Is ToT too challenging causing the guild break ups?

[TirielWoW]

Video games are supposed to be challenging and difficult. Otherwise you're just watching a movie that you control a character in. To me, there's just no fun in that. I must be old-fashioned.

That's why we have heroics, dear.

Normals are pretty easy this tier... feel free to armory me and look at my WOL to see how often we raid!

So ah...would you pug it with a group made up almost entirely of people who never fully cleared T14? I mean, since it's super easy, and all, and only "bads" can't get through it?

[Osmeric]

If ToT was too difficult then nobody would have cleared it already.

This is an obviously stupid argument. The criterion you propose would be satisfied if only Method could clear it.

[Belloc]

This is an overall trend I've been noticing as heroic modes have been evolving since their introduction. Normal modes have progressively gotten more and more loaded with sheer numbers of mechanics that there is less and less room to add them to Heroic modes.

As a raider since Vanilla, I contest this. The amount of mechanics per fight, in general, is pretty much the same as it used to be. If you'd like to point out any fights in particular, I'd be happy to compare them to various tiers in the past.

But, to give some examples:

Ignis: Spawns a huge AOE patch on the ground, can be countered by water. AOE patch is required to make adds enter a "molten" state, at which point you drag them into the water and hit them really hard to kill them. That, right there, is about 2-3 mechanics. He also picks people up and puts them in the pot that he wears, at which point they have to be spam healed. He also has an AOE interrupt that he uses on a regular basis. 4-5 main mechanics.

Horridon: Each door has an ability that needs to be dispelled (or interrupted) and a spot to not stand in. 2-3 mechanics there, if you include the interrupt. Boss also has a charge and a swipe. Another 2 mechanics, one of which is entirely ignorable (the charge). Finally, an add jumps down at the end of the fight and regularly uses AOE damage. So, on average, maybe one more mechanic than Ignis? Oh, and I suppose there's the dinomancer, who should be interrupted (mechanic stacks with previous interrupt mechanic) and who drops an orb at 50% that removes Horridon from the fight for about 10-15 seconds).

XT-002: Light bomb (deals AOE damage to nearby players), gravity bomb (sucks nearby players in), tantrum (AOE damage to raid), exposes heart, which takes extra damage, which is transferred to the boss, but is also used to start heroic mode, and spawns 3 different types of adds (one type heals the boss when it reaches him, one blows up upon death, dealing AOE damage to nearby players/mobs, and one simply requires tanking and killing). That's at least 4 mechanics before you even consider the adds.

Malygos: Breath that deals damage and causes an AOE explosion on target, AOE effect that lifts players up, constantly disrupts (not interrupts) casting, making healing and damage dealing difficult, Sparks that can be killed and stood in for a damage boost or eaten by the boss to increase his damage dealt, randomly targeted raid damage. 4 mechanics for the first phase. Second phase has two kinds of adds, one which comes down and must be tanked, the rest of which circle above. When they die, they drop a platform that allows players to fly (so melee DPS can hit the flying adds). Boss occasionally uses a "deep breath" style attack that is mitigated by standing in shields. another 3-5 mechanics. Phase 3 has movement-time AOE zones (meaning you can see it flying from the boss, giving you time to move), heavy single-target damage, and maybe another regular attack. Oh, and you're flying drakes (vehicle combat), requiring a different rotation than your class is used to, both for healing and for DPSing. DPS drakes use 2 attacks, healers use 2 heals, both use the shield. 8 mechanics? Total of 16ish mechanics, and the fight isn't even particularly difficult.

Beasts of Northrend: Phase 1: Impale on tanks (tank swap), snobolds (interrupts their target, must be killed)... and I think another attack that I can't remember. Phase 2: Mobile worm, immobile worm. One uses an acid attack that causes players to slow and eventually become permastunned, the other uses a fire attack that causes players to deal AOE damage. One player needs to move near the other to break them out of the slow/stun. Also, poison (void) zones appear. Mobility of the worms switch periodically. Immobile worm also has a knockback that hits anyone in melee range. Phase 3: Boss knocks players against the wall and targets one, slams into the wall where that player was, one-shotting anyone in the area. Also has a tank stun, on occasion, if I recall. Lots of mechanics on this fight.

