Current raiding is fine, the difficulty level of 5 mans/questing/trades are bad

[Roamingstorm]

So raiding is more or less ok, could use some tweaks but I am not going to bitch about that right now.

Disregard raiding for a moment, the other meat of the game is spoiled. 5 mans are ridiculously easy, need to tuned harder for sure. Same with questing. Both offer no challenge at all and it really puts me off. Trades and economy is not great either. Some clear improvements would be nice.

I would like if Blizzard would commit to:

1. Upping difficulty level in 5 man dungeons, bring back CC as well, meaning you have to use it to get through it.

2. I do not like the way talents are done, ok there, I said it. I miss trees and if you cant bring those back try something better than the current.

3. Threat needs to be a thing again.

4. The classes are all the same now. Was defined roles so bad before? I say that was awesome.

You know what is funny? Blizz plans to lower dps numbers and that in itself might be something I might re-sub for. That and harder quest/5 man content.

1. They attempted at making CC a thing again in Cata and what tended to happen most of the time is people would run full force into a wall, or even better break CCs because all we knew was kill all the things.

2. I'm fine with the old talent system being gone. I don't mind the current talents and I always felt the old ones were incredibly bloated. I would though like to see more options for tiers, instead of three.

3. Again, if I'm not mistaken they attempted to do this back in Cata and I recall being on my protection warrior and having a hard as hell time to actually hold agro, mainly because people always tend to go balls to the wall on anything.

4. There's only so much you can do in an MMO to keep things feeling different. Class wise it tends to be looks and abilities. Have to remember WoW keeps the "holy trinity" of tank, healer, damage. Casters are casters, tanks are tanks, healers are healers. Nearly all of the classes play similar. For instance rogue and enhancement shaman. They sit in melee and hit things, just they do it differently with different things. This can be said though with nearly any video game though.

To me dungeons should be fun and some what challenging. I think they got it right with MoP with how dungeons feel. Normal dungeons were semi difficult going in when you're a fresh 90, and heroics were a challenge if you ignored mechanics. Obviously now with it being the end of the expansion and people out gear the dungeons people burn through it, which is fine. Do have to remember we do have challenge modes if you're looking for something challenging.

[Deleted]

So raiding is more or less ok, could use some tweaks but I am not going to bitch about that right now.

Disregard raiding for a moment, the other meat of the game is spoiled. 5 mans are ridiculously easy, need to tuned harder for sure. Same with questing. Both offer no challenge at all and it really puts me off. Trades and economy is not great either. Some clear improvements would be nice.

I would like if Blizzard would commit to:

1. Upping difficulty level in 5 man dungeons, bring back CC as well, meaning you have to use it to get through it.

2. I do not like the way talents are done, ok there, I said it. I miss trees and if you cant bring those back try something better than the current.

3. Threat needs to be a thing again.

4. The classes are all the same now. Was defined roles so bad before? I say that was awesome.

You know what is funny? Blizz plans to lower dps numbers and that in itself might be something I might re-sub for. That and harder quest/5 man content.

1: Don't bring back CC, it doesn't make anything harder, it just makes it take more time.

2: I've played since vanilla and I LOVE the way talents work now because of how rediculously flexible it is.

3: No... Why?

[Tychus]

5 mans are ridiculously easy, need to tuned harder for sure. Same with questing. Both offer no challenge at all and it really puts me off.

Without normalization the concept of "difficulty" does not exist. No matter how ball-crushingly difficult they make it, it'll just be outgeared in a day or two. Then you'll be complaining again.

That said, if anything is "everyman" content, questing is it - it's the bulk of the game's narrative. Great great grandma should be able to complete at least large majority of it.

[Tiev]

Stop trying to fuck with threat. Trying to manage threat is NOT FUN. Its not fun as a dps to have to throttle, its not fun as a tank to have to hold threat and mitigate/position. Stop the bullshit.

