We really should get to kill Windrunner sometime

[Prokne]

Well, until the Blood Elf sent to Theramore stabbed everyone in the back by weakening the gates and letting the Horde spill into the city. Whoopsies. Neutrality intact, as far as Theramore is concerned.

Was he a Sunreaver or just a Silvermoon Blood Elf? Either way you have the leader of the Kirin Tor and the leader of a Dalaran faction fighting for the Alliance and one minor BE spy.

And it's pretty clear that Aethas Sunreaver is in on the whole thing with Garrosh. This wasn't a 'few' Sunreavers. When Lor'themar is giving his speech about how Jaina was in the wrong, he literally shifts uncomfortably. Because he KNOWS that he broke neutrality. He sided with the Horde.

They were talking about the Dalaran Massacre and the bell stealing incident. It seems that Aethas might have known something about it or he knows after the fact but before that encounter(as in he found out a Sunreaver did it after it happened but wasnt involved in planning it). You cant tell exactly what he did based on a little nervous shuffling. Still thats after neutrality was broken by the Alliance favoring factions in Dalaran. Not pointing out this double standard is just bad story writing but thats par for WoW.

[Ivion]

It's also worth mentioning that the Silver Covenant says very clearly "I've been waiting a long time for this" in several of their NPCs. So the Silver Covenant essentially used the political climate and facts they KNEW along with Vereesa were not factual as a excuse to commit genocide on their own people.


If I were Lor'themar, I'd probably ban all High Elves from the Sunwell as it's feasible their next effort would be to do what the Worgen try with Lordaeron. "Retake Silvermoon for the High Elves." War reparations should be forcing all High Elves to drink Fel and become Blood Elves.

The High Elves are 3% of the population now. They should be the ones to bend to their people, not the reverse.

Sorry that you're a tad outdated. Blood Elves don't do Fel that much anymore. Kind of made them red and arsewipes.

Oh, and typically speaking, the faction that made the correct call (in this case, NOT becoming Fel monkies and pining after Kael'thas), is the one who doesn't have to apologize at the end of the day.

Was he a Sunreaver or just a Silvermoon Blood Elf? Either way you have the leader of the Kirin Tor and the leader of a Dalaran faction fighting for the Alliance and one minor BE spy.




They were talking about the Dalaran Massacre and the bell stealing incident. It seems that Aethas might have known something about it or he knows after the fact but before that encounter. Still thats after neutrality was broken by the Alliance favoring factions in Dalaran. Not pointing out this double standard is just bad story writing but thats par for WoW.

He was a Sunreaver. He's the guy you save from Theramore in the Horde side scenario. And again, not fighting, protecting the Alliance to minimize loss of life and act as a deterrent. They never once attack a member of the Horde, all they do is strengthen gates, which arguably does just as much to protect the Horde as the Alliance, since after the Horde get in, they get thrashed.

And Aethas had to know exactly what was going on. The Sunreavers agreed to help the Horde spies use portals to get to Darnassus. It wasn't a few rogue mages, it's pretty clear that Aethas authorized it.

[foxHeart]

And surrender to an unknown fate for something you didnt do to people who want to kill you is not something most people see as reasonable.

Yeah, so the reasonable thing to do would be do pull of the swords and magic and fight to the death while completely ignorant to the reasons you're under suspicion when you could cooperate and potentially resolve things peacefully. Totally reasonable.

[The Penguin]

Her husband should not have been in Theramore in the first place. If he had maintained the neutrality of Dalaran and the Kirin Tor he would still be alive. And surrender to an unknown fate for something you didnt do to people who want to kill you is not something most people see as reasonable. In a just society you dont round up or kill a whole group of people to find one criminal.

It's also worth mentioning that the Silver Covenant says very clearly "I've been waiting a long time for this" in several of their NPCs. So the Silver Covenant essentially used the political climate and facts they KNEW along with Vereesa were not factual as a excuse to commit genocide. If I were Lor'themar, I'd probably ban all High Elves from the Sunwell as it's feasible their next effort would be to do what the Worgen try with Lordaeron. "Retake Silvermoon for the High Elves." War reparations should be forcing all High Elves to drink Fel and become Blood Elves.

The High Elves are 3% of the population now. They should be the ones to bend to their people, not the reverse.

Again, the only Sunreavers physically harmed were the ones who resisted arrest and fought back. The others were simply sent to the Violet Hold until the entire issue could be sorted out.

Not true. Jaina did not have the authority to do what she did. Remember many of the Elves of Dalaran that were Sunreavers had lived there far, far longer than Jaina had lived. Imagine a upstart 30 year old telling someone who's lived in Dalaran 200+ years. "Your outta here." because of your Eye color. There are also genocidal kinsfolk who want to kill you because of the eye-color and your decision to support your people over.. a fringe minority. What she did do was abuse her skill as a Mage to force Aethas to submit when she had 0 proof, and she knew it damn well. That was why when Aethas said so she got so bitchy. What she did was power-grab.

