World of Draenor: Welcome the Demon Hunter

[Teriz]

Ok it is clear you don't understand what represent means.

As far as you comments around warlocks and demon hunters...you are again assuming. You believe that you opinions mirror that of Blizzard, you actually have no clue. Blizzard pulled back on the whole Dark Apothesis glyph during beta and the developer who moved aggressively forward on that front was reprimanded/fired/reassigned. We don't know why but maybe he crossed a line that impacted future Blizzard plans.

That is the point Teriz. Two things you cannot refute...

A. Blizzard can do and create anything they feel is required and/or fun for the game.
B. No one on this forum knows anything of substance at this point.

You have your facts mixed up.

We KNOW why that developer was fired. He told us why he was fired on these forums. He publicly said some disparaging remarks about the Blizzard development team, and he was let go. It had little to do with the design of the Warlock class going into MoP.

Additionally, the notion that MoP's Warlock design was just a gigantic mistake constructed by a crazed lone developer is FALSE. Its a known fact that any major class design change at Blizzard is done via committee, and GC is a part of that. So any major changes that took place to Demonology in this expansion was AGREED UPON by the entire Warlock design team, not that single developer who got fired.

Blizzard pulled back on the glyph because they didn't want Warlocks to be able to tank by switching glyphs. The glyph itself remained in the game, and has been getting tweaks throughout the expansion. Furthermore, the glyph isn't the main thing that links Demonology to Demon Hunters. Metamorphosis and Demonic Fury is the main thing that kills any hope of a Demon Hunter class, and its an integral part of the Demonology spec. The model for Metamorphosis is Illidan. Via Metamorphosis you get Immolation Aura. You build up demonic fury and transform into a demon for several seconds, unleashing enhanced demonic attacks. That's exactly how most people would envision a DH resource system to work, and Warlocks have it.

Also there was the Betrayer Armor, which was armor linked directly to Illidan, and we had the beta Warlock talent "Illidan's Guile", which was pulled before the end of beta, but has a good chance of turning up again in the future.

I find it the height of hypocrisy that you ignore all of this evidence, yet you try to link up Engineering with a possible technology class on the flimsiest of connections.

[Echocho]

If there is a new class a mail wearing class makes sense since there are only 2 atm. It could possibly be a pure dps class with one bow/gun specc, one melee specc (dw?) and one caster specc. If it is indeed the demon hunter it will probably not be anything like the D3 one.

[Teriz]

Warlocks are not "more powerful than demon hunters". They do appear to be full casters who seem to have more powerful magics. But that's like saying a warlock is more powerful than a rogue, because the rogue only has a couple spells, and they need weapons to get anything out of them. Demon Hunters have a martial art and their magics.

Warlocks learned metamorphosis just by watching Illidan. Most of Illidan's students could never reach that level of power. Furthermore, Illidan needed the skull of Gul'dan to maximize his demonic powers, Warlocks do it by default. In short, Warlocks at this point in WoW are about as powerful as Illidan was at Black Temple. Illidan is the most powerful DH on record, and NONE of his disciples even came close to his level of power.

If we bring a Demon Hunter class into the game, there's no way they could have as much control over demonic magic as Warlocks because it cause the classes to clash too much. They won't be able to control demons, and they definitely can't manipulate Metamorphosis to the extent that Warlocks can.

In short, demonic magic powers Demon Hunters. Warlocks are more powerful than Demon Hunters in the realm of demonic magic, thus Warlocks are more powerful than Demon Hunters.

Sorry, just the facts.

Likely for the same reason all the hero class powers were- there's obviously the intention of them being in the game, and if they didn't have that class to put it on, they put it on another.

If Blizzard's intention was to bring them into the game, why are they constantly giving Demon Hunter attributes to Warlocks?

[kensim]

Teriz that doesn't change the fact that Blizzard pulled back on the dark Apothesis direction does it?