It was a lot of fun to me in Vanilla/BC as one of the few warrior tanks who could =P I also hardly ever had to ask for the infamous "2 sunders".
However, actively taking care of my own vulnerability at all times is also fun, so I'm fine either way.


I actually find dpsing VERY boring though. So maybe my brain is just wired differently.

Oh and btw: I also loved dungeons like heroic Shadow Lab. You couldn't rush anything. if you did, you'd die. It just made the whole thing feel more noteworthy.

Also the fact that you pretty much had to runs these dungeons to get into pre-kara Gear so it wasn't a "valor rush dungeon". It was the "event of the day" pretty much.

They also had a daily reset timer. So it didn't matter how fast you could run a single dungeon. You could only run that dungeon once per day anyway.

[Whales96]

Stop trying to fuck with threat. Trying to manage threat is NOT FUN. Its not fun as a dps to have to throttle, its not fun as a tank to have to hold threat and mitigate/position. Stop the bullshit.

You'd rather tanks do nothing and get bored out of their skulls?

[FobManX]

Heroics being easy once you overgear them is fine. The problem is MOP heroics were too easy even for fresh 90s. But then again in Cata, you had hard Heroics and people complained. Hard heroics just aren't conducive to the LFG queue system.

[Mongoose19]

This game isn't BC anymore and never will be again.

Sadly dumbed down game is the way to go.

[zoomgpally]

So raiding is more or less ok, could use some tweaks but I am not going to bitch about that right now.

Disregard raiding for a moment, the other meat of the game is spoiled. 5 mans are ridiculously easy, need to tuned harder for sure. Same with questing. Both offer no challenge at all and it really puts me off. Trades and economy is not great either. Some clear improvements would be nice.

I would like if Blizzard would commit to:

1. Upping difficulty level in 5 man dungeons, bring back CC as well, meaning you have to use it to get through it.

2. I do not like the way talents are done, ok there, I said it. I miss trees and if you cant bring those back try something better than the current.

3. Threat needs to be a thing again.

4. The classes are all the same now. Was defined roles so bad before? I say that was awesome.

You know what is funny? Blizz plans to lower dps numbers and that in itself might be something I might re-sub for. That and harder quest/5 man content.

They are tuned high for the reward.
If you want valor you go hc scenarios, if you want gear you do timeless.
Heroic dungeons are only useful for justice points, which is only useful for leveling gear.
Edit: Also, was it "awesome" to have multiple useless specs in the game? Or not being much more than a mana battery in raids?

[Grogo]

It's funny though, after each expansion the next generation becomes less concerned about skill and more concerned about instant gratification. WoW is currently a generation Mcdonalds generation.

So far I have heard in this thread, XX is too hard we want to DPS and it takes time. Or you complain about time regarding it. But most want to take skill out of the game now. They want the 5 mans easy and the loot for free.

Why did this happen and why are we listening to that group? I do not get it. Can someone explain why having 5 mans easy is a good thing? How boring and generic do you want things to get? Seriously, I just dont get the concept.

So 5 mans are easy because (fill in the blanks)

[Tomana]

1. Upping difficulty level in 5 man dungeons, bring back CC as well, meaning you have to use it to get through it.

They tried in Cata and it was a very bad idea that backfired on them. I do hope they won't walk on that rake again, although some stuff I see planned for WOD makes me question that.

4. The classes are all the same now. Was defined roles so bad before? I say that was awesome.

Yes, get 4 shamans for SWP or die was awesome. Oh wait, no it was completely idiotic and let to progress nights being cancelled.
But OK, we're talking about 5-mans, fine. Problem is, "defined roles" is meaningless. In practice, some DPS specs were screwed with 5-mans because they didn't have buffs and/or CC. That is not awesome, either.

- - - Updated - - -

It's funny though, after each expansion the next generation becomes less concerned about skill and more concerned about instant gratification.

Welcome to modern world. Sorry, I do not have an alternate Earth for you.

