Will Lordaeron ever be restored?

[Frozen Death Knight]

Now you're just trying to be smart. It is very evident from the game lore and quests that the Forsaken are evil. There is objective good and evil in WoW, and they represent evil. If they had it their way, all of Azeroth would be ashes. Then what? Do they resurrect rabbits and deer once everyone else are dead and their corpses have been turned into monsters?

By Dreknar's logic, what Arthas and the Lich King did were perfectly morally justified, in that case. Still, we were perfectly able to justify killing off the Scourge. Go figure.

Only reason the Forsaken still are allowed to be around are because they are a part of the Horde. If they were not, we could bet our asses that Sylvanas and co. would be next in line on the boss menu.

[Dreknar20]

By Dreknar's logic, what Arthas and the Lich King did were perfectly morally justified, in that case. Still, we were perfectly able to justify killing off the Scourge. Go figure..

What?
All i was saying is that when people say stuff like Forsaken are evil because they defile the land dsnt hold a leg if your undead.
They have different tastes than living things, to them gloomy and decaying land isnt a disgrace, its an improvement.
To them using land for silly things like farms is wasteful and nasty, just as much as farms of fungus would be nasty to a human

Good and evil isnt universal.

[Frozen Death Knight]

You know, thats the problem with Nazis, they killed jews, but couldnt bring them back as "supreme race".

Forsaken deviate from nazi comparision by doing just what I described.

So the Forsaken killing everything just to raise stuff from the dead justifies their actions? How exactly did this argument work for Arthas, now again? Oh wait, it didn't, since he is stone dead.

[Kathranis]

Don't be ridiculous. The Forsaken are empty, dead shells of what they used to be. They came into existence from suffering and hate, and it is all they have been dealing with ever since. Wherever they go, they try to destroy life, corrupt it, and make a mockery of it.

Sylvanas had her revenge on Arthas, the only good thing to do would be to leave the land alone and let the day stay dead. But no, they have to linger on and make everybody else's existence a misery. Since Sylvanas is originally a good person, I can only assume that the state of undeath twists the mind of her and her minions. In that sense, they have lost their individuality and freedom - and it would be a merciful thing to put them out.

Kinda hard to maintain a moral highground when you're advocating genocide.

While it is true that almost all of the Sylvanas’ Forsaken were Lordaeron citizens in live, not all citizens of Lordaeron became undead. A large number of people originally from Lordaeron fled from their homes and lands to take refuge in different locations throughout Azeroth. Most of these exiles found refuge in the Kingdom of Stormwind, giving rise to a paradox: as they gave shelter to the Stormwind’s survivors of the First War, now they were the survivors who needed the help of Stormwind. These exiles have never forgotten their home, in fact every passing day they feel like strangers in a kingdom that is not theirs. Have no doubt that in their hearts they are still hoping to return to their beloved home someday.[/LIST]

It's ironic, if the people had not fled their home, leaving it to its fate, they would probably be Forsaken, and would still control Lordaeron, though they may be undead. And yet you would argue that they should be expunged.

In your view, the right, just thing to do is basically: neglect the defense of your home, then return 20 years later to kill the survivors who (successfully) defended it, just because they've changed into something you don't like.

---------- Post added 2013-04-13 at 05:20 PM ----------

So the Forsaken killing everything just to raise stuff from the dead justifies their actions? How exactly did this argument work for Arthas, now again? Oh wait, it didn't, since he is stone dead.

Not quite the same thing, as the Forsaken have free will, and those who don't want to be raised are allowed to return to death.

By and large, the Forsaken like being Forsaken, or at least would rather carry on and survive rather than dying. If being Forsaken were so horrible to them, they have plenty of ways to die.

[Alexeht]

On NW of Tirisfal Glades you got nice forest map (with big lake) - I think that somewhere there is hidden an old god (N'zoth ?), so probablly Tirisfal glades be even more sinister looking in future

Oh, and alliance have no rights to former Lordaeron! They lose it when they weren't able to protect it ...