Also wouldn't a demon hunter be exceptionally good at killing a demonology warlock?

Lastly Teriz I don't see a single one of Illidan's abilities in the warlock set.

[Yig]

Basically it's just a constant circle of opinions here, which is fun, until the guy who insists on telling you his educated guesses somehow refute yours keeps repeating himself. Why a holy melee fighter like a paladin can coexist with a priest but a new demonic melee fighter can't coexist with a warlock seems to hinge on the fact that it would make warlock's jealous. Such spurious and arbitrary reasoning. And now (lol) they aren't as "powerful" as a warlock so they can't exist. How does that same logic work when you compare paladins to priests?

How many times can it be said and ignored that deathknights from WC3 ability wise were redundant in WOW beyond their visual aesthetic and theme. They were given brand new abilities and resource mechanics to make them less redundant. For some reason they can't do that for demon hunters apparently according to some people because it would (lol) confuse prospective hunters and make warlocks jealous. /facepalm

Personally I wish demon hunters never even had the ability to use metamorphosis, they could only do it in the first place because they were stuck using Illidan as a template as a hero unit, but it makes no sense lore wise at all. Illidan could not do it at all until the events of WC3 which took place in the last decade of WOW's present timeline, but then we see this changed in the Well of Eternity 5 man where he did it temporarily while fighting Manneroth in the altered timeline.

Apparently Illidan either trained some demon hunters somewhere before he was imprisoned or some intrepid demon hating night elves decided to emulate him in some really weird and radical ways, which both seem a bit shaky to me. It's a pity Richard Knaack messed this up more by having all of Illidan's abilities just shoved on him by Sargeras, suddenly there are no rituals around the process at all or traditions behind the vestments. It's just a head ache of contradictions waiting to be cleared up with further fleshed out lore and possibly some more retcons.

One thing is for sure, it's a fucking crime if demon hunters never see the light of day because some short sighted developers thought it would be a nice bone to throw demon hunter fans to allow Warlocks to use metamorphosis.

[Teriz]

Teriz that doesn't change the fact that Blizzard pulled back on the dark Apothesis direction does it?

That's pretty irrelevant considering that they went full steam ahead with making metamorphosis a major part of Demonology.

Also wouldn't a demon hunter be exceptionally good at killing a demonology warlock?

Doubtful, since Warlocks do everything Demon Hunters do, but better.

Lastly Teriz I don't see a single one of Illidan's abilities in the warlock set.

Metamorphosis and Immolation Aura. Warlocks almost got Illidan's Guile.

It would be silly to believe that Warlocks won't be getting more of Illidan's abilities in future installments.

[Deleted]

Warlocks learned metamorphosis just by watching Illidan. Most of Illidan's students could never reach that level of power. Furthermore, Illidan needed the skull of Gul'dan to maximize his demonic powers, Warlocks do it by default. In short, Warlocks at this point in WoW are about as powerful as Illidan was at Black Temple. Illidan is the most powerful DH on record, and NONE of his disciples even came close to his level of power.

If we bring a Demon Hunter class into the game, there's no way they could have as much control over demonic magic as Warlocks because it cause the classes to clash too much. They won't be able to control demons, and they definitely can't manipulate Metamorphosis to the extent that Warlocks can.

In short, demonic magic powers Demon Hunters. Warlocks are more powerful than Demon Hunters in the realm of demonic magic, thus Warlocks are more powerful than Demon Hunters.

Sorry, just the facts.



If Blizzard's intention was to bring them into the game, why are they constantly giving Demon Hunter attributes to Warlocks?

I was going to ask for sources and make a long post about how much you just tried to pass off your imagination as fact but I cba. Blizzard can and will do whatever they want despite previous decisions but most likely they will go with the option that produces most money and fan appeal. Demon hunters would produce both in very large amounts.

[Deleted]

I can't understand how people can say a design decision like this is unlikely. Whether you're talking about races, classes, or number of levels; new is new, you don't really have a lot to go on to determine likelihood.

