Warlock patch 5.4 discussion

[Moggie]

I'm still pretty curious how it's performing in a raid on the PTR instead of doing guessimations. Some other classes also got toned down while some got buffed, so where does it sit in an actual raid group? We already know Aff is fine, Demo will be alright. But besides like the what we keep reading everywhere like what almara2512 is saying 18k dps nerf from 5.3, still doesn't actually tell anybody anything. I do agree with Werst it's a stalling tactic and one he's adores doing towards various classes. But before crying wolf, where is this all conclusive proof Destro is at the bottom of the barrel in SoO? Not seen anything yet, has anybody else?

[Deleted]

It's not simple math. There are a lot of variables involved and it's not an easy job. To say that they don't know what they're doing is kinda ignorant. Classes seem to be more balanced than ever before from what I can remember anyway.

Not every single spec is going to do the exact same damage in the exact same situation. If they did people would complain that all specs play the same (see: hunters). Warlocks are in an amazing spot still, we have 3 viable specs (yes destruction currently sucks on ptr single target, but it still has the niche aoe right? Plus it's very easy to play and maximize damage compared to Demo or affliction IMO) and amazing utility.

"You can't have your cake and eat it too" seems to apply here very well IMO. You want to play your preferred spec and be OP in all situations... how is that fair? If you don't care that much about hardcore progression, then does it really matter? If you do care, respec.

its actually very very simple math with very few variables involved.

and we're not asking destro to do the same dmg as say demo or afflic, all ppl want is for it to be atleast passable on single target.

dunno why on earth you would mention OP'ness, none of us have mentioned wanting destro to be OP. doesnt seem like you get the point at all. ill try to explain it to you as if you're a 4 y/o, it isnt about being OP, its about being passable and not a joke.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm still pretty curious how it's performing in a raid on the PTR instead of doing guessimations. Some other classes also got toned down while some got buffed, so where does it sit in an actual raid group? We already know Aff is fine, Demo will be alright. But besides like the what we keep reading everywhere like what almara2512 is saying 18k dps nerf from 5.3, still doesn't actually tell anybody anything. I do agree with Werst it's a stalling tactic and one he's adores doing towards various classes. But before crying wolf, where is this all conclusive proof Destro is at the bottom of the barrel in SoO? Not seen anything yet, has anybody else?

well, if you think about it, actually think about it, thoroughly and logically, you wouldnt even need proof, we know that destro locks more or less uses 100% of ember generated on single target, i think every destro lock would agree with that. then lets say we normally generate 1 ember bit ever 1 sec or so, we'll say 1,25 sec to be conservative. that means in a 10 min fight, we would generate 48 whole embers. now reduce that by 33% and you'll have 32 embers or have generated 16 fewer embers than on live. now my chaos bolts and shadowburn does about 5-600k dmg on average. we'll say 550k*16 which is 8,8mill dmg that is going to disappear on single target dps alone. this will result in dps loss of atleast 14,667k dps and that was with very conservatively estimated ember generation as its prolly closer to 1 ember bit pr sec on average on live with avg dmg closer to 600k and the loss will only get bigger as gear get better, there is no scenario where the ROF ember generation from single target isnt a dps loss in the 15-20k dps area.

[Schma]

lol, you're the one who is acting like a four year old. Okay, simple math? Show me some proof. Tell me exactly how much damage you will lose (percentage wise), with new trinkets and new tier. Don't forget to take into account encounter design with all the adds, etc.

PTR testing gives us an idea of the direction things are going. Glad to hear the other 2 specs are doing well.

Also isn't the RPPM change better for destruction? (not counting UVLS). More time to fill up embers before popping CD's to line up with our trinket procs seems good to me.

Really I'm just annoyed about all the doom and gloom combined with all the guesswork. Do you think dev's will read any of this and take you seriously? Give me a break

[sasofrass]

It's not simple math. There are a lot of variables involved and it's not an easy job. To say that they don't know what they're doing is kinda ignorant. Classes seem to be more balanced than ever before from what I can remember anyway.

It is simple math. Our ember generating spells end up doing around 50% of our damage on a single target fight (higher on multitarget). Take away 1/3 our embers, now we cast 1/3 less ember generating spells, which now make us lose around 15% damage single target. Literally basic napkin math using logic and I can guarantee if you test this yourself you'll see the same result.

Not every single spec is going to do the exact same damage in the exact same situation. If they did people would complain that all specs play the same (see: hunters). Warlocks are in an amazing spot still, we have 3 viable specs (yes destruction currently sucks on ptr single target, but it still has the niche aoe right? Plus it's very easy to play and maximize damage compared to Demo or affliction IMO) and amazing utility.