Al'ar: Phase 1: Moves from platform to platform, occasionally flying to the center of the room and nuking the platforms. Spawns adds that knockback upon death (and, in phase 2, deals damage to the boss on death). Phase 2: Boss revives with full health, occasionally turns into a meteor and targets a random player. Drops fire (void) zones on the ground. Stacks a fire-damage-taken debuff when out of melee range. Puts an armor debuff on the tank. Plenty of mechanics here, too.

I could keep going and going and going, but I'm going to stop for now. There really aren't any more mechanics in today's fights than there have been in other expansions.

I mean, hell, look at a fight like Solarian: Puts a debuff on a player that will launch that player and nearby players high enough in the air to die from falling damage. Original target takes no falling damage. Spawns adds that deal damage and heal the boss. A few other attacks that simply require healing. This is a fight where the only mechanics that matter are the launch and the heals. You interrupt/kill the heals and you have the launch person run out. Can you guess how many times my guild (at the time) wiped to that one mechanic? That one, simple mechanic? I mean, the ability happens on a timer and everyone knows to be looking out for it. Raid leaders call it who it's on. And people STILL fail at it, instantly wiping the raid.

My point? You can have a fight with one mechanic and people will still fail. Mechanics aren't the problem -- players are.

[Mad_Murdock]

Now there you go a non heroic raiding guild that only killed sha 3 weeks before TOT, has not yet cleared all of t15, on a 4 hour a week raiding scheduel 9 manning half of the instance... Clearly overtuned and hard

So you've done with 9 what only 50% of the current raiding guilds have been able to do with 10 people. So what is your fix for the shrinking raiding population ? That the 50% of the guilds who are behind your 9 man team should just quit playing ?

I think your group is a tad misleading. You're doing great for a 1 night a week guild, but where would you really be if you raided 2 nights a week ? Or 3 nights a week ? I'm guessing you would be much higher into the Heroic clears. Which means you're still heroic skilled raiders, just doing a very casual raid schedule. Not really the same for the 50% of the guilds who are skill capped and sitting at 4/12.

"Get better or quit" I know that's the answer and we're seeing the answer in action.

[Smigel]

Wiping on Horridon can be pretty fun but I wish there were 3 or 4 "easy" bosses so we could have something to farm each week instead of T14. ToT has been out for 2 months and we just aren't making any progress.

I'm in that uncomfortable spot where it's either raid with the people I like and just kill Jin'rokh each week or find a new raid.

[TirielWoW]

"Get better or quit" I know that's the answer and we're seeing the answer in action.

Which is great, really. Until his guild has to recruit. Then he'll see exactly where the "get better or quit" mantra leads.

[pallyopness]

and that is where it all boils down to......are you willing to wipe over and over on a boss for the sake of raiding with friends who arent skilled enough....or would you prefer finding players closer to your skill to progress.....its very few and far between that can accomplish both

[Glorious Leader]

Which is great, really. Until his guild has to recruit. Then he'll see exactly where the "get better or quit" mantra leads.

Please don't alert them to this. I've come to the conclusion that I would rather enjoy their tears when they find themselves WITH NOBODY ELSE TO PLAY WITH because LFR has absorbed everybody and raiding is to hard for the average player.

[deistic]

That's why we have heroics, dear.



So ah...would you pug it with a group made up almost entirely of people who never fully cleared T14? I mean, since it's super easy, and all, and only "bads" can't get through it?

You miss the point my single minded friend. This overtuned thread isn't talking about people who never cleared T14, it's talking about people who are currently progressing through ToT.


