Why is Exclusive content a bad thing to some people?

[Ronduwil]

Frogger was never a multiplayer co-operative experience. Point taken. It's not a perfect analogy but it is close enough to what's being asked of raiders today.

I didn't mean to dispute your analogy. My intent was to take it further. Arcade games could afford to be more difficult because you weren't relying on others. When Billy Mitchell played that perfect Pac-Man game he didn't have to train up nine other people and make sure they didn't screw up. Heroic Raids, however, demand just that. You can get five of the best players in the world together, but they're not going to beat a normal current tier 10-man, let alone a heroic one, without five other decent players. People on highly progressed servers complain about their 1000-person queues while the people on not-so-progressed servers are living in ghost towns. The imbalance here can directly be attributed to the fact that if you can't find anyone good to play with in today's arcade-style raid environment you're simply wasting your time.

[Glorious Leader]

I didn't mean to dispute your analogy. My intent was to take it further. Arcade games could afford to be more difficult because you weren't relying on others. When Billy Mitchell played that perfect Pac-Man game he didn't have to train up nine other people and make sure they didn't screw up. Heroic Raids, however, demand just that. You can get five of the best players in the world together, but they're not going to beat a normal current tier 10-man, let alone a heroic one, without five other decent players. People on highly progressed servers complain about their 1000-person queues while the people on not-so-progressed servers are living in ghost towns. The imbalance here can directly be attributed to the fact that if you can't find anyone good to play with in today's arcade-style raid environment you're simply wasting your time.

And I agree. The solution to all of this out of blizzard is to simple divide players up into niches of difficulty. It's better than what we've got currently but I fear it will have some long term effects that are quite bad for the game. Instead of abandoning the frogger model they'd rather just divide the community up further and further.

[DeadmanWalking]

Well, why didn't you say so in the first place? Youtube has allowed you to SEE THE CONTENT for years. LFR didn't change that. You don't even have to log into the game to see the content. The 1980s called and they want that gaming paradigm where the only way to see content was to beat the game or admire screenshots in a gaming magazine back. I'm sorry, but this expectation of yours is just not reasonable in 2013.

The entire seeing the content arguement is invalid.
1. Its experiencing the content and a player should be able to experience the content as much as they want. The only ones who should be setting requirements on experiencing content is Blizzard, not 1% of the playerbase. If ilevel 460 is enough for MSV then thats enough of a bar to determine who gets to see the content without someone kicking someone else out he door because they have a blue shirt on.

2. If the point was to see the content then why would a heroic raider ever go back in to fight the same boss twice? Shouldn't they just quit after Ragnaros goes down and not give 2 shits if someone got their epic staff? Or is the point to overcome an objective, enjoy doing the content that you enjoy with people you enjoy doing it with, and getting loot to make your performance better?

3. If LFR was to see content then only the first few people in the door would get to see the content. Then once those players saw it the queue lines would be infinitely long and no one else would see the content. The loot is there to give character progression, gear people up so they can contribute to the downing of a raid boss should they get the opportunity and give them a reason to continue to return to LFR so more new people can actually experience the content. No loot=No LFR

No LFR=No reason to spend 90% of your post-leveling/quest resources on 1% of the playerbase that actually gets to experience it.

Seeing the content is a misnomer, you can see the content on Youtube. Experiencing the content is what all players want, all of them. If you can't tell the difference between watching others do the content and experiencing the content then you can't be helped.

Finally and most importantly: If LFR gets shut down then they have to spend more time creating content for 99% of the playerbase to keep them subscribed and that means LESS RAID CONTENT LESS OFTEN!!! You guys are just going to have to accept that killing LFR is not going to happen. Its not logistically possible, and its not realistically possible if you want to maintain your favorite raid content.

[Deleted]

It's funny how posters think that 99% of wow players are doing LFR

[Tomana]

How much time the average target customer has is probably a number that no one will come to an agreement on.

It would be an interesting exercise to have access to stats on what the average play time is for both raiders and non raiders (and everything in between).

I doubt that Blizzard will release such kinds of stats.
But even without those, requiring hours of play (i.e. norm/HC raiding) that most target audience players don't have would be a poor move from any editor. It's certain that all VGs require you to spend time but MMOs are a special case.

[DeadmanWalking]

It's funny how posters think that 99% of wow players are doing LFR

I didn't say 99% were in LFR. I said 99% were not doing Raid content. Blizzard stated that less than 1% acually saw the Liche King go down, so its not unreasonable to say that 99% of the players don't see the end game boss go down. Lei Shen is content, if 99% were not supposed to see his content then why spend resources creating that content?

