Your thoughts on tanks trying to do dps

[Snickerdoodlez]

I am a guild and raid leader for a top 1000 western 10 man guild. We got our H Lei Shen kill two weeks ago; US rank 250'ish.

I have been a guild leader for a couple years now and this is the first time I've really been conflicted about a subject. The last two tanks we recruited use dps trinkets, gem for dps, and focus on their dps. The first was a bear tank and the second is our current paladin tank.

The first major conflict was on H Lei Shen, where the paladin died several times by being crit for his entire health bar while sitting down. We talked about how to manage it on that fight specifically, but now we're in our first reclear and he has died a few times randomly. Some deaths were do to specific things, a few seemed like attrition deaths.

While the extra dps they both do is useful, the voice in the back of my head constantly says, "We will beat this boss with or without the extra dps and the loss of mitigation puts us at extra risk of tank death resulting in a wipe. Furthermore, I feel that it is unfair to the healers, simply putting more demand on them."

I am more concerned about the future than I am the present. ToT is done, but what about SoO, and after SoO? Do I curb stomp this behavior into oblivion, preaching mitigation and survival? Something in between? Manage it fight to fight? Or is the bonus dmg worth it? Opinions?

Key points of discussion are:
1) Use of DPS trinkets
2) Gemming for DPS
3) Persistant focus on personal dps

P.S. I know haste is amazing for paladins defensively.
P.S.S. I know sitting is being removed in SoO.

[Citykid]

well, no answer to your question though, but /sit will be removed in SoO, u will no longer gain vengeance on crits

[Deleted]

Using dps trinkets and gemming for dps and survivability are not mutually exclusive, that is the correct way to go.

Dieng from /sitting is just terrible play though, something you should shout at him for doing. There is nothing wrong with tanks going for more dps, but if they are repeatingly dieng from it, they should learn from that. I have used /sit for crits for a long time now and I have never ever died from it, if he is dieng from it then he is sitting when he shouldnt sit, simple as that. I would be furious at him if he died to that to be honest.

In SoO /sit no longer grants you more vengeance so you dont have to worry about that anymore.

Persistant focus on personal dps is great as long as it does not come at the cost of raid wipes, he should know his limits and max his dps while surviving. Surviving is still step one.

[Mistmonk]

I am a guild and raid leader for a top 1000 western 10 man guild. We got our H Lei Shen kill two weeks ago; US rank 250'ish.

I have been a guild leader for a couple years now and this is the first time I've really been conflicted about a subject. The last two tanks we recruited use dps trinkets, gem for dps, and focus on their dps. The first was a bear tank and the second is our current paladin tank.

The first major conflict was on H Lei Shen, where the paladin died several times by being crit for his entire health bar while sitting down. We talked about how to manage it on that fight specifically, but now we're in our first reclear and he has died a few times randomly. Some deaths were do to specific things, a few seemed like attrition deaths.

While the extra dps they both do is useful, the voice in the back of my head constantly says, "We will beat this boss with or without the extra dps and the loss of mitigation puts us at extra risk of tank death resulting in a wipe. Furthermore, I feel that it is unfair to the healers, simply putting more demand on them."

I am more concerned about the future than I am the present. ToT is done, but what about SoO, and after SoO? Do I curb stomp this behavior into oblivion, preaching mitigation and survival? Something in between? Manage it fight to fight? Or is the bonus dmg worth it? Opinions?

Key points of discussion are:
1) Use of DPS trinkets
2) Gemming for DPS
3) Persistant focus on personal dps

P.S. I know haste is amazing for paladins defensively.

You said he died several times by being crit for his entire health bar "while sitting down" I'm confused by this. He was sitting in the middle of an attempt? Also did he turn his back to the boss?

[ComputerNerd]

They are abusing a mechanism with actions completely contradictory to their role.
I really hope they can get rid of the vengeance mechanism completely at some point.

[Deleted]

The sole question is:
Would you have done it without the tanks ramping up their dps by Vengance-whoring?
If so you probably have an easier time if tanks focus on survival.

I had the same problem with my tank buddy. Monk tank in full crit. He does a shitload of dps but likes to die alot. But after all he does nearly double my dps which is nothing you can wipe of the table.

As long as there is no mechanic that prevents Vengeance-whoring and damage taken is still a non-issue some tanks will go for dps. Because...why not?