[Dreknar20]

Kinda hard to maintain a moral highground when you're advocating genocide.

Whats wrong with that?
We near exterminate a number of races every x-pac

Hell right now we are launching wholesale slaughter against trolls and mogu

[Deleted]

Kinda hard to maintain a moral highground when you're advocating genocide.

It's kind of hard to commit genocide against a people which is already dead. Returning the Forsaken to their graves would be a favour, an act of good.

[Frozen Death Knight]

What?
All i was saying is that when people say stuff like Forsaken are evil because they defile the land dsnt hold a leg if your undead.
They have different tastes than living things, to them gloomy and decaying land isnt a disgrace, its an improvement.
To them using land for silly things like farms is wasteful and nasty, just as much as farms of fungus would be nasty to a human

Good and evil isnt universal.

What you were arguing for before does in fact justify what Arthas did.

Also, you don't have to be a moral absolutist in regards to the Forsaken to see that their undeath is more than just them preferring such an environment. They thrive on death and decay and want to make sure that nothing grows or lives. Their very nature justifies killing off all living things and that is where people tend to draw the line.

The Forsaken are simply morally bankrupt and apathetic by their very nature. The fact that they suffer greatly from their undeath every day while still dishing out that same pain and torment to others without much problem does not really scream morality to me.

They have the morality of a psychopath. If we are supposed to take such a world view seriously beyond the point that they have a mental disorder, then we will have a serious problem on our hands.

[Zenny]

It's kind of hard to commit genocide against a people which is already dead. Returning the Forsaken to their graves would be a favour, an act of good.

Don't be silly. Killing them would be no mercy. No matter how much you wish to delude yourself. And the undead are not dead hence the whole "un" in front of "dead".

Being undead ain't great but it's hardly a eternal curse of suffering, you also remain the same person you were in life, if somewhat mentally traumatized by the events of your death/rebirth.

[Deleted]

Don't be silly. Killing them would be no mercy. No matter how much you wish to delude yourself. And the undead are not dead hence the whole "un" in front of "dead".

Being undead ain't great but it's hardly a eternal curse of suffering, you also remain the same person you were in life, if somewhat mentally traumatized by the events of your death/rebirth.

You're wrong. Undeath has always been referred to as a curse. It is why the undead are always so bitter - they envy the living and hate everything due to their state. They are not real people anymore, they are shells of who they were. A real citizen of Lordaeron would never do what they are doing to the world, which is evidence enough for my point.

[Dreknar20]

It's kind of hard to commit genocide against a people which is already dead. Returning the Forsaken to their graves would be a favour, an act of good.

"They deserve it anyway because they are sub-human"
Kinda sounds like Hitler.....

---------- Post added 2013-04-13 at 05:50 PM ----------

A real citizen of Lordaeron would never do what they are doing to the world, which is evidence enough for my point.

because non-human things should totally behave exactly like humans

[Frozen Death Knight]

Not quite the same thing, as the Forsaken have free will, and those who don't want to be raised are allowed to return to death.

By and large, the Forsaken like being Forsaken, or at least would rather carry on and survive rather than dying. If being Forsaken were so horrible to them, they have plenty of ways to die.

Major difference between the Forsaken and a mind controlled Scourge is that the Forsaken don't kill allies that happen to be living as long as they gain something from it. Though, once the Horde is of no use to them anymore, they will backstab their former allies as well. If Sylvanas told her Forsaken to kill off Thrall and the Orcs, they would not hesitate, since their very nature sees no issue with this as long as it satisfies their core needs.

Free will is a cop-out as long as the Forsaken as a whole keeps being slaves to their needs to kill all living things and corrupt it to a point where life is no longer possible. The moment that happens I will change my mind about them. Though, that's not going to happen, by the looks of it.

[Deleted]

"They deserve it anyway because they are sub-human"
Kinda sounds like Hitler.....