Now I will say this, if you are saying you need a 500+ ilvl to do ToT, you do not. 496 should be good for the first few bosses ATLEAST. If you are not 496, or complain that it is too hard, then ofcourse normal ToT is too overtuned for you because you are a lazy scrub. There is absolutely no reason anyone should wine about getting to 496 ilvl. Go kill a rare spawn in Isle of Thunder and get your key and open some chests and get some coins, and then kill bosses. Do LFR, World Bosses, buy some BoE's, for god sakes scrubs, BUY SOME BOE's.

Making gold in this expansion is a joke, you can make 1-3k in an hour of farming/profession. EASILY.

LFR's use your coins, get that piece of gear holding you back. LFR's 476ilvl, 483ilvl, and 502ilvl. 12 Bosses of LFR that drop 502 ilvl OMG.

REP VENDOR, NEUTRAL 522 NECK. Then farm some ToT trash or do the damn LFR and get upto friendly (SOOOO HARD?!?!?) then get a RING or a WRIST, 522 ilvl.

BOSSES ARE TOO HARD? Do you have a disability? Are you 40+? DO you drink alcohol or do drugs that impair your sense? Are you handicapped in some way, shape or formed? BECAUSE EVEN THOSE PEOPLE CAN DO TOT NORMAL BOSSES (EYES CLOSED).

Go kill Jin'rokh on normal, Normal Jin'rokh should be the LFR version, and heroic Jin should be the normal version. Jin'rokh is easy, and omg 522 ilvl gear again. OON/Nalak 522 gear. LFR trash bags chance on drop 502 ilvl item, OH MY GOD.


Getting gear is easy, you just need to put some effort into it. Half of you QQ'ers complain because you don't want to farm, you don't want to grind, you don't want to spend time wiping on a boss. Join a good guild, get carried or something, stop complaining because 13 year olds can kill bosses. This game is an overall jokes, nerds do all the hard work for us and leave video's and guides for us to follow and learn from.


NEED HELP LEARNING A FIGHT......? GOOOGLE IT! YOUTUBE IT! SEARCH WOW FORUMs, SEARCH MMO Forums, GOOD YOUR CLASS FORUMS! Ask people in game, practice in LFR, learn strategies, watch a video to learn the strat then practice in LFR. Know MECHANICS, where to stand, how to increase your dps, when to pop YOUR cds, etc etc.


It's beyond simple. Put some time into the game and stop whining. PvE is great imo, maybe too many classes have too many utilities for you small brained people to remember so make a note or something.



Good day.

Infracted

[Odina]

"Get better or quit" .

Actually no as I posted before i feel one of the main issues is Normal raiders no longer wish to ask for help like they did in the past. Too many are reliant on what a heroic guild tossed out as a how to do it strat / vid rather than figuring it out and or asking for help from others. I don't knwo how many times we saw a "please help on XYZ" in the raiding form on this site only to have countless peopel come in and give tips and then a couple days later 'Thank youall so much got it"! THAT IS RAIDING! shit falling over with no effert is not raiding overcomming something that is hard is raiding!

As well the guild rading 2-3 more nights than us... what are they doing after a night of wipes to a boss? Do they come back and do the same thing again? looking at many replies I can't seem to find any of them trying to get better to beat it so why would it all of a sudden die if they have not changed anything?

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

[Hubbl3]

Which is great, really. Until his guild has to recruit. Then he'll see exactly where the "get better or quit" mantra leads.

Yeah, choosing between content in lolmode and not being able to raid at all is a tough choice *gg*

[Odina]

Which is great, really. Until his guild has to recruit. Then he'll see exactly where the "get better or quit" mantra leads.

We have had many come and go since DS and there has been zero problems! people come in don't do so well at first and we help them with there rotations, gearing, tactics, UI ... you know what a guild should do for eachotehr help out the others in there weak areas! I will be the first to say we were held back in t14 becuase we changed a good 3-4 people during it's cource but thats the life of a raid team!

[shimerra]

That's why we have heroics, dear.