Don't care if the damage is up to par with affliction or demo as long as it's still competitive with other classes. As of now, Destruction sits far below other classes in single target and maybe middle of the pack on heavy target (like garrosh). On 3-4 targets, it's slightly below middle of the pack.

"You can't have your cake and eat it too" seems to apply here very well IMO. You want to play your preferred spec and be OP in all situations... how is that fair? If you don't care that much about hardcore progression, then does it really matter? If you do care, respec.

It's never been OP and I don't want it OP. I want it viable. It's had one fight where, because of destructions design, let it do stupid amounts of damage. One fight, and even then affliction and arcane can do nearly as much damage. Players should be allowed to play and dps spec they wish and still do viable amounts of damage. If the PTR Destro goes live, it will literally be unplayed because it's damage can not compare to the other specs or dps classes.

Huh? Last out of our three specs? Also, what single target fights? Jin rok is an RNG fest. Can't really think of any other ones that are purely/mostly single target (heroic). Maybe twins but destruction isnt that bad there either (I still don't play it though for h twins)

Iron Qon is single target until the very end, Twins is single target until they're both out (but on heroic they're usually spread), Jikun if you do the burn strat is single target, and Jinrohk is single target (but i can agree on the rng factor making it a poor data fight),

If you have been reading, we have been discussing destruction with single target and low targets. On live it's OK because of rain of fire. On PTR it's below affliction/demo by a huge margin and it's below all other dps classes aswell.


Look, we are not whining just because we want buffs. We are discussing because the damage for destruction specifically is so low that it's not a viable option, and now the aoe is clunky (meaning FnB will turn off even on 5 targets). The spec feels dull, clunky, unfinished, and very weak all because of one change and blizzard is incapable of seeing that.

[Schma]

FnB incinerate spam is dumb on anything other than trash and heroic durumu walls. Anything else the proper way to AoE is to put immolate on everything (with fnb of course), rain of fire, and chaos bolt spam the targets that need to die. Right? Do we have enough embers on ptr to do that? Because on live with only a few targets, you have more embers then you can spend (which is stupid). Don't forget too that with the new havoc glyph we can get 2 double chaos bolt cleaves.

Anyway I hope they do buff destruction, because I think green fire is awesome. :P

Oh ya. Jikun strat only works that way because of higher gear levels. You wouldn't be doing that in 515 gear. Heroic twins has lots of cleave opportunities that you should be taking advantage of (any extra damage on suen is desirable to make the final phase easier). Plus you can farm the stupid little adds for embers, at least in phase 1. You're right about iron quon though, there are multi dot opportunities but nothing really huge. How long the last phase ends depends on how good your raid is. If everything dies fast like it should you only have time for one shadowburn cleave with cooldowns. As affliction hero + dark soul multi dot on everything is pretty nice, while focusing down whatever dog you guys do

[sasofrass]

FnB incinerate spam is dumb on anything other than trash and heroic durumu walls. Anything else the proper way to AoE is to put immolate on everything (with fnb of course), rain of fire, and chaos bolt spam the targets that need to die. Right? Do we have enough embers on ptr to do that?

Not really. The change to rain of fire does give it value to use on 3 targets (I don't see much result on 2 targets), but no where near what it is like on live. On 3 targets on live I can nearly use chaos bolt as a filler, where as on PTR I have to cast many incinerates. Big DPS loss.

Don't forget too that with the new havoc glyph we can get 2 double chaos bolt cleaves.

It will be a situational glyph, as it does add 35 seconds to havoc (meaning if you always have 2 targets up it'd technically be a dps loss if you used it on cooldown.)

[Deleted]

It'd be nice to see GoSac return to how it used to be back when, giving you different passive effects based on your demon. Though I guess part of that is now in the Command Demon thing.

It was quite fun having %hp reg and using life tap while questing/farming for example.

On that note I still think Cata Warlock is closer to how it should've been in the long run. Most of the rework never sat right with me.

[Angslan]

Had 4 warlocks on latest test, heroic Protectors. We were all in the top 5 every pull, by a large margin usually. Affliction obviously.

Had the same result, warlocks did really well on protectors, did good on dark shaman testing, just got done with nazgrim testing and tbh affy was fairly weak compared to other multidot classes. It almost felt that something wasnt working right. Could also be that affy cant really pad the damage on the adds in the beginning.

[Woz]

Had the same result, warlocks did really well on protectors, did good on dark shaman testing, just got done with nazgrim testing and tbh affy was fairly weak compared to other multidot classes. It almost felt that something wasnt working right. Could also be that affy cant really pad the damage on the adds in the beginning.

I feel like you were doing that fight wrong if you couldn't do as well as the other multidotters and even just overtake them in a very strong manner at the start. If you managed Agony well on those superbuffed HP adds you would have had very different results than what you experienced. Just my opinion on how the fight felt for me as Aff.