---------- Post added 2013-04-13 at 05:50 PM ----------


because non-human things should totally behave exactly like humans

Go back to Sen'Jin village you troll.

[Frozen Death Knight]

because non-human things should totally behave exactly like humans

If they are not able to behave remotely like they did when they were still alive, then they are hardly being themselves, either. Whether they are undead or not, they still are Humans, but only mere shells of their former selves. Becoming undead does not constitute as them becoming a completely different race altogether.

[Zenny]

You're wrong. Undeath has always been referred to as a curse. It is why the undead are always so bitter - they envy the living and hate everything due to their state. They are not real people anymore, they are shells of who they were. A real citizen of Lordaeron would never do what they are doing to the world, which is evidence enough for my point.

Of course it's a curse, your body is rotting and your senses have been dulled. You are also forsaken by the light, a religion that the majority of undead believed in before their death. Coming back must have been one hell of a shock, I'm sure many would have likely succumbed to depression and killed themselves. What it's not is a eternal curse of suffering, the undead are not in pain for the rest of existence and you are not going to be putting them out of any sort of misery by slaughtering them. Killing them would not be doing them a favor. They are not mindless drones like the scourge under the thrall of the Lich King. I certainly do not envy what has happened to them but I acknowledge that they still have a right to continue their existence.

They may have been twisted by their experiences but they are still sentient/sapient individuals. They are as real as any human and killing them all would be a from of genocide. It would certainly not be the moral thing to do. Should the Alliance go ahead and exterminate everyone living in the Undercity then that would exceed any atrocity committed by the Horde.

[leaks]

If they are not able to behave remotely like they did when they were still alive, then they are hardly being themselves, either. Whether they are undead or not, they still are Humans, but only mere shells of their former selves. Becoming undead does not constitute as them becoming a completely different race altogether.

Why doesn't it? Are we gonna march on the Knights of the Ebonblade next? They can't even survive without constantly inflicting pain on others.

[McNeil]

I think we'll be see'ing some Forsaken VS Argent Crusade battles in the future, would be interesting.

[Garots]

Lore-wise, it'd be cool to see, but to balance each sides capital cities, it would never happen. Although, 5.3 is really introducing some new lore between the Alliance and Horde, so who knows.

[SirMeo]

You're wrong. Undeath has always been referred to as a curse. It is why the undead are always so bitter - they envy the living and hate everything due to their state. They are not real people anymore, they are shells of who they were.

There are rather cheery undead NPCs though. One of the very first undead NPCs a newly rolled undead character encounters is nice and helpful and gets excited when he gets to be a Deathguard later on. There is one Apothecary working for the Argent Crusade and he's not a ball of hate or self-pity either. Deathstalker Belmont explicitly states he feels more alive as an undead than he felt as a human.

Whether or not undead are evil as a race I don't bother commenting on, but undead are individuals with their own minds and desires and thus qualify as people.

[Northem]

It's ironic, if the people had not fled their home, leaving it to its fate, they would probably be Forsaken, and would still control Lordaeron, though they may be undead. And yet you would argue that they should be expunged.

In your view, the right, just thing to do is basically: neglect the defense of your home, then return 20 years later to kill the survivors who (successfully) defended it, just because they've changed into something you don't like.

I think there's a concept that people do not understand, I do not know if it's because people do not understand well English or something ... I'll try to summarize it as much as possible:

From the point of view of humanity (the Alliance) a person ceases to exist at death, therefore the Forsaken are nothing but monsters, not people, their only possible destination is to rest in their graves.

The dead are only entitled to one thing: to rot in their graves, nothing else, anything else is an evil and twisted form of necro-magic that must be eradicated.

The Queen Calia will clean the Kingdom of Lordaeron... Her armies will purge all existence of decay and evil. By the Holy Light the Queen Calia has been crowned, and out of respect for the citizens of Lordaeron who fell in battle, she will return the Kingdom of Lordaeron to its former glory...

For the Holy Light! For Lordaeron! Hail the Queen Calia! Glory to the Alliance!