So 5 mans are easy because (fill in the blanks)

5-mans are easy because they're the first tier of group content available to players. The further it go, the harder it gets.
Otherwise, we get situations like BC where I had my first Kara epics before having a 5-man heroic piece because it was simpler to bring a 3rd healer into Kara than try to do a heroic instance.

[Whales96]

They tried in Cata and it was a very bad idea that backfired on them. I do hope they won't walk on that rake again, although some stuff I see planned for WOD makes me question that.


Yes, get 4 shamans for SWP or die was awesome. Oh wait, no it was completely idiotic and let to progress nights being cancelled.
But OK, we're talking about 5-mans, fine. Problem is, "defined roles" is meaningless. In practice, some DPS specs were screwed with 5-mans because they didn't have buffs and/or CC. That is not awesome, either.

- - - Updated - - -


Welcome to modern world. Sorry, I do not have an alternate Earth for you.


5-mans are easy because they're the first tier of group content available to players. The further it go, the harder it gets.
Otherwise, we get situations like BC where I had my first Kara epics before having a 5-man heroic piece because it was simpler to bring a 3rd healer into Kara than try to do a heroic instance.

You say it backfired, but people just cried because they didn't want to put effort. Maybe they're ready to try again?

[Tomana]

You say it backfired, but people just cried because they didn't want to put effort. Maybe they're ready to try again?

Unless you can present evidence that playerbase and their attitude changed radically since early Cata, I'm not buying it.

[Raeln]

So raiding is more or less ok, could use some tweaks but I am not going to bitch about that right now.

Disregard raiding for a moment, the other meat of the game is spoiled. 5 mans are ridiculously easy, need to tuned harder for sure. Same with questing. Both offer no challenge at all and it really puts me off. Trades and economy is not great either. Some clear improvements would be nice.

5-mans are ridiculously easy partly due to how raid gear inflates character power so greatly.

Unless Blizzard scales gear down for 5-mans (which I would not recommend), raid gear will always marginalize 5-mans.

I would rather see 1 tier of end-game gear per patch and all forms of endgame content award the same gear. This would limit gear inflation and help to keep expansion endgame content more relevant at least longer.

I would like if Blizzard would commit to:

1. Upping difficulty level in 5 man dungeons, bring back CC as well, meaning you have to use it to get through it.

The only increased difficulty I would not mind seeing is if they created a Mythic 5-man version that is not accessible through the LFD tool. Also, the mythic difficulty cannot award better gear, but it could award gear more reliably (higher drop percentage).

2. I do not like the way talents are done, ok there, I said it. I miss trees and if you cant bring those back try something better than the current.

I vastly prefer the MoP talent system.

Spending a point for a 1% increase in something passive was and is boring. You can still find those talent systems in TOR and Rift if you so desire. They suck compared to MoP.

3. Threat needs to be a thing again.

Actually, tanking in general needs to stop being a thing.

4. The classes are all the same now. Was defined roles so bad before? I say that was awesome.

Exaggeration. Classes are not the same now - they have never been. When they were more different, what ended up happening is groups holding spots for certain classes purely for the buff they brought. IE: shamans for lust.

Much fun to be had, as long as you were playing a shaman.

You know what is funny? Blizz plans to lower dps numbers and that in itself might be something I might re-sub for. That and harder quest/5 man content.

It's difficult for me to reconcile why anyone wants "challenge" in their online game that already involves interacting with dozens of other players to accomplish things.

So tell me Grogo, at what point is it difficult enough? when you have to have a full group just to quest at all? A game already tried that and WoW nearly put them out of business.

[zoomgpally]

It's funny though, after each expansion the next generation becomes less concerned about skill and more concerned about instant gratification. WoW is currently a generation Mcdonalds generation.

So far I have heard in this thread, XX is too hard we want to DPS and it takes time. Or you complain about time regarding it. But most want to take skill out of the game now. They want the 5 mans easy and the loot for free.