[rijn dael]

Really hating oceanic timezone vs ptr test times right now :/
Only managed to test out flex over the weekends - which sucks both at ptr prep for raids, and being unable to test raid scenario with 550 ilvl (rather than 510/20 scaled).

[Deleted]

New build up, no lock changes, we should be getting addressed in the next build (or next 2 at the latest) so if you have something you wanna get to GC you may try VERY hard now we probably wont have much time to get anything changed that he doesnt know about in the next 72 hrs.

[Cebel]

breaking news: destro is a shit spec, get over it, can we talk about anything other than destro being shit? jesus this thread has degraded into the biggest whinefest in 2013.... whining incessantly about it here isnt going to get it changed. Your best shot is to give GC what he wants, and thats logs from PTR tests.... so go do fucking PTR tests and show him.

[Deleted]

Cebel go take your period elsewhere, the fact destro is undertuned is the biggest problem warlocks have right now, so ye its a topic for discussion.


Infracted for flaming.

[PickleballAce]

Still looking at Destro. That's the one we're keeping an eye on.

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...46671227305984

[Deleted]

Well obviously the only thing that is actually useful to give to the devs is PTR logs. They are aware destro might be too low, and asked specifically to provide logs if you think it's underpowered.

I wish mods would have allowed discussion about 5.4 to be more than one thread, because so many good posts get lost in the sea of groundless QQ about destruction.

Question: how does Nightfall behave exactly? Is it still proccing off MG instances of Corruption? What if you channeled on a Corruption that is not the latest you applied?

[Destroxo]

Hey guys, couldn't find the information anywhere else.

In regards to the T-16 4 set bonus for Demonology..

A) Does it proc chaos wave in meta? Is this intended?

B) Theoretically if you could get a lucky proc with a hand of guldan (in both meta and regular form (if intended in meta)) and you were already at a buffed 2 stack of shadowflame, would this skyrocket our dps?

Example:

HoG 1:
- 1 shadowflame stack
<Pause>
HoG 2:
- 2 shadowflame stacks
HoG3 T16 4 set proc:
-3 shadowflame stacks

Depending on how many HoG procs off our 4 set after our initial 2 HoG's, how many procs after these 2 would be required to maintain the stacks up until our first HoG was off CD?

Can't do the math, currently at work.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, it seems the 4 set could either be "decent" or "rediculously amazing" dependant on if it will proc HoG and not Chaos wave in meta, and how many procs you can get after casting 2 HoG's

[Caides]

Hey guys, couldn't find the information anywhere else.

In regards to the T-16 4 set bonus for Demonology..

A) Does it proc chaos wave in meta? Is this intended?

B) Theoretically if you could get a lucky proc with a hand of guldan (in both meta and regular form (if intended in meta)) and you were already at a buffed 2 stack of shadowflame, would this skyrocket our dps?

Example:

HoG 1:
- 1 shadowflame stack
<Pause>
HoG 2:
- 2 shadowflame stacks
HoG3 T16 4 set proc:
-3 shadowflame stacks

Depending on how many HoG procs off our 4 set after our initial 2 HoG's, how many procs after these 2 would be required to maintain the stacks up until our first HoG was off CD?

Can't do the math, currently at work.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, it seems the 4 set could either be "decent" or "rediculously amazing" dependant on if it will proc HoG and not Chaos wave in meta, and how many procs you can get after casting 2 HoG's

A) It was an intended change in an earlier build to proc Chaos Wave in Meta. It was, however, using charges and fury for casting Chaos Wave when it procced. I haven't played Demo on the PTR for quite a while so I can't comment on if it's still working that way or not.

B) See A. HoG only procs from caster form.

HoG was also changed in a much earlier build to stop stacking to 3, unless it was re-implemented recently to stack to 3 again

[Destroxo]

A) It was an intended change in an earlier build to proc Chaos Wave in Meta. It was, however, using charges and fury for casting Chaos Wave when it procced. I haven't played Demo on the PTR for quite a while so I can't comment on if it's still working that way or not.

B) See A. HoG only procs from caster form.

HoG was also changed in a much earlier build to stop stacking to 3, unless it was re-implemented recently to stack to 3 again

Cheers for the info man.

I knew about the chaos wave fury bug at the moment, but after they fix this I am still trying to figure out if it will be worth aiming for the 4 peice or stick with 2 peice and fill in the rest.

[Devious009]

Got a question for those who tested the BBoY trinket, as affliction does "Channeling" MG stacks the int buff or do you have to spam MG to stack the buff from the trinket ?

[sasofrass]

Got a question for those who tested the BBoY trinket, as affliction does "Channeling" MG stacks the int buff or do you have to spam MG to stack the buff from the trinket ?

They changed the trinket to just stack every 1 second and now only lasts 10 seconds.