term... if you have 9 easy things and 1 hard thing then you can argue technically "the game is not easy as there is hard content"... what I'm concerned with is the overall feeling average players get from the game if the game was hard or easy.

Where the overall feeling result from "easy epic", "easy loot", "Easy dungeon doing" etc etc.

As for my head is too big... I'm not god... I'm just an average person trying to connect to everyone, make sense of the social world, and try to provide a reasonable explanation from my reasonable observation.

If I play it safe like you saying "everyone is different this and everyone is different that"... then I'm never gonna be brave enough to dish out 250 million to make Pacific Rim... why? cause everyone is different and no body is gonna watch it but 1 person and so I woulda waste my money.

---------- Post added 2013-03-15 at 11:12 PM ----------



You can argue technically to disprove me... but it doesn't really do anything because my arguement all along is that LFG is part of the game play, part of the challenge that add to the fun and exciting experience of the overall raiding/dungeon. To remove it is to remove a crucial part of the game play that kills it for the player. LFG is half of the process of doing PvE... and with out it, player lose a part of the game that is important.

Experiencing the content I.E "doing" as I've been talking about is not the whole equation. It is boring by itself. You need a fuller experience.

There is A GREAT DAMN, I say a GREAT DAMN. LFR is what stop me. I gave you a reason already:

1) Why should I do dungeon normally or HC if I can experience the setting in LFR?
2) Why should I do LFR if I get fake gear?

Bro... a GREAT DAMN was done on me to stop me from doing LFG.

-------------------

I suspect you to be a player belonging to the insignificant PvP lover pool or some pool outside of the PvE lover or PvE and PvP lover pool who feels neutral and just want to have a part in the conversation... but you're merely contaminating it.

---------- Post added 2013-03-15 at 11:14 PM ----------



BAHHH I did WoTLK, though I was OKAY with it... I'd preffer it to be just a little harder.

I did managed to clear through lots of normal... and maybe half of the heroics... but the excitement is not the same. I wish to be able to clear when the difficulty as TBC and Vanilla.

Except everyone is different and as a result, games should be catered to as many individuals as possible. Which World of Warcraft does NOW. They DIDN'T back in vanilla or BC. It was three groups.

1. PvPers/Arenaers
2. Raiders
3. Everyone else stuck doing nothing at all

Now these groups all have their own subgroups. Do you raid heroics? Do you raid normals? Do you raid LFR? Do you do random BG's or rated? Do you do pet battles? Do you do challenge modes? Do you just like to run around and farm things? Do you like to kill rare mobs by yourself?

Do you understand what "everyone is different" actually means now? What you've been saying is that everyone played the game exactly the same way you did and everyone liked it. Which is FALSE. Because if that were true, the game would be exactly the same. There wouldn't be necessity to change things. However, each time someone quit their subscription because they were sick of doing Karazhan and nothing else for seven months straight, they put that in their little "why I quit" box, which you never saw. Or in vanilla, when they decided that there were so many places they would never have the time to see, so what's the point...they put that in their little box. When they put "because I can't get any gear progression without raiding in a 40-man environment", Blizzard saw that and said "Hmm, maybe we should make some raids smaller and give epics through other venues". Hey, know one of the systems you probably hate STARTED in BC? It's called THE BADGES SYSTEM. Where for just doing heroics on a daily basis, you could eventually buy epic quality gear. Sound familiar?

Blizzard doesn't need to share jack with you, because it is clear by their gaming design that the changes they make are for the majority of people who want them. Know what else shows that to be a fact? This game still has about 5 TIMES the playerbase of ANY major market MMO out there. More than Guild Wars, Star Wars, and every other kind of Wars you can think of. WoW not only trumps them all, but by margins that some of those games collectively can't even match.

The majority already spoke. Whatever you think they were saying, it's very clear they weren't. So...there ya go. Good bye. You got nothing left in your already empty barrel. That's it. Show's over. WoW is what it is now because that's what people want, and the proof is in the fact alone that WoW is now what it is. There's no ifs, and, or buts to it. Nobody cares what you think beyond that. Because what you think is quite clearly not an opinion shared by many. Need any more proof to that fact? Maybe read the responses in this thread a second time.

If you don't like it, well..tough.

[Deleted]

Not all casual players want easy epics and raids.

Prior to LFR I was happy enough pugging normal raids, maybe killing an occasional boss on heroic if the group was good. This worked extremely well and required a "community" of players, we knew who was good and who was bad based on experience and not achievements / ilvl.

The merge of 10 and 25 mans was what killed casual raiding.

[Djuntas]

They should just remove LFR, and make 5 mans and solo content a much better exsperience. I'd think a 10 man dungeon/raid would be really cool.