I'd love to hear why you think it's unlikely though.

On the contrary, I do have something to go on to. No 2 consecutive expansions added 2 new classes. Blizzard do like repetition, but meaningful repetition. They will wait until we are begging for a new class, WoD is not that time. Monks are still quite fresh. They said numerous times they are going to reduce the skill bloat, I'm sure they don't want to start a tradition of 1 class each expansion thus a class bloat. Demon hunters? No. Their niche is already taken > see Warlocks.

Again, this is my opinion only you are welcome to disagree.

[Yig]

Demon hunters no more take the niche warlocks fill than warlocks take the niche mages fill or paladins take the niche priests fill.

They are predominantly melee fighters with auras and magic tricks up their sleeves. Just as a paladin is basically a warrior with priest tricks, a demon hunter would be a rogue/fury warrior with warlock tricks.

[Mesovr]

Warlocks at this point in WoW are about as powerful as Illidan was at Black Temple. Illidan is the most powerful DH on record, and NONE of his disciples even came close to his level of power.

Just because they can mimic what he can do does not make them more powerful.

[Teriz]

Demon hunters no more take the niche warlocks fill than warlocks take the niche mages fill or paladins take the niche priests fill.

They are predominantly melee fighters with auras and magic tricks up their sleeves. Just as a paladin is basically a warrior with priest tricks, a demon hunter would be a rogue/fury warrior with warlock tricks.

Or a Demonology Warlock with a melee option.

If everyone here acknowledges that Warlocks will be getting MORE Demon Hunter and Illidan abilities in future expansions, what possible argument is there for a Demon Hunter stand alone class?

[TheLimonTree]

Nothing else says outland/draenor, burning legion than illidan/demon hunter.

Bring it on.

A DW 1h crossbow spec, dw 1h warglaive spec, some kind of demon form healing spec using demonic energies.

yes yes please.

Anyone else post your demon hunter desires.

Why do so many people keep confusing Diablo 3 demon hunters with WoW demon hunters? The whole dw crossbow thing is only from diablo.

[Kathranis]

Allow me to preface this by saying that I would prefer demon hunter be its own hero class with three unique specs, unique tier gear, unique mechanics, class hub, quests, etc.

They could also easily be given a unique playstyle and abilities while sharing traits of both the warlock and rogue class, the same way that paladins and death knights have priest and necromancer traits along with warrior traits.

However, I certainly don't think that precludes the possibility of it instead being rolled into the warlock class.

Even with Dark Apotheosis, it is clear that the Warlock does not become a Melee fighter, they're ranged casters with defensive abilities and a taunt.

Void Ray, Carrion Swarm, and Immolation Aura all being melee-range abilities, Demonic Slash being a short-distance ranged attack, and Demonic Leap being a gap-closer all sort of counter that argument. Dark Apotheosis is meant to be used at melee range, plain and simple.

Incidentally, you can also spec into Soul Link and Grimoire of Sacrifice, which lets you kill your demonic minion to buff yourself and gain access to one of its abilities (Felguard gives you Pursuit, Voidwalker gives you Shadow Bulwark, etc.), which makes the class feel even more like a Demon Hunter.

Besides, Warlock 4th spec discussion has nothing to do with Demon Hunters. They aren't the same class, you're the only one who thinks so.

That's absolutely not true. Demon Hunters being a 4th warlock spec has been widely debated since druids got their Guardian spec and the Glyph of Demon Hunting (Dark Apotheosis) was implemented.


The fact remains that building the Glyph of Demon Hunting out into a full Demon Hunting spec (either tank or melee DPS) would not only be viable, but extremely easy. It would simply be a matter of swapping out a few more of the Demonology spec abilities for some new ones. From there, all they'd have to do is open up the class to night elves and introduce some cloth blindfolds and glaive-shaped spellblades.