Kalec or Modera should of poly-morphed her and said. "Calm down Proudmoore, lets figure this out." The same way she forced us to wait it out when Varian wanted to gut Sylvanas. That was more justified than what she did at Dalaran.

She also is someone who KILLED a Alliance leader. IE: Her own father, for the Horde. She should NEVER of become the leader of the Kirin Tor, that's just bad writing.


I will accede that Theramore was bad, but Aethas had nothing to do with it. The issue is 1-2 elves Garrosh managed to get to defy their own racial leader. Those people and Garrosh were the issue, not the entirety of the Elven Race. Jaina did not care however. She decided to go Garithos / Garrosh mode herself. Her story ended with Arthas. Let Garrosh kill her and Thrall go Taritha ragemode on Garrosh. All is restored.

[Prokne]

Yeah, so the reasonable thing to do would be do pull of the swords and magic and fight to the death while completely ignorant to the reasons you're under suspicion when you could cooperate and potentially resolve things peacefully. Totally reasonable.

When Vereesa and her Silver Covenant obviously want to kill you and are just looking for an excuse you cant really trust them to be fair after you surrender to them. Its better to fight and maybe survive than to just give up and hope they dont kill you.

[Ivion]

Not true. Jaina did not have the authority to do what she did. Rather what she did do was abuse her skill as a Mage to force Aethas to surrender. Yes Theramore was bad, but Aethas had nothing to do with it. The issue is 1-2 elves Garrosh managed to get to defy their own racial leader. Those people and Garrosh were the issue, not the entirety of the Elven Race. Jaina did not care however. She decided to go Garithos / Garrosh mode herself. She would of deserved, and still deserves to be executed and removed from her post as well.

I adore the ignorance. I really do. You think this had anything to do with Theramore? Jaina had forgiven Aethas, allowed him to retain his place in the Council of 6 and allow the Sunreavers to remain in Dalaran. When you first start the Operation Shieldwall questchain for the Alliance, she rebuffs your request for aid, saying that she's committed to that neutrality. She's committed to allowing both Horde and Alliance stay in Dalaran, as a community.
And then half of that community used her lenience to stab her in the back and deliver into the hands of a warmonger, something that could've caused destruction on a grand scale. Again. And instead of "Garithos/Garroshing" out, she instead chooses to imprison any who willingly surrender, when she could easily obliterate them. She shows restraint of a remarkable level. Furthermore, she doesn't declare war on "Elves in general". Her beef is with the Sunreavers, not Silvermoon. It's really too bad Silvermoon had to get everything muddled by absorbing the Sunreavers into the Magister caste.

[rat]

It's probably worth mentioning that the blood elves/Sunreavers did kinda have the threat of Garrosh, "do this or I'll kill you," looming over the whole situation. Let's stop pretending the entire Theramore thing was 100% blood elves. I sincerely doubt any of them actually wanted to comply.

[Faroth]

No, not THAT Windrunner, Lich Queen fans, I'm talking about the evil living Windrunner. Vereesa Windrunner. I'm certain that out of everyone still alive in Warcraft, no-one is so selfish and generally bitchy as Vereesa Windrunner. She's one of the least sympathetic characters I've ever seen. Somehow, both of her sisters kinda survived the Scourge attack, which is more than nearly every other elf who had relatives in Silvermoon. Then her husband died. What a shame. Hell, it was Jaina's home, and Jaina took that better than Vereesa did. Being antagonistic to the Horde is fine, they did kill her mary-sue of a husband. But that's not all. Even after Jaina gets really angry at the Sunreavers, Jaina has enough sense to just remove the Sunreavers. No, Vereesa just commands you to outright slaughter them. Slaughter those in the enclave who don't know what's going on. Kill those in the streets. Murder those cowering in the sewers. Kill their smiths and workers, and cripple their mounts so none can escape.

It's the shining glorious victory the Alliance was promised...you didn't think it was an awesome moment to be greatly proud of?

Like, what the hell? I mean, Garrosh mostly just kicks the lesser races out of Orgrimmar. He doesn't freaking murder them as they eat.

Don't read the books, huh?

Sylvanas is trapped in a state of undeath, forced to do unspeakable things under Arthas' control, cheated out of her revenge, and she's still more chill than Veressa.

Minus the whole "kill every living thing on the planet and make them all Forsaken subservient to MY will" thing she's going towards.

Actually, though, Vereesa is one of the more realistic and believable characters. Most are more ridiculously dismissive about everything and ignore what's done to just forgive and forget a day after it happened.