And we have normals if you want something that takes a medium amount of effort and LFR if you want something that takes the ability to turn on your computer and log into WoW.

[melodramocracy]

Please don't alert them to this. I've come to the conclusion that I would rather enjoy their tears when they find themselves WITH NOBODY ELSE TO PLAY WITH because LFR has absorbed everybody and raiding is to hard for the average player.

Raiding has ALWAYS been hard for the average player, which is why you've never seen more than 50% of the player base participating in it.

[TirielWoW]

Please don't alert them to this. I've come to the conclusion that I would rather enjoy their tears when they find themselves WITH NOBODY ELSE TO PLAY WITH because LFR has absorbed everybody and raiding is to hard for the average player.

Except I'm going to cry, too.

I started out in a little tiny terribly casual guild. I was ridiculously happy pugging into Mags, Gruuls, SSC, TK, BT and Hyal. I never killed Vashj. I pulled Kael'thas a few times. We never got Archi, but I got as far as Illidari Council in BT. I never saw Sunwell before Wrath. Ever. I never set foot in there for so much as a trash run.

In Wrath, I was so proud that my tiny (and terrible) guild could clear Naxx 25. I had REAL tier, just like the cooler guilds (although I got mine a lot slower!). We never got Sarth 3D down, but we were inordinately proud of getting Maly down.

In Ulduar, we got stymied, but it just took us longer to go. It helped that we could cherry pick bosses to work on, instead of having to go in a straight line.

By the time Ulduar was done, I had left for a more progressed guild, and spent the rest of the expansion raiding 4-5 nights a week, smashing my face into things like H Anub and H LK.

But it has taken me watching guilds I love just...fall to pieces..over the past two expansion...to realize that hardcore guilds live and die with the casual "bads" in this game. You may think you don't, but you do. Those "casual guilds full of bads" accept the players the hardcores won't because they're not experienced enough, geared enough, etc. They give those noobs experience, gear, training, and advice. And then a small percentage of those noobs move on to bigger and brighter things. And so it goes.

Hardcore raiders burn out, just like everyone else. What I don't understand is why no one seems to be asking where the fuck we're going to get replacements for those raiders that burn out when we're allowing the guilds that FEED US to fall apart?

You can't raid with just yourself.

[Glorious Leader]

Raiding has ALWAYS been hard for the average player, which is why you've never seen more than 50% of the player base participating in it.

No raiding has been inaccessible for the average player. "Hard" is a different story altogether. LFR makes raiding EXTREMELY accessible for the average player. Hard normal tiers make raiding normal extremely inaccessible for the average player. Guess where the average player will go?

[BergErr]

Summer is comming and too long between patches (or too fast to clear old content).
ToT hard? On most normal fights u barely even have to move (Jin'rokh, council, tortos, megaera, jikun, durumu, dark animus, primordius, twins.) As DPS there is zero fucks given about whats going on, u just stand still and press your rotation. Dat skillcap.

Most should have near full 522 by now if they raid (by valor if no drops) so gear should be no issue.

[Glorious Leader]

You can't raid with just yourself.

They seem to think they can. They seem to think they can plug their ears in ignorance and scream lalalalalal raiding is fine and that nothing need be done to draw more players in. Since it is has proved virtually impossible to disabuse them of this silly and ignorant notion the inevitable outcome is the death of normal raiding. I welcome it and let it be known that is on their hands that this happened. Some of us tried to make a difference..

[Kalcheus]

They seem to think they can. They seem to think they can plug their ears in ignorance and scream lalalalalal raiding is fine and that nothing need be done to draw more players in. Since it is has proved virtually impossible to disabuse them of this silly and ignorant notion the inevitable outcome is the death of normal raiding. I welcome it and let it be known that is on their hands that this happened. Some of us tried to make a difference..

I'm not actually sure they actually believe this, I think most of them can't simply resist the chance to flaunt their e-peen.

[TirielWoW]

Guess where the average player will go?

They quit. A lot of them just quit. Like the tank in my previous guild.