[nyxtyr]

Tanks been pushing dps mostly for threat since i raided in classic.

[ohshift]

Wow, back when I tanked, if a tank sat while being whacked by a boss on purpose, he'd be demonized in the entire server faster than you can say BAD.

[GoldNSilence]

I can understand tanks wanting to dps in LFG/LFR because most DPS don't know what the hell they're doing.

[blackblade]

You said he died several times by being crit for his entire health bar "while sitting down" I'm confused by this. He was sitting in the middle of an attempt? Also did he turn his back to the boss?

You have a 100% chance to be crit while sitting, regardless of crit resistance. It's been this way since vanilla.

[Deleted]

imo, a tank shuldent gem for dps or trying to dps, a real tank shuld try to survive..

but that is just imo.

[Barrun]

I think the key is getting your healers to be vocal about how they feel about it. My group had a similar issue and once I said something from a healing perspective the tanks understood, if its from a potentially envious dps they'll likely be less responsive. The use of dps trinkets seems acceptable if they aren't taking the dps trinkets from dps, and if they keep tanking trinkets for fights where they would be more beneficial. Gemming for dps during progression I think is a bad idea if your healers can't keep up, if you're hitting hard enrages then having tanks focus on dps is a good idea, but if healers are over-stressed because of it there should be no question that they should change. Vengeance whoring is a completely different issue, tanks need to be intelligent in how they go about doing it and it should be communicated with the healers, if they do stupid shit that has a high risk of death they need to stop and that's where as a raid leader you should put down your foot.

[Deleted]

I can understand tanks wanting to dps in LFG/LFR because most DPS don't know what the hell they're doing.

No. I do LFR in full dps because damage taken doesn't matter. So any tank not going to maximize his dps in LFR/LFG is to blame. Both modes can easily be done in full dps.

[MrHappy]

well there is so much mitigation you can have before diminishing returns that str /dps trinkets would benefit you more. I remember in icc tanks used DPS trinkets with STR for parry/damage because it was better than HP/being mana sponge. so it is all relevant.

[Banzubie]

Well a pally gemming haste or a monk gemming crit are both mitigation builds. But cheesing vengeance is stupid if your killing the raid and it will be fixed next patch.

[Deleted]

I play a monk tank, full crit build and I use my /sit macro a lot, but only if it's ok with the healers. For me it works out very well I get some extra dps and it's really rare that I die, if I die it's mostly because we decide to wipe the raid if something goes terribly wrong. In 10 mans it feels very good to be able to really contribute much on the damage part.

[Deleted]

If I recall correctly, the best stat for a guardian druid after hit cap is critical, since it increases its rage generation so the possibility to use his mitigation techniques.
The fact that a druid or a paladin focuses on some dps stats such as haste for pally or crit for druid is not so shocking (after of course they got enough stam to withstand hard hits).
If however your tanks do not use correctly their active mitigation techniques, then they misunderstand the basic role of tanking : staying alive, and you should remind them.

[Deleted]

Gemming and gearing for DPS stats is alot better for the majority of tanks due to alot of them keeping up a persistent active mitigation. Dodge,parry, block are not as important these days (still useful sure) but the ability to keep the righteous shield buff trumps it because damage can be slowed and predicted on the tank (no surprises) which is why haste is a strong stat for palas.

All that said, your pala tank is a tool.
Demote, kick, or as you say curb stomp his ass.

He should be focusing on staying alive, a tanks dps will not win you the fight, its more of a bonus once you're used to killing the bosses for faster full clears, if ya get me.

So yea curb stomp him to the fucking ground tbh, atm he is purposefully wiping your raid and for what? so he can turn to a dps and say ha i beat you? Fuck that guy.

[urasim]

imo, a tank shuldent gem for dps or trying to dps, a real tank shuld try to survive..

but that is just imo.

I have zero problems with tanks trying to increase their DPS as long as they don't start dying. Making the fight shorter is best for everyone.

[Inthislzon]

Been said before, but i'll reiterate just for the sake of it.

Haste (for paladins) and crit (for monks) blow dodge/parry out of the water so hard it's not even funny.

Also doing more damage is never a bad thing but dying trying to cheese vengeance...and more than once on the same boss... yeah, gkick him on the spot.