100% should BE ABLE TO see the content. If they see it or not is up to them, if they dont want to do LFR to see the content they don't have to as opposed to having no choice in the matter.

[Deleted]

No, it's not. The player is the one who isn't willing to do what's needed. The game isn't impeding them in the slightest.

So your counter argument here is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying 'lalala I can't hear you'?

Good to know for future reference.

Apologies. when I said "time and effort is the exclusionary factor. lol" I was taking the piss.

Neither time nor effort are the barriers to seeing HC mode content. Man management, organisational ability and personality are the key factors.

If the key factors were in game and solvable in game, then you might have a point (you still don't because even players can't play that well either) but they aren't and therefore you are wrong.

it's all in the back end.

[isadorr]

It's funny how posters think that 99% of wow players are doing LFR

LFR? I run it on my alts when they first hit 90 then run the normal clear of amazing HARD Tot with the rest of the guild on alt/pug run we do each week.

[melodramocracy]

If you could potentially understand that other people are not basement dwelling no life neck beards who commit 20 hours to this game, if you could EMPTAHIZE with another human being then you would hardly call it unreasonable.

I have plenty of empathy, as I play this game less than a good percentage of folks do. The difference is that I completely accept the fact that there are many things I won't accomplish because I'm not willing to invest said time in them. That bit of self reflection, apparently, isn't appealing to most folks on the forums, who'd rather demand that the game be brought to down to a time investment level they deem appropriate*




*so they can spend more time getting that legendary cloak on their 3rd alt. Oops, I meant.. not playing as much because of real life demands.

[Deleted]

I didn't say 99% were in LFR. I said 99% were not doing Raid content. Blizzard stated that less than 1% acually saw the Liche King go down, so its not unreasonable to say that 99% of the players don't see the end game boss go down. Lei Shen is content, if 99% were not supposed to see his content then why spend resources creating that content?

100% should BE ABLE TO see the content. If they see it or not is up to them, if they dont want to do LFR to see the content they don't have to as opposed to having no choice in the matter.

Sry but everyone always had and has the chance to see the content on normal mode difficulty at least. Just not via a lfg system, but with other players (guild or pug).

[isadorr]

And I agree. The solution to all of this out of blizzard is to simple divide players up into niches of difficulty. It's better than what we've got currently but I fear it will have some long term effects that are quite bad for the game. Instead of abandoning the frogger model they'd rather just divide the community up further and further.

You decide what part of the community you are, not blizzard. Players divide themselves and play with others with the same goal and how good they are at the game which is why good players and bad players normally don't get along when blizzard puts them together. Two mindsets that are completely opposite of one another yet can share the same goals with one person willing to get there and the other not willing to become better to get there.

Osmeric and his quotes as he defends his kingdom of whiners.

[Osmeric]

Blizzard stated that less than 1% acually saw the Liche King go down,

I don't believe they ever said that, or that figure is even correct. Do you have a reference or a link?

[melodramocracy]

Man management, organisational ability and personality are the key factors.

If the key factors were in game and solvable in game, then you might have a point (you still don't because even players can't play that well either) but they aren't and therefore you are wrong.

it's all in the back end.

I agree with you on the key factors. All of those key factors are attainable however... again, it boils down to whether player x is willing to get to the point that player y is.

Beyond these human elements, encounters generally boil down to math, with some rng thrown in based on who gets hit by what unavoidable thingamabobber. The encounters stay open and available for anyone who'd entertain the offer, which is why they aren't exclusive.

Attaining world first on a given tier is an exclusive game device. Because no matter what, only 10/25 people are going to get it, and once they do, it's impossible to achieve again until next tier.

Any item that is considered "one per server" (I know other games have had such things, I don't believe WoW has anything like this?) is exclusive content.

[DeadmanWalking]

Sry but everyone always had and has the chance to see the content on normal mode difficulty at least. Just not via a lfg system, but with other players (guild or pug).

So what you mean is that all the guilds take in anybody and everybody to go see that content right? Or do they say, "Sorry you don't meet the requirements to join us, you don't have the experience so you can't get the experience. You don't have the gear so you can't get the gear." Blizzard never intended the player base to set the bar as to who gets to experience the content, so because the player base doesn't want scrubs and they don't want to help scrubs get better Blizzard had to design a system that you could experience the content even if you didn't measure up to some players arbitrary measuring system.