Why did this happen and why are we listening to that group? I do not get it. Can someone explain why having 5 mans easy is a good thing? How boring and generic do you want things to get? Seriously, I just dont get the concept.

So 5 mans are easy because (fill in the blanks)

Why are you not whining about being able to oneshot level 10 mobs and get free loot?
Ohwait... heroic dungeons drop heroic warforged, i forgot...

[Varabently]

I dunno if you've ever been an undergeared tank, but threat is still sort of a thing until you are up to par. I ran a heroic with my terribly geared warrior and a heroic-geared DPS pulled aggro a few times. This is super extreme example of course, but it DOES still matter, just to a much lesser degree. I mean in MC we had to constantly feint/feign death and such to avoid pulling aggro. I think there's a middle ground to be found.

I totally agree that 5 man content should be more difficult. It should prepare you for raids, not shower you with gear. Mechanics should matter, CC should be necessary and strategy shoudl be a part of the equation. "Heroics" are bullshit in MOP and that's sad. You shouldn't have to do "challenge mode" to find a challenge. That should be uber difficult mode, not timed mode IMO. Heroics should be on par with flex and challenge modes should be on par with heroic/mythic raiding IMO. No bullshit 5 man loot pinatas. Scenarios should be where the easy content is since you dont need a tank or healer anyway. Heroic scenarios would be considerably harder.

That's how I'd break down the difficulty. I think one of the reasons I liked TBC so much was the difficult 5 man content. It was FUN, not faceroll.

[Raeln]

You say it backfired, but people just cried because they didn't want to put effort. Maybe they're ready to try again?

The real question to ask is if Blizzard tried to make Cata dungeons more difficult by using the correct mechanics. The large point of frustration for my friends was 1-shot mechanics. Miss the interrupt and boom, tank bites the dust. Not exactly engaging content there.

I'm not a fan of timed content either - it's a quick way to encourage me to just walk away. I'm a fan of strategy and I find it difficult to wrap my head around really involving a whole lot of strategy in group content when Blizzard pretty much cut the CC/buff/debuff role from the game altogether. I'm talking about classes like the enchanter/bard from EQ1 or the Archon from Rift. Classes where their job is to control the flow of the battle and make their allies perform better.

Instead, we have everyone competing on a DPS meter. Even the tanks compete now from AoE damage. Yay, worshipping a meter is so fun.

[Teph]

i'd love some more 3+ quests /areas with shiny rewards. i love it in every new game when i found some group quests.

[gamingmuscle]

It's funny though, after each expansion the next generation becomes less concerned about skill and more concerned about instant gratification. WoW is currently a generation Mcdonalds generation.

So far I have heard in this thread, XX is too hard we want to DPS and it takes time. Or you complain about time regarding it. But most want to take skill out of the game now. They want the 5 mans easy and the loot for free.

Why did this happen and why are we listening to that group? I do not get it. Can someone explain why having 5 mans easy is a good thing? How boring and generic do you want things to get? Seriously, I just dont get the concept.

So 5 mans are easy because (fill in the blanks)

5 mans have always been easy. They only ever require minor amounts of cc while still in dungeon/leveling gear.

[Dole4011]

Amen good sir. Maybe they could use this scaling Tech for Mythic Dungeons & those are the new Challenge Modes hopefully.

Haha. I guess my sarcasm wasn't apparent.

[Raeln]

i'd love some more 3+ quests /areas with shiny rewards. i love it in every new game when i found some group quests.

It's the opposite for me. Most of the time my initial reaction is, "crap, a 3-man quest". I mean, it's not too bad at the beginning of the patch when the first wave of players in the zone and there's a lot of players; however, 6-months later on alt #2 - it can turn into a real challenge to find 2 other souls (or friends) to come out to the backwoods and kill the mob for a gear reward that will be replaced 20 minutes later or by just running a dungeon.