[Thirteen]

As much as I'd like to see Rommath hurl a fireball in her face, it would be pretty dark to make those filthy half-blood whelps of hers orphans.

Alas, maybe Auntie Sylvanas can adopt them...

Inferno Blast spreads fire DoTs. That should take care of em.

[Ivion]

Its a magical prison filled with the worst kind of evil people, where the elves were held once before after being betrayed by the Alliance. Jaina didnt have to go batshit and start killing people or locking them down, she could have easily held a council meeting, the same council that Aethas is a part of, if 5 powerful mages cant discern what happened then they dont deserve to, frankly. And if she was trying to find the culprits then she wasnt going to find them still in Dalaran after what ide assume would be a day or more.

The one human was a neutral ambassador for Dalaran, and at the same time, a powerful and high ranking, (supposedly) rational, official in the Alliance, who acted in the complete wrong. The Alliance wouldnt have benefitted the BE's anymore than the Horde are right now, its just out of necessity, so theres no reason to leave the alliance they are already in. And tbh, they would probably be in a worse place if they had. Garrosh wouldnt take an insult like that lightly, he would have tried (and maybe succeeded) in trashing Silvermoon and stealing all their magical artifacts for use in his army. Whereas if the Alliance assult Silvermoon, they are cutting off the HE's access to the Sunwell. Directly damaging their own people, not that I imagine they would care anyway. They dont seem to be that accomodating to the HE's.

Anyway, its late so, rebut if you want, or we can agree to disagree.

We don't really know the state of the Violet Hold since we... kinda went in there and killed a large portion of it. Jaina's actions weren't rationale, but they're beyond understandable. She's put everything on the line, trying to stay neutral despite everything that happened, then this. This treacherous stab in the back. It's the final straw and it's clear that the Horde in general (sans Baine to her,) can't be trusted. She's the only one yelling for neutrality and it's clearly not working. So it's time to try something that does work. And even then, she manages to be more merciful than most characters would be.

But like you said, agree to disagree.

It's probably worth mentioning that the blood elves/Sunreavers did kinda have the threat of Garrosh, "do this or I'll kill you," looming over the whole situation. Let's stop pretending the entire Theramore thing was 100% blood elves. I sincerely doubt any of them actually wanted to comply.

Which doesn't really matter in the scope of whether or not Vereesa and Jaina are justified. Instead, it just shows that everyone in this situation loses out.

[Shadowspire]

Ok soooo I can officially say the windrunner sisters are all bitches and clearly have issues with expressing feelings in a healthy way. I mean look at the things they done.
Alleria-
Has emotional depression sex with turylon the first night of like half her family.
Gives birth but clearly in secret and leaves as a would be orphan, plus never tells turylon...until they are missing anyway.
Goes on a Orc killing spree all the way until the events of the first dark portal closing and only comes to her sense after fighting her husband/lover.
Sylvannas-
First ,from what I can see. Tries to play it cool after we(players) bring her a necklace from her sister,but basically breaks downs and sings.
Becomes a bloodlusting leader that takes the undead saying "We will slaughter anyone who gets in our way".
Has forsaken create the equivalent of mustard gas/napalm (blood elvs get the glory of making nukes).
Disobeys orders to win battles, using the valkry and plaguebombs.
And finally Varessa-
Becomes a worse racist then garithos and gives orders to kill blood elves on sight in dalaran
Has a odd hate toward lothremar before Theramore.
Still tries to fight on the isle of thunder even after jaina calls for a cease fire.

The cause of all of these things and that they all have in common

Loss of important things.
All lost large parts family mostly.
Sylvannas lost her life to a prince her people believed had a truce and then was ordered to slaughter her own ppl she swore to protect.
Varessa lost het husband and probably some friends due to blood elves recreating their nuke( yes they had previously been working nukes before we just sabotaged it BAVK in terrokar...which brings the question are the engineers that originally made the first 2 nukes for keal still alive.)and gives it to garrosh.

In conclusion.
All three have their reasons for becoming super kill hungry/heartless/ or selfish, but they still try and do what is best for those they serve, neither really deserves to be. Killed. Buuuuuuut the two remaining sisters need someone like turylon was to Algeria and knock sense back into them before shit gets out of hand,


This is only my opinion based off from events I remember.

[Deleted]

To hell with all elves, they are a cancer upon Azeroth as a whole. They've been f*cking up the world more than any other Azerothian race.

[Jerakal]

Real? You think Vareesa is worse than her obviously evil Undead sister? OP, you are a whole mess of misguided.

Sylvanas is full fucking crazy. She's a monster that wants to keep her undead army growing and will eventually become an even greater menace than Garrosh is now. The only reason people have stopped talking about putting the she-witch to death lately is because Garrosh has gone full kilohitler lately.