And its experiencing the content, not seeing it. There would be no reason for you to raid since you can see the content on youtube. Thus according to your own logic theres no need for raid content since you can see someone do it on youtube.

[melodramocracy]

I don't believe they ever said that, or that figure is even correct. Do you have a reference or a link?

If you're talking pre-stacking nerf, this stat wouldn't really surprise me. There were a lot of realms that didn't down him prior to that starting.

[Osmeric]

If you're talking pre-stacking nerf,

That wasn't the claim being made.

[Glorious Leader]

I have plenty of empathy, as I play this game less than a good percentage of folks do. The difference is that I completely accept the fact that there are many things I won't accomplish because I'm not willing to invest said time in them. That bit of self reflection, apparently, isn't appealing to most folks on the forums, who'd rather demand that the game be brought to down to a time investment level they deem appropriate*




*so they can spend more time getting that legendary cloak on their 3rd alt. Oops, I meant.. not playing as much because of real life demands.

Oh they accept it to. They just leave the game. Their acceptance is that this game is no longer for them and that the developers don't deserve their 15 bucks. They don't even really whine about it on the forums. They just leave with the acknowledgment that they no longer find any value in this game (certainly not 15 bucks a month value) and it is in part because some players needed more to do and that necessitated mr 2 hour would get less for his time (and ultimately money) invested in the game.

Would they rather the game be brought down to their level so they can continue playing and enjoying it? Sure. That's like askiing would you rather be a satisfied customer or an unsatisfied one?. Of course they would rather be satisfied. Do they by and large make that demand of the developers? Nope. They leave them feedback and then that's it. The developers can choose whichever group to cater to and they know where their bread is buttered.

[Deleted]

So what you mean is that all the guilds take in anybody and everybody to go see that content right? Or do they say, "Sorry you don't meet the requirements to join us, you don't have the experience so you can't get the experience. You don't have the gear so you can't get the gear." Blizzard never intended the player base to set the bar as to who gets to experience the content, so because the player base doesn't want scrubs and they don't want to help scrubs get better Blizzard had to design a system that you could experience the content even if you didn't measure up to some players arbitrary measuring system.

And its experiencing the content, not seeing it. There would be no reason for you to raid since you can see the content on youtube. Thus according to your own logic theres no need for raid content since you can see someone do it on youtube.

I didn't think my post was too difficult to understand - maybe ask Blizzard to nerf it for you

Look at the pugs for T14, there are always players lfm in the forums because it's possible to do it crossrealm. When T16 hits there will be pugs for ToT. So where is the problem?

Of course if you want a game where you have to put in zero effort to see the latest content, then you need LFR.

[Deleted]

I agree with you on the key factors. All of those key factors are attainable however... again, it boils down to whether player x is willing to get to the point that player y is.

none of the key factors is attainable The ability to lead, the persistent personality type that will sit on the same boss for hours are smply not widepread in the gen pop, nor are they learnable skills.

bear in mind you can be amazingly competent at the game and not have these skills or traits and you are automatically shut out of he best content.

Beyond these human elements, encounters generally boil down to math, with some rng thrown in based on who gets hit by what unavoidable thingamabobber. The encounters stay open and available for anyone who'd entertain the offer, which is why they aren't exclusive.

Attaining world first on a given tier is an exclusive game device. Because no matter what, only 10/25 people are going to get it, and once they do, it's impossible to achieve again until next tier.

Any item that is considered "one per server" (I know other games have had such things, I don't believe WoW has anything like this?) is exclusive content.

Content that 95% of the playerbase cannot do is exclusive. End of story. Doesn't matter why.

[DeadmanWalking]

I don't believe they ever said that, or that figure is even correct. Do you have a reference or a link?

My work graphic design computer is pretty shitty, cant google the link but if you google 'Mike Morhaime announces number of Arthas kills' you get a wow insider article and one comment below lists the wowprogress report for liche King which stats that .78% of the playerbase saw the heroic Liche King fight. Regular Liche King is 12%. Now thats not how many even defeated him but rather how many experienced the fight. Then all the podcasts at that time had a discussion about the fact that .78% actually saw the heroic liche king content (during an entire year of that tier mind you).

So how can you as a business survive if you have a carnival tent and take money from 1,000 people but only 7 or 8 people actually get to go inside and see the show? Theres going to be some pissed off people.