The biggest issue holding the concept back relates specifically to the idea of it being a tanking spec, and that's the fact that cloth doesn't have any tanking itemization and Blizzard almost certainly doesn't want to create a new item role or have any tanks rolling on caster or healer cloth gear. Of course, there are all sorts of solutions to that issue, as well.


Now, if you look at the lore -- and there is very little verifiably canon demon hunter lore, as most of it comes from the tabletop RPGs -- Illidan, the first and foremost Demon Hunter, was previously a mage. He also relied heavily upon ranged casting both in WC3 and BC.

If you do look at the tabletop RPGs, there's a whole lot of leeway because the RPGs used multiclassing, and Demon Hunter was a Prestige Class that required you to have at least a few levels as a caster class before you could even become one (likewise, the Metamorphosis ability temporarily improved your casting abilities). And of course, the RPG stated that any character could become a Demon Hunter, so long as their alignment was chaotic and they found a master. They don't really get much in the way of melee abilities in the RPGs, its more about augmenting their other class abilities.

And for what it's worth, in WC3, Metamorphosis transformed Demon Hunters into ranged AoE damage dealers.

[kensim]

That's pretty irrelevant considering that they went full steam ahead with making metamorphosis a major part of Demonology.



Doubtful, since Warlocks do everything Demon Hunters do, but better.



Metamorphosis and Immolation Aura. Warlocks almost got Illidan's Guile.

It would be silly to believe that Warlocks won't be getting more of Illidan's abilities in future installments.

Warlocks use demonic abilities like demons, demon hunters use many of those same weapons to fight back and overcome. Fighting a warlock is in the wheel house of a demon hunter you silly git!

With regards to Illidan you are ignorant...

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=22917#abilities

[Teriz]

With regards to Illidan you are ignorant...

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=22917#abilities

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=104379

And Warlocks learned Meta from Illidan.

[Echocho]

The existance of two demonology speccs within two different classes is the same exact thing as there being holy speccs for paladins and priest or restoration for druids and shamans. They will probably not even be remotely the same.

[Talen]

Teriz that doesn't change the fact that Blizzard pulled back on the dark Apothesis direction does it?

According to what Blizz and GC has said....they wnat the tanky feel back. They tried to get the Warlock to be as god a tank as an Arms warrior with shield. But they weren't prepared to spend time redesigning the tank role around active tanking nor were they prepared to balance an entire role around a Glyph.

There is a difference between pulling back because they didn't have the time to balance the role they wanted and pulling back because they decided against Warlock tanking entirely.

EJL

[Teriz]

The existance of two demonology speccs within two different classes is the same exact thing as there being holy speccs for paladins and priest or restoration for druids and shamans. They will probably not even be remotely the same.

I don't see how that is possible when the defining characteristic of Demon Hunters was a melee fighter that could turn itself into a demon. Without that, Demon Hunters are just magic using melee no different than Enhancement Shaman or Death Knights. They bring nothing unique to the class lineup, and if anything makes the class lineup redundant.

[kensim]

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=104379

And Warlocks learned Meta from Illidan.

So we are back to the potential of one or two shared/similar ability by your own admission? One that would be most likely a cooldown (or only used during) and not a main rotational ability? You think that would prevent Blizzard in doing what it wants? Really?

Btw I am not against a 4th spec for Warlock, however I don't think Warlocks prevent a dedicate demon hunter class. I would think something like Engineering would be more of a block to something like tinkerer than warlock to demon hunter.

Regardless as usual Teriz you are so bias that it taints everything you say rendering your contributions worthless and meaningless.

[Wildmoon]

I don't see how that is possible when the defining characteristic of Demon Hunters was a melee fighter that could turn itself into a demon. Without that, Demon Hunters are just magic using melee no different than Enhancement Shaman or Death Knights. They bring nothing unique to the class lineup, and if anything makes the class lineup redundant.

If you simplify things like that there's no way you could bring something unique to the class lineup anymore except new role like support.