I'm actually really pissed that we haven't gotten the chance to avenge Rhonin yet and lynch that fancy blood elf fuck that sold out the Kirin Tor.

[Xilurm]

Guys guys, listen. The Blood Elves, stopped being her people the moment they joined the Horde. They are nothing more than traitors and monsters now. Just like every other Horde race. Well except maybe the Tauren, atleast until they remain passive.

[Darth-Piekus]

Oh what's this. All the butthurt fanboys of Sylvannas and Garrosh can't stand the fact that a leader of yet one more neutral faction wants to destroy the Horde? I mean you have become predictable. Here's how I see it. During Cataclysm the Horde was unstoppable and didn't answer to anyone. Suddenly in MOP some neutral factions who are many decided to pick a side and it seems you don't like it. You hated Wrathion, Taran Zhu, Vereesa, Jaina and god knows how many more just because they decided to take action and say that we cannot tolerate you anymore. You played a game and now that you are losing you don't like it. I warned you from Cataclysm. The Horde would go down that dark path and eventually the whole world would unite against it. Because most of those factions are created by older former Alliance factions and in the end it's their world which fought so hard to protect and they wouldn't let some spoiled brat of a Hellscream and his monsters take it without a fight. That is how I see it.

[Combatbutler]

Guys guys, listen. The Blood Elves, stopped being her people the moment they joined the Horde.

The blood elves are still her people, she can deny it all day long if she wants to, but it will never change the fact that they are still her people.

They are nothing more than traitors and monsters now. Just like every other Horde race. Well except maybe the Tauren, atleast until they remain passive.

You want to hold them responsible for joining the only faction, that was actually willing to help them in their darkest hour? The elves were betrayed by the Alliance and were still willing to overlook it, until the ironforge ambassador spied on them and night elves attacked them in the Ghostlands.

The Tauren are hardly passive, they blow up a dwarven settlement in the southern Barrens and fight the Alliance just like any other horde race.

snip

The Windrunner sisters are all nuts, the best thing for Azeroth would be to make certain they all die, including their wretched offspring. Half elves, disgusting.

[Wyrt]

Hey, remember that one time the blood elves forcibly exiled the high elves? Yeah, Vereesa remembers that. High elves hate the blood elves with good reason.

On that note, the alliance should demand Lor'themar's head for doing that.

You want to hold them responsible for joining the only faction, that was actually willing to help them in their darkest hour?

Who saved the blood elves? Oh, that's right, the draenei did.

[Combatbutler]

Hey, remember that one time the blood elves forcibly exiled the high elves? Yeah, Vereesa remembers that. High elves hate the blood elves with good reason.

On that note, the alliance should demand Lor'themar's head for doing that.

The high elves were not part of the Alliance at the time and if the high elves wouldn't have been so stubborn and accepted, what was necessary to ensure the survival of their kingdom, but they stubbornly refused and endagered them all, as such they were exiled.

Who saved the blood elves? Oh, that's right, the draenei did.

Because they are such bleading hearts,right? The Draenei caring for the well being of younger races, like the ones that died because they lured the burning egion to their worlds. They saved the blood elves because they will be a part of their army of the light, not because they are such good people.

[Haytham]

Hey, remember that one time the blood elves forcibly exiled the high elves? Yeah, Vereesa remembers that. High elves hate the blood elves with good reason.

On that note, the alliance should demand Lor'themar's head for doing that.




Who saved the blood elves? Oh, that's right, the draenei did.

The blood elves that accepted the use of Fel magic were the majority. The high elves that refused to use it,were the traitors to their own nation.

I'm surprised they BE only let them leave and not did not punish them more.If anything Lor'themar was merciful towards Veressa and her traitor high elves.

The Draenei did not save any blood elves,they just helped with the rebirth of the sunwell. The BE can continue to live of fel magic with no issues.

[Wildberry]

Real? You think Vareesa is worse than her obviously evil Undead sister? OP, you are a whole mess of misguided.

Sylvanas is full fucking crazy. She's a monster that wants to keep her undead army growing and will eventually become an even greater menace than Garrosh is now. The only reason people have stopped talking about putting the she-witch to death lately is because Garrosh has gone full kilohitler lately.

I'm actually really pissed that we haven't gotten the chance to avenge Rhonin yet and lynch that fancy blood elf fuck that sold out the Kirin Tor.

Meh, "They are no longer part of MY Europe"-Jokes aside, Sylvanas is just as bad as Garrosh, if not worse, she's just a little more subtle, hopefully she gets what's coming to her and the Forsaken get an interesting leader, perhaps? As far as Rhonin though...avenged? Really? He deserves to rot in a pit, forgotten, just like all of the other characters Knaak has created.